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2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
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ken d Offline
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Post: #21
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.
02-25-2018 08:50 AM
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Pervis_Griffith Offline
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Post: #22
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 07:57 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:18 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:47 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Tbh I just pulled that list from various tweets. I don’t know the intricacies of each violation. Some are probably minor while others warrant a 2-year postseason ban (Arizona, Louisville, etc).

Based on past cases: If someone really just had a meal paid for, their team won't become ineligible or get banned. If a player took $1000 or more, then the team likely has to forfeit every game in which that player played but the team should escape additional harsh sanctions if there's no proof that any coaches knew and if they suspend the player as soon as the payoff information becomes known (e.g., San Diego State has a player who got $1400 according to the Yahoo report, and SDSU didn't allow him to play in Saturday's game).

If one or more of a team's coaches is involved in the payola, they'll likely get hammered and the involved coaches will get show-cause orders. Sean Miller could get 5 years or more.

Miller should spend at least 5 years in prison. No more of this garbage. I’d rather one of the Louisville crooks like Pitino, Petrino or Jurich was in prison too but Miller needs to be locked up. Arizona needs to be banned from tv and the NCAA tournament for 5 years.


03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao
02-25-2018 09:39 AM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.

I suppose that means there are two kinds of men, and two kinds of women: those who have cheated, and those who would cheat if they weren't so godawful ugly.

Whether sex or basketball, not everyone cheats.
02-25-2018 11:41 AM
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Section 200 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.

Sadly I agree. I'm not aware of anyone who would turn down $100k to go to college.
02-25-2018 11:52 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 09:39 AM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 07:57 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:18 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:47 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Tbh I just pulled that list from various tweets. I don’t know the intricacies of each violation. Some are probably minor while others warrant a 2-year postseason ban (Arizona, Louisville, etc).

Based on past cases: If someone really just had a meal paid for, their team won't become ineligible or get banned. If a player took $1000 or more, then the team likely has to forfeit every game in which that player played but the team should escape additional harsh sanctions if there's no proof that any coaches knew and if they suspend the player as soon as the payoff information becomes known (e.g., San Diego State has a player who got $1400 according to the Yahoo report, and SDSU didn't allow him to play in Saturday's game).

If one or more of a team's coaches is involved in the payola, they'll likely get hammered and the involved coaches will get show-cause orders. Sean Miller could get 5 years or more.

Miller should spend at least 5 years in prison. No more of this garbage. I’d rather one of the Louisville crooks like Pitino, Petrino or Jurich was in prison too but Miller needs to be locked up. Arizona needs to be banned from tv and the NCAA tournament for 5 years.


03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao

I’m pretty funny huh? Didn’t even try on that one.
02-25-2018 03:34 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.
I think some of the blue blood types have been paying players for a very very long time, which is how they stayed on top. It isn't about being good enough if you have pay em.
02-25-2018 03:36 PM
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rednblackattack Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 03:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 09:39 AM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 07:57 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 02:18 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 01:47 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Tbh I just pulled that list from various tweets. I don’t know the intricacies of each violation. Some are probably minor while others warrant a 2-year postseason ban (Arizona, Louisville, etc).

Based on past cases: If someone really just had a meal paid for, their team won't become ineligible or get banned. If a player took $1000 or more, then the team likely has to forfeit every game in which that player played but the team should escape additional harsh sanctions if there's no proof that any coaches knew and if they suspend the player as soon as the payoff information becomes known (e.g., San Diego State has a player who got $1400 according to the Yahoo report, and SDSU didn't allow him to play in Saturday's game).

If one or more of a team's coaches is involved in the payola, they'll likely get hammered and the involved coaches will get show-cause orders. Sean Miller could get 5 years or more.

Miller should spend at least 5 years in prison. No more of this garbage. I’d rather one of the Louisville crooks like Pitino, Petrino or Jurich was in prison too but Miller needs to be locked up. Arizona needs to be banned from tv and the NCAA tournament for 5 years.


