I wonder how happy people are after sex changes. I’ve heard that the suicide rate among post-ops is high, but I don’t know of any metrics.

One of my former fullbacks moved to Cali and is now transitioning, and I think is relatively happy with the change, but I don’t know for sure.

(02-17-2018 12:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wonder how happy people are after sex changes. I’ve heard that the suicide rate among post-ops is high, but I don’t know of any metrics.

One of my former fullbacks moved to Cali and is now transitioning, and I think is relatively happy with the change, but I don’t know for sure.

Ive heard the same thing in regard to the level of regret afterwards. I also have nothing to back that up other than stuff Ive read and heard on podcasts. A quick google search on the subject finds most articles claim they are generally happier..but..also most of those articles are from sources one would think could be biased. Looks kinda both ways actually...pro and con. Maybe our resident "Alphabet king" can shed light on this. Tom is usually pretty well informed.

The "who pays for it" was the big question for the military that was in the news over the last several months.

The problem is where people landed on the "who pays for it" also seems to socially label them as pro-trans or bigots. Which is illogical at best.

(02-17-2018 12:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I wonder how happy people are after sex changes. I’ve heard that the suicide rate among post-ops is high, but I don’t know of any metrics.

The suicide rate remains virtually identical according to most studies and there are many instances of "regret" particularly among males who transition to female.

(02-16-2018 06:14 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Um, body mutilation does nothing to treat a mental disorder. Duh.

Right... first you start dressing like the opposite sex, but you still feel incomplete. Then you get the surgery, but you still aren't completely M/F, so you still feel incomplete. The suicide rate of post-op trans people is alarmingly high.

How much of it has to do with bullying vs feeling like you're STILL in the wrong body after doing everything humanly possible to change is anyone's guess, but it is pretty clear that the surgery is not fully helping these people and may even be harming them.

(02-16-2018 05:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This is a question I always had about being Trans. If you think you were born with the wrong sex organs and sex hormones - who ultimately pays for the reassignment surgery? Is it done 100% by the person wanting the surgery? Is it subsidized heavily by the healthcare insurance provider? Is it paid for primarily by the state and/or Federal Gov't? Who is responsible for shouldering these costs?

Ethically speaking, if you feel you were not born "correctly", then it's 100% on you to shoulder the cost if you want reassignment surgery and the hormone treatments for the rest of your life. If you can find charities to help fund the surgery, gofundme or some other online site then kudos to you. However, if you are getting this surgery through health insurance and thus increasing the costs for all of us, or even worse having the gov't pay for your surgery, then I think it's highly unethical to expect that. Based on what I've been seeing on the web right now, WE are subsidizing gender transitions. IMHO, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by our gov't, and it's morally repugnant to force us to pay for it. None of this is medically necessary.

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/medicare

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-m...SKBN1DF0CE

The overwhelming majority of these surgeries are paid for by the patient.

I will note, that if one says

1) A person must transition surgically to gain access to bathrooms, drivers licenses, etc. consistent with one's gender

AND

2) Want to make it next to impossible (Transgendered persons cannot get employment to pay for such surgery in the vast majority of cases, because of rampant employment discrimination that many anti-Trans activists openly advocate).

Then it appears that the real motivation is cruelty towards Trans persons.

What does this mean specifically? Are we talking 100% paid for by the patient without any assistance from health insurance provider at all? Or are we talking about patients paying the deductibles and premiums only? Because if it's the latter - even at partial coverage of all procedures needed - that cost will be passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher premium payments and/or higher deductibles in order to shoulder the costs for a small minority.

(02-16-2018 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This is a question I always had about being Trans. If you think you were born with the wrong sex organs and sex hormones - who ultimately pays for the reassignment surgery? Is it done 100% by the person wanting the surgery? Is it subsidized heavily by the healthcare insurance provider? Is it paid for primarily by the state and/or Federal Gov't? Who is responsible for shouldering these costs?

Ethically speaking, if you feel you were not born "correctly", then it's 100% on you to shoulder the cost if you want reassignment surgery and the hormone treatments for the rest of your life. If you can find charities to help fund the surgery, gofundme or some other online site then kudos to you. However, if you are getting this surgery through health insurance and thus increasing the costs for all of us, or even worse having the gov't pay for your surgery, then I think it's highly unethical to expect that. Based on what I've been seeing on the web right now, WE are subsidizing gender transitions. IMHO, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by our gov't, and it's morally repugnant to force us to pay for it. None of this is medically necessary.

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/medicare

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-m...SKBN1DF0CE

Does insurance pay for braces, tooth implants, breast implants, etc.? No, so why should it start? I don't just say no, but heck no.

(02-16-2018 06:30 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Tom this is a bridge to far for some. Some people simply cannot let go of beliefs instilled in them from childhood.
Science has far outpaced some peoples ability to adapt their thinking to newly discovered facts.

They're not mean, just scarred.

When a man who changes to a woman can have a baby on his own then I will accept your science BS. You must be a millennial, are you? Do you still live with mama? Or the most important question: do you own a pink hat?

