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The Atheist Movie
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #41
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 02:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:51 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:33 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:21 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 01:59 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The issue with this line of reasoning is that the same questions remain whether our universe was created by a higher power or if it did in fact come about from "nothing". Who created God? The argument Comfort presents is built on the premise of complexity - which I suspect is going to come from Michael Behe's "irreducible complexity" theory for why Intelligent Design trumps Evolution. That's getting ahead of ourselves here but not really according to Comfort because he's already set the table to conflate theories on origins with the theory of evolution.

Back on track. Comfort's case will be we were created because of the complexity of our universe, and that slight variations in the physical laws will cause our universe to be inhospitable to life. Considering how much life we've observed so far - the universe really IS INHOSPITABLE to life. But I digress... If the argument of complexity of our universe and earth specifically screams for a designer and a creator - then the argument is infinitely stronger for there to have been a designer and creator for God. This line of argumentation - IMHO - carries zero merit.

I'm at the 10:00 mark of the movie.

If this was a "being" it must be uncaused. If a being is not bound by time, that is, it's timeless, then "when" did the being begin?

That's kind of the point of "timeless".

Again, the same problem exists but only one step further removed. Let's just assume there is a realm beyond the timeless realm that was critical to creating the timeless realm. Since we're not talking about anything that can be tested or verified - then timeless beings were created by a timeless^2 being.

You're applying an infinite regress, a time concept, to a being outside of time.

How do we know such a concept exists?

Because time had a beginning. If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning time did not exist.

Anything that existed prior to the beginning of time is beyond/outside of time, i.e. timeless.
02-19-2018 03:49 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #42
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 03:36 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:25 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:17 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Life can't be created from non-life, but an invisible, omniscient, all-powerful being can?

Yes. Maybe invisible to you. Do you hear a dog whistle like a dog does?

Who is he not invisible to?

How would I know, above my pay grade.
02-19-2018 03:51 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 03:49 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:51 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:33 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:21 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  If this was a "being" it must be uncaused. If a being is not bound by time, that is, it's timeless, then "when" did the being begin?

That's kind of the point of "timeless".

Again, the same problem exists but only one step further removed. Let's just assume there is a realm beyond the timeless realm that was critical to creating the timeless realm. Since we're not talking about anything that can be tested or verified - then timeless beings were created by a timeless^2 being.

You're applying an infinite regress, a time concept, to a being outside of time.

How do we know such a concept exists?

Because time had a beginning. If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning time did not exist.

Anything that existed prior to the beginning of time is beyond/outside of time, i.e. timeless.

Is this in relation to the big bang? This may very well be just a marker and that time is actually a constant of the universe. The universe may in fact be a void and we are living inside a giant bubble. As of today, we have no idea. You can't say that time did not exist prior to the big bang because we have no idea what was happening prior to big bang. There could have been matter prior to the big bang. The big bang may have been made from the matter of an earlier universe that collapsed upon itself like a "big crunch".

I have no idea what was around before the big bang. To my knowledge, no one else does either.
02-19-2018 04:04 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #44
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 03:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  Do you specifically mean the human condition?

I do, yes. Only speaking for me.

I know the arguments why life is so bad but there is god, I just don't buy it and won't be convinced otherwise.

That's fine. You don't have to change your mind. And actually you're demonstrating the reason which effectively answers your question: free will.

There are several steps to move from an infinite being to the Christian God. Why not the god of some other religion? Or could it be a god that hasn't been identified yet?

But in the West we typically understand that we're talking about the God of Christianity.

Given this starting point, God could have created His people to either do His bidding or with free will.

I'll assume you're married or have a significant other. Could you force that person to love you? Or is love something which must be freely given? Without free will, there is no love.

You are exhibiting free will by making your own decision as to what you will believe. And people throughout history have exercised their own free will. The cumulative effect brings us to where we are today.
02-19-2018 04:16 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #45
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?

This sounds like you're really asking why does evil exist?

Without a God-like being let's roll back to materialism and nature.

Why is it cruel that an animal eats another animal? Why is it cruel that small children are killed by acts of nature?

Isn't nature the end that you're talking about? If nature is the end, how can you point to this or that and call it wrong?
02-19-2018 04:21 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #46
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:04 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:49 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:51 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:33 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Again, the same problem exists but only one step further removed. Let's just assume there is a realm beyond the timeless realm that was critical to creating the timeless realm. Since we're not talking about anything that can be tested or verified - then timeless beings were created by a timeless^2 being.

You're applying an infinite regress, a time concept, to a being outside of time.

How do we know such a concept exists?

Because time had a beginning. If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning time did not exist.

Anything that existed prior to the beginning of time is beyond/outside of time, i.e. timeless.