03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao03-lmfao

I’m pretty funny huh? Didn’t even try on that one.

Because it was asanine
02-25-2018 09:17 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
I get that these rules are in place to prevent the whole unpaid student athlete system from collapsing. But does anyone else find it absurd that compensating the players -- even something as trivial as taking a prospect out to dinner -- is a crime, let alone one worthy of jail time?
02-25-2018 11:07 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #29
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 11:07 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  I get that these rules are in place to prevent the whole unpaid student athlete system from collapsing. But does anyone else find it absurd that compensating the players -- even something as trivial as taking a prospect out to dinner -- is a crime, let alone one worthy of jail time?

The crime is bribery.

Bribery is "the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official or other person in charge of a public or legal duty."

If you are in any way affiliated with an NCAA team, you have a legal duty to abide by the regulations of the institution and the NCAA.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2018 11:43 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
02-25-2018 11:39 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #30
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-24-2018 08:31 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Back-of-the-envelope, no research came up with this. Actually just eliminate the First Four (Last 4 In) to trim to 64 and the tournament’s completely fine.

Banned
ACC: Duke, North Carolina, Miami, Louisville, NC State, Clemson
Big East: Xavier, Seton Hall, Creighton
B1G: Michigan State, Maryland
BXII: Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma State
PAC: Arizona, USC, Washington, Utah
SEC: Auburn, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, LSU
AAC: Wichita State

1-seeds: Virginia (ACC), Villanova (Big East), Purdue (Big Ten), Texas Tech (BXII)
2-seeds: Cincinnati (American), Gonzaga (West Coast), Rhode Island (Atlantic 10), Tennessee (SEC)
3-seeds: West Virginia (1), Ohio State (2), Michigan (3), Arizona State (PAC)
4-seeds: Nevada (Mountain West), Butler (4), Florida State (5), Florida (6)
5-seeds: Missouri (7), Houston (8), Saint Mary’s (9), Texas A&M (10)
6-seeds: Arkansas (11), TCU (12), Oklahoma (13), Providence (14)
7-seeds: Kansas State (15), Virginia Tech (16), Baylor (17), Middle Tennessee (CUSA)
8-seeds: St Bonaventure (18), Syracuse (19), Loyola-Chicago (Missouri Valley), Boise State (20)
9-seeds: Marquette (21), Mississippi State (22), UCLA (23), Nebraska (24)
10-seeds: New Mexico State (WAC), Temple (25), Georgia (26), Penn State (27)
11-seeds: Notre Dame (28), Oregon (29), Stanford (30), Western Kentucky (31)
12-seeds: Buffalo (MAC), Colorado (32), Vermont (America East), South Dakota State (Summit)
13-seeds (Dayton): Central Florida vs Colorado, Tulsa vs Illinois State
13-seeds: Louisiana (Sun Belt), Murray State (Ohio Valley)
14-seeds: East Tennessee St, Rider, Charleston, Northern Kentucky
15-seeds: Bucknell, Santa Barbara, Winthrop, Montana
16-seeds: Harvard, Florida Gulf Coast
16-seeds (Dayton): Southern, Wagner, Nicholls, Savannah State

Why would Auburn be punished? We haven't used a single player reported in the probe. They've been ineligible since before the opening of the season. Whereas many on the list are still using players who are under investigation. The only coach in question was fired. While doubt about the program should probably persist, and deeper scrutiny is called for, the school's administration has seen to it that all in question have been eliminated. What else could be done? None of them have been proven guilty as of yet, but that didn't stop the school from holding them out of practice and play or dismissing the assistant in question.

Have the other schools done the same?
02-26-2018 12:26 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #31
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-25-2018 11:41 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.

I suppose that means there are two kinds of men, and two kinds of women: those who have cheated, and those who would cheat if they weren't so godawful ugly.

Whether sex or basketball, not everyone cheats.

