(02-23-2018 08:50 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  How about phrasing the question a little differently?

"Which fanbase is the most miserable due to realignment?"

Idaho and UConn seem worse off than anyone else. Rice fans give the impression that they're not happy with it, but begrudgingly understand. NMSU isn't happy, either, but they seem more hopeful. UConn and Idaho fans strike me as bitter and angry.

It's all understandable. Idaho fans straight-up lost their FBS program. Meanwhile, UConn really did lose the most out of anyone - not only did they lose power conference status for football, but they completely lost all of their rivals in basketball (which hurts more as basketball-oriented school) and are now in a geographically-dispersed conference. More importantly, there's not really a viable alternative path for them. BYU might not like the fact that they're not in a P5 conference, but independence is at least viable for them and they can claim that they're "special" compared to Utah on that basis. UConn really doesn't have any path - joining the Big East for basketball would likely require killing their FBS football program (whether figuratively in the form of going independent with a lot less scheduling and bargaining power compared to a school like BYU or literally in just dropping it altogether) while staying in the AAC for all sports much longer will sap its basketball fan base. (Note that this has little to do with whether the AAC is a good basketball league on-the-court or not. This is about brand names and history: UConn is seeing its closest geographic rivals like Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, BC and, worst of all, Rutgers playing big historical brand names night-in and night-out in leagues that are somehow still more geographically compact compared to the AAC.)

(02-23-2018 09:40 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Frank,
You always say =“think like a college president.” I’m telling you to think to like The LDS Church leadership that calls the shots at BYU. . You can’t because you don’t know anything about it or BYU. I’ll concede to you on law issues as I’m not an attorney. Please believe me that you are dead wrong with this quote : “it’s disingenuous to think that.BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC.” You are dead wrong.

Sure - the LDS leadership cares a heck of a lot that Utah is in a Power Five conference while BYU isn't. So, when Utah was in the WAC and MWC, then it was acceptable for BYU to be in the WAC and MWC. However, I think that's very different from nostalgia for the WAC and MWC themselves. I'm not seeing much of that from anyone at BYU, whether it's the fans or the school administrators. The LDS leadership more than anyone is why BYU is independent today (and why a G5 league has about as much chance of getting Notre Dame to join as BYU at this point). They simply won't allow BYU to be perceived to be in a structurally lower group than Utah.

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

And to all those who reminded me of Idaho. My bad on that omission. I never intended them to be #1. That’s far and away Uconn. But Idaho should be high on this list.

(02-23-2018 10:34 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

now in that- there would be a lot different situations.....

teams that would be down then would include UConn, Houston, SMU, Rice, So Miss, ECU, BYU/MWC teams.

But wouldn't include teams like Cincy and USF as they weren't good at the start and had upgraded by the end. They are relatively speaking better in 2018 than they were in 1995.

(02-23-2018 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:34 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

now in that- there would be a lot different situations.....

teams that would be down then would include UConn, Houston, SMU, Rice, So Miss, ECU, BYU/MWC teams.

But wouldn't include teams like Cincy and USF as they weren't good at the start and had upgraded by the end. They are relatively speaking better in 2018 than they were in 1995.

And I made a special point about USF. They didnt have a football team in 1995. Incredibly, by 2005 they were in a BCS conference. That’s one of those one in a billion situations in college football.
Temple was in the Big East from 1991-2004 and then again in 2012.
That’s why those 2 got a special mention.

(02-23-2018 10:42 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:34 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

now in that- there would be a lot different situations.....

teams that would be down then would include UConn, Houston, SMU, Rice, So Miss, ECU, BYU/MWC teams.

But wouldn't include teams like Cincy and USF as they weren't good at the start and had upgraded by the end. They are relatively speaking better in 2018 than they were in 1995.

And I made a special point about USF. They weren’t a division 1 football program in 1995. Incredibly, by 2005 they were in a BCS conference. That’s one of those one in a billion situations in college football.
Temple was in the Big East from 1991-2004 and then again in 2012.
That’s why those 2 got a special mention.

I'll give you Temple. But USF in 2018 is in a lot better place now than they were in 1995. Even not being in the P5. Same with Cincy.

(02-23-2018 10:44 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:42 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:34 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

now in that- there would be a lot different situations.....

teams that would be down then would include UConn, Houston, SMU, Rice, So Miss, ECU, BYU/MWC teams.