Is this in relation to the big bang? This may very well be just a marker and that time is actually a constant of the universe. The universe may in fact be a void and we are living inside a giant bubble. As of today, we have no idea. You can't say that time did not exist prior to the big bang because we have no idea what was happening prior to big bang. There could have been matter prior to the big bang. The big bang may have been made from the matter of an earlier universe that collapsed upon itself like a "big crunch".

I have no idea what was around before the big bang. To my knowledge, no one else does either.

Sure, there could've been matter prior to the big bang, but that view is not accepted by mainstream science.

As mentioned in the video below, cosmologists Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin proved "any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be eternal in the past, but must have an absolute beginning."

Vilenkin stated that scientists "can no longer hide behind a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning."




02-19-2018 04:33 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #47
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?


If you would just open the bible and read it, these questions are answered in great detail. Open minded people are willing to read it and consider it before deciding to dismiss it.

There was no death, pain or misery when we were made and put here. We brought those things into the world by defying and turning our back on our creator.

And if you have read the Word of God and how this ends, you would understand what a glorious outcome awaits those who simply accept Christ as their Savior.

What a simple and easy thing eternal salvation is. You don't have to do a list of things or be perfect, or never sin again, you just have to accept and believe in Christ with all your heart.

Yet many have hardened their hearts because they love themselves and their sin too much.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2018 04:54 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-19-2018 04:36 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #48
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:21 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?

This sounds like you're really asking why does evil exist?

Without a God-like being let's roll back to materialism and nature.

Why is it cruel that an animal eats another animal? Why is it cruel that small children are killed by acts of nature?

Isn't nature the end that you're talking about? If nature is the end, how can you point to this or that and call it wrong?


I can't think of anything crueller than all those things existing, but there being no God and no judge at the end of it.

No righteous judgement at all for mans horrific actions at the end.

THAT would be truly cruel. And its what atheists believe in.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2018 04:46 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-19-2018 04:40 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:33 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:04 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:49 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:51 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  You're applying an infinite regress, a time concept, to a being outside of time.

How do we know such a concept exists?

Because time had a beginning. If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning time did not exist.

Anything that existed prior to the beginning of time is beyond/outside of time, i.e. timeless.

Is this in relation to the big bang? This may very well be just a marker and that time is actually a constant of the universe. The universe may in fact be a void and we are living inside a giant bubble. As of today, we have no idea. You can't say that time did not exist prior to the big bang because we have no idea what was happening prior to big bang. There could have been matter prior to the big bang. The big bang may have been made from the matter of an earlier universe that collapsed upon itself like a "big crunch".

I have no idea what was around before the big bang. To my knowledge, no one else does either.

Sure, there could've been matter prior to the big bang, but that view is not accepted by mainstream science.

As mentioned in the video below, cosmologists Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin proved "any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be eternal in the past, but must have an absolute beginning."

Vilenkin stated that scientists "can no longer hide behind a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning."





We are thoroughly in the weeds in relation to the Ray Comfort movie - though granted I'm still around the 20:00 min mark where Ray is conducting more "man on the street" interviews about which came first the chicken or the egg...

But back to your points, I'm sure we are in 100% agreement that the universe we know - or possibly more accurately the current space/matter bubble we live in today - has an origin and follows scientific rules that we know and probably have yet to discover. My point in all of this is that we don't know anything about what it was like before the big bang. The only thing we can actually know about is what we can observe in the volume of matter and space created by the big bang.
02-19-2018 04:41 PM
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Post: #50
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:36 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?


If you would just open the bible and read it, these questions are answered in great detail.

Open minded people are willing to read it and consider it before deciding to dismiss it.

There was no death, pain or misery when we were made and put here. We brought those things into the world by defying and turning our back on our creator.

And if you have read the Word of God and how this ends, you would understand what a glorious outcome awaits those who simply accept Christ as their Savior.

What a simple and easy thing eternal salvation is. You don't have to do a list of things or be perfect, or never sin again, you just have to accept and believe in Christ with all your heart.

Yet many have hardened their hearts because they love themselves and their sin too much.

I grew up Catholic, and believed in god when I was a kid, just like I believed in Santa Claus. I just have seen no reason whatsoever to think something like that exists.
02-19-2018 04:55 PM
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Post: #51
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:41 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:33 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:04 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:49 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 02:55 PM)miko33 Wrote:  How do we know such a concept exists?

Because time had a beginning. If time had a beginning then prior to that beginning time did not exist.

Anything that existed prior to the beginning of time is beyond/outside of time, i.e. timeless.