(02-17-2018 01:36 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 05:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This is a question I always had about being Trans. If you think you were born with the wrong sex organs and sex hormones - who ultimately pays for the reassignment surgery? Is it done 100% by the person wanting the surgery? Is it subsidized heavily by the healthcare insurance provider? Is it paid for primarily by the state and/or Federal Gov't? Who is responsible for shouldering these costs?

Ethically speaking, if you feel you were not born "correctly", then it's 100% on you to shoulder the cost if you want reassignment surgery and the hormone treatments for the rest of your life. If you can find charities to help fund the surgery, gofundme or some other online site then kudos to you. However, if you are getting this surgery through health insurance and thus increasing the costs for all of us, or even worse having the gov't pay for your surgery, then I think it's highly unethical to expect that. Based on what I've been seeing on the web right now, WE are subsidizing gender transitions. IMHO, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by our gov't, and it's morally repugnant to force us to pay for it. None of this is medically necessary.

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/medicare

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-m...SKBN1DF0CE

The overwhelming majority of these surgeries are paid for by the patient.

I will note, that if one says

1) A person must transition surgically to gain access to bathrooms, drivers licenses, etc. consistent with one's gender

AND

2) Want to make it next to impossible (Transgendered persons cannot get employment to pay for such surgery in the vast majority of cases, because of rampant employment discrimination that many anti-Trans activists openly advocate).

Then it appears that the real motivation is cruelty towards Trans persons.

What does this mean specifically? Are we talking 100% paid for by the patient without any assistance from health insurance provider at all? Or are we talking about patients paying the deductibles and premiums only? Because if it's the latter - even at partial coverage of all procedures needed - that cost will be passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher premium payments and/or higher deductibles in order to shoulder the costs for a small minority.

Very few insurance policies cover reassignment surgery.

But so long as we're talking about cost transfers

Lets just ban the sport of football, which causes all kinds of medical costs passed on to us....and alcohol, and sugary drinks, and transfats, and cigarettes....and having a firearm in the house.

(02-17-2018 01:48 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-17-2018 01:36 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 05:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This is a question I always had about being Trans. If you think you were born with the wrong sex organs and sex hormones - who ultimately pays for the reassignment surgery? Is it done 100% by the person wanting the surgery? Is it subsidized heavily by the healthcare insurance provider? Is it paid for primarily by the state and/or Federal Gov't? Who is responsible for shouldering these costs?

Ethically speaking, if you feel you were not born "correctly", then it's 100% on you to shoulder the cost if you want reassignment surgery and the hormone treatments for the rest of your life. If you can find charities to help fund the surgery, gofundme or some other online site then kudos to you. However, if you are getting this surgery through health insurance and thus increasing the costs for all of us, or even worse having the gov't pay for your surgery, then I think it's highly unethical to expect that. Based on what I've been seeing on the web right now, WE are subsidizing gender transitions. IMHO, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by our gov't, and it's morally repugnant to force us to pay for it. None of this is medically necessary.

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/medicare

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-m...SKBN1DF0CE

The overwhelming majority of these surgeries are paid for by the patient.

I will note, that if one says

1) A person must transition surgically to gain access to bathrooms, drivers licenses, etc. consistent with one's gender

AND

2) Want to make it next to impossible (Transgendered persons cannot get employment to pay for such surgery in the vast majority of cases, because of rampant employment discrimination that many anti-Trans activists openly advocate).

Then it appears that the real motivation is cruelty towards Trans persons.

What does this mean specifically? Are we talking 100% paid for by the patient without any assistance from health insurance provider at all? Or are we talking about patients paying the deductibles and premiums only? Because if it's the latter - even at partial coverage of all procedures needed - that cost will be passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher premium payments and/or higher deductibles in order to shoulder the costs for a small minority.

Very few insurance policies cover reassignment surgery.

But so long as we're talking about cost transfers

Lets just ban the sport of football, which causes all kinds of medical costs passed on to us....and alcohol, and sugary drinks, and transfats, and cigarettes....and having a firearm in the house.

The military health coverage/plan does. Which is a huge point of contention in terms of enlisting those members. For members pre-op, they can currently join, go through the process of being diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and request gender re-assignment which eventually includes the surgeries (it's not just one, but many) and medical treatments required. The contention is due to will these individuals who may not be able to afford such costs on their own, join for that benefit. Regardless on how you feel on that, the contention then compounds itself for the "nay" voters because there are other benefits that folks join the military (with no intention of making it a career, i.e. 4-8 years usually) to receive such as college being paid for through the Post-9/11 GI Bill. During which, the military will pay very large portion of the college costs plus give you living expenses at the E-5 rate. So if you tell people you can't sign up for the military to cover an elective medical surgery "benefit", it opens up a large can of worms of other "benefits" the military covers.

If one believes it is an illness/mental disorder you logically must believe that it should be covered.

If you believe it is normal/a choice then no provider should cover it.

It’s an illness in my opinion—an irregularity not dissimilar to Down syndrome or some other disability. Trans people should be treated like any other disabled person and afforded that level of treatment.