But wouldn't include teams like Cincy and USF as they weren't good at the start and had upgraded by the end. They are relatively speaking better in 2018 than they were in 1995.

And I made a special point about USF. They weren’t a division 1 football program in 1995. Incredibly, by 2005 they were in a BCS conference. That’s one of those one in a billion situations in college football.
Temple was in the Big East from 1991-2004 and then again in 2012.
That’s why those 2 got a special mention.

I'll give you Temple. But USF in 2018 is in a lot better place now than they were in 1995. Even not being in the P5. Same with Cincy.

Well yeah, USF didn’t have a football team until the late 90’s. No football program at all.
But 6 years after deciding to try their hand as a non-D1 program, USF was invited into a BCS conference

(02-23-2018 10:34 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:25 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

uh, your title was last decade. So for teams in the last 10 years....
would agree with you on UConn and Cincy. And New Mexico St and BYU. And USF.

For UTEP, Rice, Southern Miss, Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force- they are down, but no where near as much as the other 5..

For Temple- 10 years ago they were in the MAC/A10. They are in a much better situation now.
For ECU- 10 years ago they were in CUSA- who was 3rd behind MWC and WAC at that point. Now they are in the AAC who is the unquestioned top non P5 conference.... now if this was 25 year frame, it's a different story. But it's not.

I should of put a different qualifier like who’s been impacted by realignment since the SWC disbanded in 1996. My whole point was to not include that. The post SWC breakup world?

I think there's also a more nuanced analysis about whether a school is better off in *relative* sense compared to 10 years ago (or 20-plus years ago) as opposed to an *absolute* sense. In an *absolute* sense, you could argue that every FBS school besides UConn, Cincinnati and USF are better off today because they're all making more money in an absolute sense from TV and the CFP system than 10 years ago.

However, in a *relative* sense, the divide between the P5 and G5 in the CFP era is much greater than the divide between the AQ and non-AQ conferences in the BCS era, which in turn was a much greater divide between the various conferences in the pre-BCS era. A school like ECU might be making twice as much conference money today as it was 10 years ago, but when UNC, NC State, Duke and Wake Forest are making five times more conference money today compared to 10 years ago (and they were already starting out at a higher base), they are actually *relatively* worse off today.

Hope for the future also comes into that calculation. A big reason why UConn fans are more worried than other schools in the AAC is that their best P5 prospects are with the Big Ten and ACC, which are leagues that seem to be perfectly fat and happy right now. To the extent that the P5 ranks expand at all, it's most likely coming from the Big 12, so you see a lot more hopeful stance from schools more viably in the mix there (e.g. Cincinnati, Houston, UCF, etc.). Similarly, ECU and, say, Virginia Tech were essentially seen as peer independents up through the 1980s, but when VT zooms up to get places in the old Big East and then ACC and those opportunities appear to be foreclosed to ECU forever, the "hope" part of the equation is extinguished (so a school in that position feels much worse off in a relative sense compared to a school like UCF where they still feel like their best days are ahead of them).

(02-23-2018 10:19 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 09:40 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Frank,
You always say =“think like a college president.” I’m telling you to think to like The LDS Church leadership that calls the shots at BYU. . You can’t because you don’t know anything about it or BYU. I’ll concede to you on law issues as I’m not an attorney. Please believe me that you are dead wrong with this quote : “it’s disingenuous to think that.BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC.” You are dead wrong.

Sure - the LDS leadership cares a heck of a lot that Utah is in a Power Five conference while BYU isn't. So, when Utah was in the WAC and MWC, then it was acceptable for BYU to be in the WAC and MWC. However, I think that's very different from nostalgia for the WAC and MWC themselves. I'm not seeing much of that from anyone at BYU, whether it's the fans or the school administrators. The LDS leadership more than anyone is why BYU is independent today (and why a G5 league has about as much chance of getting Notre Dame to join as BYU at this point). They simply won't allow BYU to be perceived to be in a structurally lower group than Utah.

Well...yes and no. No doubt BYU was pissed about the Utah move and felt slighted at being left behind in a non-power conference. However, that wasn't what caused BYU to leave the MWC. BYU wanted to keep an in state and in conference rivalry. It wanted the MWC to invite USU to replace Utah. When the MWC refused to make that move, BYU announce it was leaving the MWC. The long and short is IF the MWC had met BYU's demand for an invite to USU, BYU would still be in the MWC and the MWC would still be benefiting from the TV revenue that BYU brought to the table.