Is this in relation to the big bang? This may very well be just a marker and that time is actually a constant of the universe. The universe may in fact be a void and we are living inside a giant bubble. As of today, we have no idea. You can't say that time did not exist prior to the big bang because we have no idea what was happening prior to big bang. There could have been matter prior to the big bang. The big bang may have been made from the matter of an earlier universe that collapsed upon itself like a "big crunch".

I have no idea what was around before the big bang. To my knowledge, no one else does either.

Sure, there could've been matter prior to the big bang, but that view is not accepted by mainstream science.

As mentioned in the video below, cosmologists Arvind Borde, Alan Guth and Alexander Vilenkin proved "any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be eternal in the past, but must have an absolute beginning."

Vilenkin stated that scientists "can no longer hide behind a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning."





We are thoroughly in the weeds in relation to the Ray Comfort movie - though granted I'm still around the 20:00 min mark where Ray is conducting more "man on the street" interviews about which came first the chicken or the egg...

But back to your points, I'm sure we are in 100% agreement that the universe we know - or possibly more accurately the current space/matter bubble we live in today - has an origin and follows scientific rules that we know and probably have yet to discover. My point in all of this is that we don't know anything about what it was like before the big bang. The only thing we can actually know about is what we can observe in the volume of matter and space created by the big bang.

Do any of us know anything? Well, I know my car payment is due the 1st of the month and that 2+2 = 4, but regarding what we're discussing, no.

But logic does indeed exist. Without it we can't discover anything.

Logic does tell us that those things which begin to exist had a beginning.

We also know that abstract concepts are a part of reality even though they are not material.

Dr. Peter Atkins stated that science is omnipotent and can account for everything. Dr. William Lane Craig challenged that statement.

Science presupposes logic and relies on it. Logic does not only apply to science. Logic gives us insight to some things which aren't accessible by the scientific method. That does not mean they are incorrect.



02-19-2018 04:55 PM
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Post: #52
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:55 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:36 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?


If you would just open the bible and read it, these questions are answered in great detail.

Open minded people are willing to read it and consider it before deciding to dismiss it.

There was no death, pain or misery when we were made and put here. We brought those things into the world by defying and turning our back on our creator.

And if you have read the Word of God and how this ends, you would understand what a glorious outcome awaits those who simply accept Christ as their Savior.

What a simple and easy thing eternal salvation is. You don't have to do a list of things or be perfect, or never sin again, you just have to accept and believe in Christ with all your heart.

Yet many have hardened their hearts because they love themselves and their sin too much.

I grew up Catholic, and believed in god when I was a kid, just like I believed in Santa Claus. I just have seen no reason whatsoever to think something like that exists.

You may not have a reason, but that does not mean the explanation is unreasonable.

Question: if Christianity were proven true, would you become a Christian?
02-19-2018 04:57 PM
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Post: #53
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:21 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?

This sounds like you're really asking why does evil exist?

Without a God-like being let's roll back to materialism and nature.

Why is it cruel that an animal eats another animal? Why is it cruel that small children are killed by acts of nature?

Isn't nature the end that you're talking about? If nature is the end, how can you point to this or that and call it wrong?

Why have pain in the world if it isn't necessary? These are simply animals minding their own business that didn't do anything wrong. That's my point. Also, nature as it stands is not the end that I'm talking about. That's what I am saying I disagree with.
02-19-2018 04:59 PM
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Post: #54
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:55 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  I grew up Catholic, and believed in god when I was a kid, just like I believed in Santa Claus. I just have seen no reason whatsoever to think something like that exists.



Growing up Catholic is meaningless, they don't even believe in the Bible, much less teach it. That is the case for a lot of protestant churches as well.

The reality is you have no reason NOT to believe God exists, He is visible in every aspect of creation.

The issues for you isn't really evidence, because you won't even read and examine the evidence you are given. If you have read the bible, you know the evidence in the OT is undeniable on infinite levels.

Your real issue is in your own heart, which is why you won;t even seriously examine the Bible or the evidence. You are scared to acknowledge Him at all because that means you have to acknowledge you will have to answer for your life and your choices at some point.

Self-deception is the easiest deception of all. I know because I fooled and lied to myself about it most of my life.
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2018 12:13 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-19-2018 05:01 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:57 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:55 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:36 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?


If you would just open the bible and read it, these questions are answered in great detail.

Open minded people are willing to read it and consider it before deciding to dismiss it.

There was no death, pain or misery when we were made and put here. We brought those things into the world by defying and turning our back on our creator.

And if you have read the Word of God and how this ends, you would understand what a glorious outcome awaits those who simply accept Christ as their Savior.

What a simple and easy thing eternal salvation is. You don't have to do a list of things or be perfect, or never sin again, you just have to accept and believe in Christ with all your heart.

Yet many have hardened their hearts because they love themselves and their sin too much.