Not everyone cheats. That is true. But, everyone sins. I promise you that every institution cuts corners on keeping the jocks eligible. Virtually all of them offer some form of illegal perk. But no, not all of them permit the cash to flow as obscenely as others. Face it guys, our whole society is corrupt. People get paid to look the other way while drugs are sold. People use influence and power to put political and legal pressure on their rivals in business or politics, beauty pageants are won by the daughters of the wealthy because of the entry fees for the larger pageants, public high schools fudge on the addresses of jocks they want to compete for them, or businessmen hire their parents to get them to move within the district. So whether it is small stuff or big stuff somebody is always trying to game the system.

Our society suffers these things because at its core decency and appropriateness have long vanished. Churches are social clubs and not havens of assistance for the widows, orphans, poor, sick, and foreigners within our gates. Segregation still exists if you can afford a private enough club to hide behind, and law is settled usually by the one who can afford the best attorney. The poor who are broke to begin with will never dig out from under the endless fines and fees that will accompany the result of a public defense.

The trick to a happy life in the United States in 2018 is to not aim too high, do your job, don't complain about anyone else at your workplace, let alone management, and don't outshine the idiot above you. Attend church to be seen in the right place by all of those who use their attendance to bolster their leadership in the local community, and whatever else you do have the same prejudices as wealthiest in your community but only express them on the links where nobody can be quoted. Why? Because if you ever shine a light on their hypocrisy you will be the one labeled and punished, not the guilty.

I've mentioned it before but I followed up on allegations of impropriety for almost 2 decades and only ever found one coach of a major program who apparently had not violated any rules. Bill Curry was about as clean as you would find, but then that's why the Bama faithful wanted him gone. Not beating Auburn was just a convenient excuse. I don't know if he was clean at Bama or not, but he was clean at Georgia Tech. Nobody else recruiting the area I covered whether from the SWC, Big 8, ACC, or SEC, or the main Big 10 schools were clean. The really disgusting part is that since that time things have only gotten worse. We were no longer talking cars and cash, but bling and women and any other form of immorality that would have, should have, turned the stomachs of alumni everywhere. But the media was making oodles on these schools and the leaders of the schools didn't want their images tarnished on their watch. So, the media didn't follow up, the NCAA looked the other way, conferences got more sophisticated in dealing with petty conflicts within their own ranks to avoid extra scrutiny, presidents looked the other way during recruiting so as to maintain plausible deniability, assistant coaches took the battle damage for the head guys, and everyone let the money roll. So nobody dared to speak up. If they did they were quickly labeled as a disgruntled and malignant person, or discredited some other way.

How do you think things got so out of control at Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor, and with the Winston era at F.S.U., or the Franklin era at Vanderbilt? A callousness had to grow within the institutions before behavior that grossly abhorrent had been tolerated long enough to warrant a cover up or institutional indifference!

Our sports are just one huge screwed up example of our whole society's rottenness. From the Supreme Court ruling that imminent domain could be used for private development if it raised the tax base, all the way to the junkie on the street we witness how corrupt things are every day, and do nothing. We do nothing out of a sense of futility, helplessness, fear, moral indifference, or because we participate willingly in it in some fashion or another.

After all at the end of the day if you have hung a print of the winning touchdown, or the shot that made your team a champion, and you knew what the players were receiving in the way of perks, illegal inducements, or worse scheduled hook ups, or local police protection for the commission of property crimes or sexual assaults, then you are complicit in all of it. Just like you are when you witness bullying, unwanted sexual advances, harassment, or corruption in your work place and do nothing.

Part of our problem today is that we want justice for our family, but when society's ills affect our neighbor it is suddenly just their problem. Because we don't stand together for what is right, we live with the affliction of corruption daily. It's sad, and I don't know what it will take to change it, but I do know whatever it is that brings change has to start with each of us saying enough! And then encouraging our neighbors to do the same.