(02-23-2018 09:53 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  And making a bowl game is not ostensibly hard these days, it's like winning 15 games in basketball.

Good point. Since there are slots for over half of the FBS teams, it's easier to make a bowl game than not.

(02-23-2018 09:31 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I completely disagree with this entire line of thinking. BYU shouldn't be on this list at all and, in fact, they were one of the only schools that were actually able to mitigate or even eliminate the effects of their conference getting poached as applied to their own program. Probably the only other schools that could say that are the Catholic 7 forming the new Big East.

BYU's supposed "struggles as an independent" are purely on-the-field. However, "success" (or lack thereof) in conference realignment is about off-the-field issues. On that front, BYU makes more TV money today with more TV exposure than they did before. The "high school gym" also intimates that the WCC for basketball is somehow a negative when the reality is that it's a push at worst competitively and a net positive in a lot of areas (as Gonzaga is a much bigger basketball brand than anyone in the MWC and the religiously-oriented league fits BYU from an institutional standpoint).

Now, the main conference realignment negative for BYU is that their biggest rival (Utah) is in the Pac-12. I won't underestimate that at all and it's the reason why a G5 conference attempting to get BYU to join them would be about as successful as inviting Notre Dame. So, BYU certainly cares that they aren't in a Power Five conference and, on that front, you could say that any school that isn't in one of those leagues (besides maybe the Big East for basketball) is a loser in conference realignment. However, it's disingenuous to think that BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC. Ultimately, BYU is essentially doing as well as any FBS school possibly could while existing outside of a Power Five conference.

It depends on how you define "hurt" by realignment.

BYU is a loser if you look at it from the 2009 lens of playing in a football conference that had 2 or 3 top-25 teams annually and was on the verge of qualifying for the BCS exemption, with the Thanksgiving weekend game against its primary rival. Similar analysis when compared to the MWC basketball conference that had perennially ranked teams with SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Utah and BYU and multiple NCAA tournament bids.

However, BYU is making more money than ever, has WAY better TV exposure and national fan access than ever possible in the MWC. And, Olympic sports play in a conference with like-minded institutions in states (including Utah) that cover more than 2/3 of the alumni base. And, its conference basketball champion played in the national championship game last year - gym-size notwithstanding.

When compared to the *current* status of the MWC and WAC, it's a no-brainer that BYU hasn't been "hurt." It avoided the situations that could have really hurt them.

(02-22-2018 10:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

Most of those schools have themselves largely to blame. Especially BYU.

UConn is a victim of their geography and their arrogance. They only have control over one of those two things.

If it wasn't for Women's hoops, they would be playing in the A-10 right now.

(02-23-2018 10:53 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 10:19 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 09:40 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Frank,
You always say =“think like a college president.” I’m telling you to think to like The LDS Church leadership that calls the shots at BYU. . You can’t because you don’t know anything about it or BYU. I’ll concede to you on law issues as I’m not an attorney. Please believe me that you are dead wrong with this quote : “it’s disingenuous to think that.BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC.” You are dead wrong.

Sure - the LDS leadership cares a heck of a lot that Utah is in a Power Five conference while BYU isn't. So, when Utah was in the WAC and MWC, then it was acceptable for BYU to be in the WAC and MWC. However, I think that's very different from nostalgia for the WAC and MWC themselves. I'm not seeing much of that from anyone at BYU, whether it's the fans or the school administrators. The LDS leadership more than anyone is why BYU is independent today (and why a G5 league has about as much chance of getting Notre Dame to join as BYU at this point). They simply won't allow BYU to be perceived to be in a structurally lower group than Utah.

Well...yes and no. No doubt BYU was pissed about the Utah move and felt slighted at being left behind in a non-power conference. However, that wasn't what caused BYU to leave the MWC. BYU wanted to keep an in state and in conference rivalry. It wanted the MWC to invite USU to replace Utah. When the MWC refused to make that move, BYU announce it was leaving the MWC. The long and short is IF the MWC had met BYU's demand for an invite to USU, BYU would still be in the MWC and the MWC would still be benefiting from the TV revenue that BYU brought to the table.

As I seem to recall this was not the case. BYU was unhappy with Utah's new Power status and wanted to go Indy and the WAC was going to take their Olympic sports. The MWC retaliated by adding Nevada, Fresno St, and Utah St. the first two accepted; the latter held true to the plan and then BYU found a. Ether deal with the WCC.

