(02-23-2018 01:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote: Yes, seems like a nice thing to do. But if I don't believe I get eternal damnation? Not such a nice guy thing to do.
Surely you see the dichotomy here?
Actually, I see false dichotomy.
If I force somebody to do something the accountability lies with me. Free will means the accountability lies with the individual who made the choice.
If you get angry and drive your car into the side of your house that has nothing to do with me.
However, if I offered to pay to have your car and house fixed, then I don't see why you would consider me to be a bad guy.
I think the analogy would be more appropriate if your offer was "I'll fix the house for you if you ask, but if not I'll burn it down."
No, I don't think that's accurate.
Free will is just that -- you make your own decision.
Think about this: if we're automa-tons/robots who are just following commands then why do you or I think any of the resulting actions are wrong.
If you follow the command to NOT kill somebody but joe follows the command TO kill somebody, why do you care? Heck, how could you care?
We're following commands that our brain came up with a short time before we became aware of them. Most of us have a sense of what we think is fair and right. Those are our morals. If someone does something against those morals, like murdering someone, then we consider it "wrong". We also find the person likely dangerous to society - we don't want them to kill anyone else - so we lock them up, because we don't know how to fix the person.
But Hitler's brain came up with the idea that killing certain people was good for everyone else.
(02-23-2018 02:46 PM)umbluegray Wrote: Suffering and Evil: Part 1
Explanation why the argument fails.
Part of that assumes we have free will, which I, and many others do not think is correct. If god knows everything, he knows everything that we are going to do, therefore our decisions are already predetermined.
Pre-determined in you context seems to mean "guided".
Free will and guided are contradictory.
So let's go with your belief that we don't have free will.
What does that mean exactly? Are you saying that you have no control over what you're about to type in your reply to this post?
(02-23-2018 01:15 PM)Old Dominion Wrote: You guys are a trip. Punishment? for what? hell a literal place where people go to burn?? Come on people. If you can't let yourself see these are metaphors I feel for you.
Jesus death and resurrection was a metaphor for all of us. We all have eternal life. There's no Pearly Gates, no angels with harps, no burning in hell. We don't live our lives just to obtain some cosmic award. There are no winners and losers.
Again, a very immature level of understanding, based on a child's view of life. Be good, get a cookie, be bad, go to bed without dessert. This is not a contest to try and make God pleased with us.
You are loved, completely and without conditions. Nothing you can do will ever change that. and the Creator did not and does not now require a blood sacrifice to buy our way into "heaven".
That's a really scary thought when you consider the implications in society if everyone adopted this belief.
So a mass murderer escapes punishment and is rewarded the same as Mother Theresa.
And people wonder why there's evil in the world?
Live for yourself for tomorrow you die!
I'm not saying that at all. I wonder why people jump to such extreme examples? You and I both know there are consequences for every action.
The mass murderer will suffer what ever consequences they are going to. You and I can't begin as humans to understand what that might entail. In fact, because it's all so far over our heads, we were given a book with stories in it to help us understand in a very symbolic, metaphoric way.
My point is the consequences will not be based on anger or retribution ( those are human qualities, not God qualities)The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us.
Wait, are you talking about an after-life? That murderers will be taught how to live harmoniously with others in the afterlife?
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
So understanding the extent of your bad action is the worst punishment possible... meaning that punishment is worse than the punishment of eternal hell?
Going with that concept...
A teen-aged boy pressures a girl into sexual activity she really wasn't comfortable with
This emotionally scars her
She eventually marries but can't get past feelings of guilt mixed with feelings of being violated
It impacts her marriage
The teen-aged boy, who may now be a man, upon death will become aware of the pain he caused her and he'll bear the brunt of that awareness for eternity?
And this is a better approach than a loving God who forgives us of our transgressions?
(02-23-2018 02:46 PM)umbluegray Wrote: Suffering and Evil: Part 1
Explanation why the argument fails.
Alvin Plantinga is the one credited with the argument to solve the problem of evil that William Lain Craig is using for this video. The video makes more of the logical solution that it really is. The two parts to the Plantinga solution is 1) That it is impossible to create beings that have the freedom to choose good or evil but will always choose good and 2) the existence of pain and suffering in the world is a net benefit that will create more good than if the world existed with only goodness and no evil.
I believe point 2 is not actually correct in practice if it is "correct" solely on logic. Instinctively, a number of people do not believe in point 2 from a practical standpoint either. Every person who believes over half of the world will be going to hell - does not believe in point 2.