So I find a certain level of hypocrisy in most of these threads. If you are asking for change then so be it, I'm on board. But if you are just seeking vengeance against another program or region because you feel that will give you an edge, or benefit your own program, then the threads are disingenuous. There are very very few, clean athletic programs where the student athletes are expected to perform normally in the classroom. I'll give those schools the permission to cast stones. The rest just need to join the stone tossers and demand cleaner programs. If we don't then we have gotten what we deserve. And the oldest claim in the world is still invalid. "We only did it because everybody else was doing it too!"

But if we start with sports, then let us gain the guts necessary to carry the clean up to our city, county, state, and federal governments. When those entities are clean then cleaning crime from the streets will be a lot easier to accomplish. But if we won't do it over the most trivial of matters then we won't do it over the big ones.
02-26-2018 01:12 AM
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Jjoey52 Offline
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Post: #32
2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
Go back to the Wooden dynasty at UCLA. Sam Gilbert was a huge alumni donor and it was said he took care of the players while Wooden coached them.


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02-26-2018 01:40 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-26-2018 01:12 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:41 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.

I suppose that means there are two kinds of men, and two kinds of women: those who have cheated, and those who would cheat if they weren't so godawful ugly.

Whether sex or basketball, not everyone cheats.

Not everyone cheats. That is true. But, everyone sins. I promise you that every institution cuts corners on keeping the jocks eligible. Virtually all of them offer some form of illegal perk. But no, not all of them permit the cash to flow as obscenely as others. Face it guys, our whole society is corrupt. People get paid to look the other way while drugs are sold. People use influence and power to put political and legal pressure on their rivals in business or politics, beauty pageants are won by the daughters of the wealthy because of the entry fees for the larger pageants, public high schools fudge on the addresses of jocks they want to compete for them, or businessmen hire their parents to get them to move within the district. So whether it is small stuff or big stuff somebody is always trying to game the system.

Our society suffers these things because at its core decency and appropriateness have long vanished. Churches are social clubs and not havens of assistance for the widows, orphans, poor, sick, and foreigners within our gates. Segregation still exists if you can afford a private enough club to hide behind, and law is settled usually by the one who can afford the best attorney. The poor who are broke to begin with will never dig out from under the endless fines and fees that will accompany the result of a public defense.

The trick to a happy life in the United States in 2018 is to not aim too high, do your job, don't complain about anyone else at your workplace, let alone management, and don't outshine the idiot above you. Attend church to be seen in the right place by all of those who use their attendance to bolster their leadership in the local community, and whatever else you do have the same prejudices as wealthiest in your community but only express them on the links where nobody can be quoted. Why? Because if you ever shine a light on their hypocrisy you will be the one labeled and punished, not the guilty.

I've mentioned it before but I followed up on allegations of impropriety for almost 2 decades and only ever found one coach of a major program who apparently had not violated any rules. Bill Curry was about as clean as you would find, but then that's why the Bama faithful wanted him gone. Not beating Auburn was just a convenient excuse. I don't know if he was clean at Bama or not, but he was clean at Georgia Tech. Nobody else recruiting the area I covered whether from the SWC, Big 8, ACC, or SEC, or the main Big 10 schools were clean. The really disgusting part is that since that time things have only gotten worse. We were no longer talking cars and cash, but bling and women and any other form of immorality that would have, should have, turned the stomachs of alumni everywhere. But the media was making oodles on these schools and the leaders of the schools didn't want their images tarnished on their watch. So, the media didn't follow up, the NCAA looked the other way, conferences got more sophisticated in dealing with petty conflicts within their own ranks to avoid extra scrutiny, presidents looked the other way during recruiting so as to maintain plausible deniability, assistant coaches took the battle damage for the head guys, and everyone let the money roll. So nobody dared to speak up. If they did they were quickly labeled as a disgruntled and malignant person, or discredited some other way.

How do you think things got so out of control at Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor, and with the Winston era at F.S.U., or the Franklin era at Vanderbilt? A callousness had to grow within the institutions before behavior that grossly abhorrent had been tolerated long enough to warrant a cover up or institutional indifference!