(02-17-2018 01:42 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 06:30 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Tom this is a bridge to far for some. Some people simply cannot let go of beliefs instilled in them from childhood.
Science has far outpaced some peoples ability to adapt their thinking to newly discovered facts.

They're not mean, just scarred.

When a man who changes to a woman can have a baby on his own then I will accept your science BS. You must be a millennial, are you? Do you still live with mama? Or the most important question: do you own a pink hat?

Trying to ridicule is such a childish way to respond. It's a typical response from people who don't have anything to say.

(02-17-2018 03:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-17-2018 01:42 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 06:30 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Tom this is a bridge to far for some. Some people simply cannot let go of beliefs instilled in them from childhood.
Science has far outpaced some peoples ability to adapt their thinking to newly discovered facts.

They're not mean, just scarred.

When a man who changes to a woman can have a baby on his own then I will accept your science BS. You must be a millennial, are you? Do you still live with mama? Or the most important question: do you own a pink hat?

Trying to ridicule is such a childish way to respond. It's a typical response from people who don't have anything to say.

Calls somebody scared...

Butthurt when they respond...

Checks out!

(02-17-2018 01:48 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-17-2018 01:36 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 05:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2018 03:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  This is a question I always had about being Trans. If you think you were born with the wrong sex organs and sex hormones - who ultimately pays for the reassignment surgery? Is it done 100% by the person wanting the surgery? Is it subsidized heavily by the healthcare insurance provider? Is it paid for primarily by the state and/or Federal Gov't? Who is responsible for shouldering these costs?

Ethically speaking, if you feel you were not born "correctly", then it's 100% on you to shoulder the cost if you want reassignment surgery and the hormone treatments for the rest of your life. If you can find charities to help fund the surgery, gofundme or some other online site then kudos to you. However, if you are getting this surgery through health insurance and thus increasing the costs for all of us, or even worse having the gov't pay for your surgery, then I think it's highly unethical to expect that. Based on what I've been seeing on the web right now, WE are subsidizing gender transitions. IMHO, this is GROSS NEGLIGENCE by our gov't, and it's morally repugnant to force us to pay for it. None of this is medically necessary.

https://transequality.org/know-your-rights/medicare

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-m...SKBN1DF0CE

The overwhelming majority of these surgeries are paid for by the patient.

I will note, that if one says

1) A person must transition surgically to gain access to bathrooms, drivers licenses, etc. consistent with one's gender

AND

2) Want to make it next to impossible (Transgendered persons cannot get employment to pay for such surgery in the vast majority of cases, because of rampant employment discrimination that many anti-Trans activists openly advocate).

Then it appears that the real motivation is cruelty towards Trans persons.

What does this mean specifically? Are we talking 100% paid for by the patient without any assistance from health insurance provider at all? Or are we talking about patients paying the deductibles and premiums only? Because if it's the latter - even at partial coverage of all procedures needed - that cost will be passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher premium payments and/or higher deductibles in order to shoulder the costs for a small minority.

Very few insurance policies cover reassignment surgery.

But so long as we're talking about cost transfers

Lets just ban the sport of football, which causes all kinds of medical costs passed on to us....and alcohol, and sugary drinks, and transfats, and cigarettes....and having a firearm in the house.

You can responsibly consume sugary drinks, alcohol and foods with saturated and trans fats if done so in moderation. These examples aren't directly comparable to reassignment surgery. Even if you consider alcohol - there are numerous studies that show it to have a health benefit when used in moderation. Firearms in the home can be stored and used responsibly and lawfully. Again, no comparison to gender reassignment surgery. Playing tackle football at the collegiate and pro levels - I believe is an activity where medical costs should only be paid for by universities, professional teams (and NFL) and the players. The one sticky situation that i see is tobacco. I can see where people who engage in smoking/chewing should shoulder 100% of the medical costs to using the products because there are zero redeeming values to using it. Even marijuana use has been shown to assist with pain management for some patients.

The biggest issue you run into with trying to draw an equivalence between gender reassignment surgery and other human activities is the trap of an infinite regress. If you think it through long enough, virtually every single choice we make could have a negative impact on our health that would be passed on to others because...the system is DESIGNED to share costs. Because of this alone, I didn't even have to go through any review of your examples. Which puts you back into the spot that gender reassignment surgery is a completely different entity to other human activities that can be done to excess. All of your other examples are reversible until you hit the point of no return (cancer from tobacco use, cirrhosis of the liver from alcohol, a bullet to the head from a firearm, etc). Reassignment surgery - OTOH - is not reversible when you view it practically.

(02-17-2018 03:21 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If one believes it is an illness/mental disorder you logically must believe that it should be covered.

If you believe it is normal/a choice then no provider should cover it.

It’s an illness in my opinion—an irregularity not dissimilar to Down syndrome or some other disability. Trans people should be treated like any other disabled person and afforded that level of treatment.

Except it's not a suitable treatment since it doesn't seem to help a lot of the time.