Are you quantifying "over half of the world will be going to hell" as a number and comparing that with a quantified value for the "net benefit"?
If so, I think those two values are apples-and-oranges.
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
Oh, I knew what he was posting all right. It was just one of those "say what?" moments. Just like when your wife tells you that your MIL will be coming and staying with you. You know what I mean. An unbelievable what in tarnation are you talking about, moment.
What I'd like to know is where he got this outlandish info. He will tell me I hope.
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
Oh, I knew what he was posting all right. It was just one of those "say what?" moments. Just like when your wife tells you that your MIL will be coming and staying with you. You know what I mean. An unbelievable what in tarnation are you talking about, moment.
What I'd like to know is where he got this outlandish info. He will tell me I hope.
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
Oh, I knew what he was posting all right. It was just one of those "say what?" moments. Just like when your wife tells you that your MIL will be coming and staying with you. You know what I mean. An unbelievable what in tarnation are you talking about, moment.
What I'd like to know is where he got this outlandish info. He will tell me I hope.
Tell me first what you consider outlandish.
My question is where does your idea originate? Bible? New Age? Hindu? Buddhist?
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
Oh, I knew what he was posting all right. It was just one of those "say what?" moments. Just like when your wife tells you that your MIL will be coming and staying with you. You know what I mean. An unbelievable what in tarnation are you talking about, moment.
What I'd like to know is where he got this outlandish info. He will tell me I hope.
Tell me first what you consider outlandish.
My question is where does your idea originate? Bible? New Age? Hindu? Buddhist?
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
So understanding the extent of your bad action is the worst punishment possible... meaning that punishment is worse than the punishment of eternal hell?
Going with that concept...
A teen-aged boy pressures a girl into sexual activity she really wasn't comfortable with
This emotionally scars her
She eventually marries but can't get past feelings of guilt mixed with feelings of being violated
It impacts her marriage
The teen-aged boy, who may now be a man, upon death will become aware of the pain he caused her and he'll bear the brunt of that awareness for eternity?
And this is a better approach than a loving God who forgives us of our transgressions?
Why would he have to wait until he dies to see the pain he caused? Who knows what events might transpire in his life to allow him to become aware of the pain he caused. I'm certainly not saying anyone's spirit suffers for eternity. I don't believe that and I do believe we are forgiven by a loving and merciful creator. That's why I don't believe in eternal damnation. That's a scare tactic designed by churches to use to control the flock. Some of our suffering is here in this world, in real time. Some may be beyond this physical experience.
My real point is that as humans, locked in these physical bodies with our limitations of intellect and inability to be fully aware, can not begin to understand what is beyond our ability to comprehend or even see. God is first and foremost unknowable with the intellect. God has to be felt to be known. The love a parent feels for their new born infant....that is closer to God than any reading of the bible.
(02-19-2018 12:10 PM)NIU007 Wrote: Sometimes I pity Steven Hawkins because he is suffering through his illness here on earth, a hell on earth really and yet because he favors being an atheist when he dies there will be another hell waiting for him.
This god guy sounds like a dick - "here Hawkins have some debilitating disease making your life a hell on earth, then off to another hell because your didn't thank me enough for your pain and suffering."
Sorry no dice. I hope my body fertilizes a big field of beautiful flowers. Flowers that science understands evolved over the millennium from nothing.
(02-19-2018 12:10 PM)NIU007 Wrote: Sometimes I pity Steven Hawkins because he is suffering through his illness here on earth, a hell on earth really and yet because he favors being an atheist when he dies there will be another hell waiting for him.
This god guy sounds like a dick - "here Hawkins have some debilitating disease making your life a hell on earth, then off to another hell because your didn't thank me enough for your pain and suffering."
Sorry no dice. I hope my body fertilizes a big field of beautiful flowers. Flowers that science understands evolved over the millennium from nothing.
You sure don't sound very evolved.
I disagree. I have opposbable thumbs and can use tools with the best monkeys out there....
(02-19-2018 12:10 PM)NIU007 Wrote: Sometimes I pity Steven Hawkins because he is suffering through his illness here on earth, a hell on earth really and yet because he favors being an atheist when he dies there will be another hell waiting for him.
This god guy sounds like a dick - "here Hawkins have some debilitating disease making your life a hell on earth, then off to another hell because your didn't thank me enough for your pain and suffering."
Sorry no dice. I hope my body fertilizes a big field of beautiful flowers. Flowers that science understands evolved over the millennium from nothing.
You sure don't sound very evolved.
I disagree. I have opposbable thumbs and can use tools with the best monkeys out there....