Our sports are just one huge screwed up example of our whole society's rottenness. From the Supreme Court ruling that imminent domain could be used for private development if it raised the tax base, all the way to the junkie on the street we witness how corrupt things are every day, and do nothing. We do nothing out of a sense of futility, helplessness, fear, moral indifference, or because we participate willingly in it in some fashion or another.

After all at the end of the day if you have hung a print of the winning touchdown, or the shot that made your team a champion, and you knew what the players were receiving in the way of perks, illegal inducements, or worse scheduled hook ups, or local police protection for the commission of property crimes or sexual assaults, then you are complicit in all of it. Just like you are when you witness bullying, unwanted sexual advances, harassment, or corruption in your work place and do nothing.

Part of our problem today is that we want justice for our family, but when society's ills affect our neighbor it is suddenly just their problem. Because we don't stand together for what is right, we live with the affliction of corruption daily. It's sad, and I don't know what it will take to change it, but I do know whatever it is that brings change has to start with each of us saying enough! And then encouraging our neighbors to do the same.

So I find a certain level of hypocrisy in most of these threads. If you are asking for change then so be it, I'm on board. But if you are just seeking vengeance against another program or region because you feel that will give you an edge, or benefit your own program, then the threads are disingenuous. There are very very few, clean athletic programs where the student athletes are expected to perform normally in the classroom. I'll give those schools the permission to cast stones. The rest just need to join the stone tossers and demand cleaner programs. If we don't then we have gotten what we deserve. And the oldest claim in the world is still invalid. "We only did it because everybody else was doing it too!"

But if we start with sports, then let us gain the guts necessary to carry the clean up to our city, county, state, and federal governments. When those entities are clean then cleaning crime from the streets will be a lot easier to accomplish. But if we won't do it over the most trivial of matters then we won't do it over the big ones.

A few things: First, the world was always, always, always been unfair to those who attempt to take the moral way through life.

"Our society suffers these things because at its core decency and appropriateness have long vanished." - You're wishing for a fantasy world that never existed.

"From the Supreme Court ruling that imminent domain could be used for private development if it raised the tax base" - You're talking about Kelo v. City of New London I assume? A few months later, Congress passed a law that outlawed using eminent domain for private development at the federal level. So did a lot of states (a few months after Kelo, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the Ohio Constitution did not grant the right to take private property by eminent domain and hand it over to private developers in Norwood v. Horney). So the only possible moral of that story is that people DO respond to injustice.

Finally, your attitudes about the church and the country club are purely regional. In the West, it is the most individualistic society in the world, so few people go to Church and even fewer go with a group to golf - and if they do either activity they don't care who else goes (the most common thing I hear about people's weekends is "I went hiking" or "I went surfing" or some other solitary activity). In rural Appalachia, over 90% of the population is what we call "unchurched" (faithful Christians who pray at home with their families on Sunday rather than in a church community). In Catholic churches (which are uncommon in the South outside big cities), no one gives a damn about being seen in church. There's typically 3-5 masses at each church, and even the smallest city has multiple parishes so no one would know if you went anyways. And country clubs are very minor parts of elites' lives in the Midwest - there's so many public courses that golfing isn't really a status symbol.
02-26-2018 03:45 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #34
RE: 2018 NCAA Tourney without the Cheaters?
(02-26-2018 03:45 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-26-2018 01:12 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 11:41 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(02-25-2018 08:50 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are two kinds of basketball programs in D-I. Those who have cheated and those who would have cheated if only they were good enough to compete for the talents of the top players.

I suppose that means there are two kinds of men, and two kinds of women: those who have cheated, and those who would cheat if they weren't so godawful ugly.

Whether sex or basketball, not everyone cheats.