I grew up Catholic, and believed in god when I was a kid, just like I believed in Santa Claus. I just have seen no reason whatsoever to think something like that exists.

You may not have a reason, but that does not mean the explanation is unreasonable.

Question: if Christianity were proven true, would you become a Christian?

If god appeared, and I could confirm that it wasn't a hoax or a trick, then I would believe in god.
02-19-2018 05:01 PM
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Post: #56
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 04:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:21 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?

This sounds like you're really asking why does evil exist?

Without a God-like being let's roll back to materialism and nature.

Why is it cruel that an animal eats another animal? Why is it cruel that small children are killed by acts of nature?

Isn't nature the end that you're talking about? If nature is the end, how can you point to this or that and call it wrong?

Why have pain in the world if it isn't necessary? These are simply animals minding their own business that didn't do anything wrong. That's my point. Also, nature as it stands is not the end that I'm talking about. That's what I am saying I disagree with.

There is a food chain, we are at the top of it and it benefits humanity. Pain? if you didn't feel pain little kids would burn their hands off playing with fire.
02-19-2018 05:02 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 05:01 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:55 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 04:36 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 03:27 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Not even just the human condition. Animals have to eat each other, sometimes the prey animal is still alive while it gets eaten. Why not just make everyone herbivores?

And why have small children too young to know anything get swept away by a tsunami and drowned with a couple hundred thousand other people?


If you would just open the bible and read it, these questions are answered in great detail.

Open minded people are willing to read it and consider it before deciding to dismiss it.

There was no death, pain or misery when we were made and put here. We brought those things into the world by defying and turning our back on our creator.

And if you have read the Word of God and how this ends, you would understand what a glorious outcome awaits those who simply accept Christ as their Savior.

What a simple and easy thing eternal salvation is. You don't have to do a list of things or be perfect, or never sin again, you just have to accept and believe in Christ with all your heart.

Yet many have hardened their hearts because they love themselves and their sin too much.

I grew up Catholic, and believed in god when I was a kid, just like I believed in Santa Claus. I just have seen no reason whatsoever to think something like that exists.



Growing up Catholic is meaningless, they don't even believe in the Bible, much less teach it.

The reality is you have no reason NOT to believe God exists, He is visible in every aspect of creation.

The issues for you isn't really evidence, because you won't even read and examine the evidence you are given. If you have read the bible, you know the evidence in the OT is undeniable on infinite levels.

Your real issue is in your own heart, which is why you won;t even seriously examine the Bible or the evidence. You are scared to acknowledge Him at all because that means you have to acknowledge you will have to answer for your life and your choices at some point.

Self-deception is the easiest deception of all. I know because I fooled and lied to myself about it most of my life.

What about all the stuff in the Old Testament? That is one vicious, angry god. Worse than anything I could ever do.
02-19-2018 05:03 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #58
RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 05:01 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  If god appeared, and I could confirm that it wasn't a hoax or a trick, then I would believe in god.


Actually you likely wouldn't. You might for a day or two, but most people would slowly go back to their old ways and old life.

You would very quickly convince yourself it was just a delusion or trick of some kind.

The issue is not evidence, the issue is in your heart.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2018 05:08 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-19-2018 05:05 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 05:05 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-19-2018 05:01 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  If god appeared, and I could confirm that it wasn't a hoax or a trick, then I would believe in god.


Actually you likely wouldn't. You might for a day or two, but most people would slowly go back to their old ways and old life.

You would very quickly convince yourself it was just a delusion or trick of some kind.

Well sure, if he just appeared as a floating head like in the Wizard of Oz, and didn't do anything to make me think it was real.
02-19-2018 05:10 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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RE: The Atheist Movie
(02-19-2018 05:03 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  What about all the stuff in the Old Testament? That is one vicious, angry god. Worse than anything I could ever do.


Actually it the most loving God anyone could ever imagine.

He loves man so much that he put man as the CENTER OF ALL CREATION. He made the entire universe as a backdrop for the earths sky.

He loved us so much, he even humbled HIMSELF to the point of being born into the flesh as a poor man, born in one of the smallest nations and towns in the world. Knowing he would be tortured and put to death in one of the cruellest ways possible, even though He was 100% innocent of all charges.

All just to justify mans sin before Him, to offer salvation, redemption and eternal life for all those who WILLINGLY choose Him over Satan and the world.

FREE WILL. That is true love. That is true compassion.

He not only offers salvation, redemption and eternal life, He offers to make us higher than even the Angles, to crown us with glory and honour, far more glorious than when He first made us. He is telling us literally, "Choose ME, and I will place you higher than all I make forever, even the Angels. You will literally become the sons of God"
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2018 05:29 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-19-2018 05:16 PM
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