Not everyone cheats. That is true. But, everyone sins. I promise you that every institution cuts corners on keeping the jocks eligible. Virtually all of them offer some form of illegal perk. But no, not all of them permit the cash to flow as obscenely as others. Face it guys, our whole society is corrupt. People get paid to look the other way while drugs are sold. People use influence and power to put political and legal pressure on their rivals in business or politics, beauty pageants are won by the daughters of the wealthy because of the entry fees for the larger pageants, public high schools fudge on the addresses of jocks they want to compete for them, or businessmen hire their parents to get them to move within the district. So whether it is small stuff or big stuff somebody is always trying to game the system.

Our society suffers these things because at its core decency and appropriateness have long vanished. Churches are social clubs and not havens of assistance for the widows, orphans, poor, sick, and foreigners within our gates. Segregation still exists if you can afford a private enough club to hide behind, and law is settled usually by the one who can afford the best attorney. The poor who are broke to begin with will never dig out from under the endless fines and fees that will accompany the result of a public defense.

The trick to a happy life in the United States in 2018 is to not aim too high, do your job, don't complain about anyone else at your workplace, let alone management, and don't outshine the idiot above you. Attend church to be seen in the right place by all of those who use their attendance to bolster their leadership in the local community, and whatever else you do have the same prejudices as wealthiest in your community but only express them on the links where nobody can be quoted. Why? Because if you ever shine a light on their hypocrisy you will be the one labeled and punished, not the guilty.

I've mentioned it before but I followed up on allegations of impropriety for almost 2 decades and only ever found one coach of a major program who apparently had not violated any rules. Bill Curry was about as clean as you would find, but then that's why the Bama faithful wanted him gone. Not beating Auburn was just a convenient excuse. I don't know if he was clean at Bama or not, but he was clean at Georgia Tech. Nobody else recruiting the area I covered whether from the SWC, Big 8, ACC, or SEC, or the main Big 10 schools were clean. The really disgusting part is that since that time things have only gotten worse. We were no longer talking cars and cash, but bling and women and any other form of immorality that would have, should have, turned the stomachs of alumni everywhere. But the media was making oodles on these schools and the leaders of the schools didn't want their images tarnished on their watch. So, the media didn't follow up, the NCAA looked the other way, conferences got more sophisticated in dealing with petty conflicts within their own ranks to avoid extra scrutiny, presidents looked the other way during recruiting so as to maintain plausible deniability, assistant coaches took the battle damage for the head guys, and everyone let the money roll. So nobody dared to speak up. If they did they were quickly labeled as a disgruntled and malignant person, or discredited some other way.

How do you think things got so out of control at Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor, and with the Winston era at F.S.U., or the Franklin era at Vanderbilt? A callousness had to grow within the institutions before behavior that grossly abhorrent had been tolerated long enough to warrant a cover up or institutional indifference!

Our sports are just one huge screwed up example of our whole society's rottenness. From the Supreme Court ruling that imminent domain could be used for private development if it raised the tax base, all the way to the junkie on the street we witness how corrupt things are every day, and do nothing. We do nothing out of a sense of futility, helplessness, fear, moral indifference, or because we participate willingly in it in some fashion or another.

After all at the end of the day if you have hung a print of the winning touchdown, or the shot that made your team a champion, and you knew what the players were receiving in the way of perks, illegal inducements, or worse scheduled hook ups, or local police protection for the commission of property crimes or sexual assaults, then you are complicit in all of it. Just like you are when you witness bullying, unwanted sexual advances, harassment, or corruption in your work place and do nothing.

Part of our problem today is that we want justice for our family, but when society's ills affect our neighbor it is suddenly just their problem. Because we don't stand together for what is right, we live with the affliction of corruption daily. It's sad, and I don't know what it will take to change it, but I do know whatever it is that brings change has to start with each of us saying enough! And then encouraging our neighbors to do the same.

So I find a certain level of hypocrisy in most of these threads. If you are asking for change then so be it, I'm on board. But if you are just seeking vengeance against another program or region because you feel that will give you an edge, or benefit your own program, then the threads are disingenuous. There are very very few, clean athletic programs where the student athletes are expected to perform normally in the classroom. I'll give those schools the permission to cast stones. The rest just need to join the stone tossers and demand cleaner programs. If we don't then we have gotten what we deserve. And the oldest claim in the world is still invalid. "We only did it because everybody else was doing it too!"

But if we start with sports, then let us gain the guts necessary to carry the clean up to our city, county, state, and federal governments. When those entities are clean then cleaning crime from the streets will be a lot easier to accomplish. But if we won't do it over the most trivial of matters then we won't do it over the big ones.

A few things: First, the world was always, always, always been unfair to those who attempt to take the moral way through life.

"Our society suffers these things because at its core decency and appropriateness have long vanished." - You're wishing for a fantasy world that never existed.

"From the Supreme Court ruling that imminent domain could be used for private development if it raised the tax base" - You're talking about Kelo v. City of New London I assume? A few months later, Congress passed a law that outlawed using eminent domain for private development at the federal level. So did a lot of states (a few months after Kelo, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the Ohio Constitution did not grant the right to take private property by eminent domain and hand it over to private developers in Norwood v. Horney). So the only possible moral of that story is that people DO respond to injustice.

Finally, your attitudes about the church and the country club are purely regional. In the West, it is the most individualistic society in the world, so few people go to Church and even fewer go with a group to golf - and if they do either activity they don't care who else goes (the most common thing I hear about people's weekends is "I went hiking" or "I went surfing" or some other solitary activity). In rural Appalachia, over 90% of the population is what we call "unchurched" (faithful Christians who pray at home with their families on Sunday rather than in a church community). In Catholic churches (which are uncommon in the South outside big cities), no one gives a damn about being seen in church. There's typically 3-5 masses at each church, and even the smallest city has multiple parishes so no one would know if you went anyways. And country clubs are very minor parts of elites' lives in the Midwest - there's so many public courses that golfing isn't really a status symbol.

I never said any of it was ideal, but the failure to take a stance gains us nothing. I merely mentioned religion because so many bathe themselves in it and in the South it is a very social matter. We have way too many excuses for not taking a stand. So we get what we tolerate and that makes it what we deserve. That includes people of other faiths and the godless as well. Even atheists supposedly have ethics and many I've known have a firmly identified base of moral principles by which they claim to operate. It's hypocritical to claim principles, religious or not, and fail to support them.

The Supreme Court ruling was H.W. Bush era and affected Massachusetts. If the court has addressed it, I guess the word hasn't gotten out because people are still having to deal with it. Some right here in my area. If they don't have a loose couple of hundred thousand laying around the house to fight matters legally they just get bulldozed. It takes the middle class and poor a lot more money and trouble to access the legal system to fight the better funded. The old maxim still bodes true, " tyranny (evil) exists where good men do nothing". And I wasn't trying to cover all bases, just paint a picture of how and why people choose to do nothing.

So what's your choice CaptainBearcat? More of the same since you seem convinced it has always been that way? Or change? I'm old enough to remember a better America, far from a perfect one and complete with major issues to tackle, but a better one. As long as humans are involved it will never be perfect, or ideal, but it can and has been better. And the legal system is a very large part of the decline, IMO. Not the impetus, but certainly an important facet with what is wrong. But it is just one of many institutions that have been corrupted. Our problems are many, pervasive, and varied. I have always believed in another hackneyed cliche, "if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem."

So if sports has gotten so sleazy that we need to clean it up, and we do, it is because it is no different than many other aspects of our lives and impacts us a lot less than those that exist within our institutional structures. Sports is merely a reflection of the rest of society. If we don't like what we see then we have a heckuva lot more to clean up other than sports. Personally, I think we owe it to our children and grandchildren to do something about sports, and corruption wherever we may find it, be that in our social clubs, or workplaces, or religious centers, schools, or government.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2018 04:39 AM by JRsec.)
02-26-2018 04:13 AM
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