To me the 3 biggest losers have to be UConn, Cincy, and USF. Losing power status is a huge drop.

Next are Idaho and NMSU.

I'm going with UMass next. The MAC was pursuing a 14 team football model but the loss of Temple caused them to back off.

UTEP, Rice, USM, UAB, and Marshall are my next tier because C-USA 3.0 was a huge downgrade from the 2.0 and 1.0 models.

BYU seems to have blossomed as a result of alignment.

I am biased but:

Memphis - lost what was considered our two traditional rivals - UoL and UC.

WVU - lost all of what they considered rivals - Pitt, Syracuse and VT, et al. Ended up stuck on an island with no rivals; however, on the bright side still in P5.

(02-23-2018 02:21 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 09:31 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I completely disagree with this entire line of thinking. BYU shouldn't be on this list at all and, in fact, they were one of the only schools that were actually able to mitigate or even eliminate the effects of their conference getting poached as applied to their own program. Probably the only other schools that could say that are the Catholic 7 forming the new Big East.

BYU's supposed "struggles as an independent" are purely on-the-field. However, "success" (or lack thereof) in conference realignment is about off-the-field issues. On that front, BYU makes more TV money today with more TV exposure than they did before. The "high school gym" also intimates that the WCC for basketball is somehow a negative when the reality is that it's a push at worst competitively and a net positive in a lot of areas (as Gonzaga is a much bigger basketball brand than anyone in the MWC and the religiously-oriented league fits BYU from an institutional standpoint).

Now, the main conference realignment negative for BYU is that their biggest rival (Utah) is in the Pac-12. I won't underestimate that at all and it's the reason why a G5 conference attempting to get BYU to join them would be about as successful as inviting Notre Dame. So, BYU certainly cares that they aren't in a Power Five conference and, on that front, you could say that any school that isn't in one of those leagues (besides maybe the Big East for basketball) is a loser in conference realignment. However, it's disingenuous to think that BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC. Ultimately, BYU is essentially doing as well as any FBS school possibly could while existing outside of a Power Five conference.

It depends on how you define "hurt" by realignment.

BYU is a loser if you look at it from the 2009 lens of playing in a football conference that had 2 or 3 top-25 teams annually and was on the verge of qualifying for the BCS exemption, with the Thanksgiving weekend game against its primary rival. Similar analysis when compared to the MWC basketball conference that had perennially ranked teams with SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Utah and BYU and multiple NCAA tournament bids.

However, BYU is making more money than ever, has WAY better TV exposure and national fan access than ever possible in the MWC. And, Olympic sports play in a conference with like-minded institutions in states (including Utah) that cover more than 2/3 of the alumni base. And, its conference basketball champion played in the national championship game last year - gym-size notwithstanding.

When compared to the *current* status of the MWC and WAC, it's a no-brainer that BYU hasn't been "hurt." It avoided the situations that could have really hurt them.

I agree with you here. To your point, my pushback is this notion is BYU is on a list of top 10 schools to be hurt by realignment. The fact of the matter is that all of the members of the old MWC and WAC have suffered much more as a result of conference realignment than BYU.

(02-23-2018 03:18 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 10:11 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  1. UCONN-Basketball power & football in a BCS conference. Athletics are in shambles
2. Cincy-Was in a BCS league for 9 years & started getting good at football finally.
3. New Mexico St-no conference in football; Has to play hoops in a conference with Chicago St now. OUCH!
4. UTEP-currently one of the worst athletic programs in the country after once being part of the original WAC & later CUSA 2.0.
5. Rice-Was a part of the SWC & WAC 16 and CUSA 2.0; now awful in a awful conference full of directional start up programs flung throughout the country.
6. Southern Miss-Proud Indy & CUSA program reduced to playing in...(See Rice)
7. BYU-Proud founder of WAC & MWC with tons of success; now plays in the high school gym league for sports and struggling as an Indy in football.
8. Old WAC/MWC members Wyoming, New Mexico, Colorado St & Air Force.
9. ECU- on the verge of big boy football status as a major independent and CUSA 1.

Have to mention these guys
10. USF-was somehow part of a BCS league despite any success/history/stadium. Now not a member of the country club they were kind of a part of for a few years.
11. Temple-See USF except they do have some history: Good in hoops; Bad in football.

Most of those schools have themselves largely to blame. Especially BYU.

UConn is a victim of their geography and their arrogance. They only have control over one of those two things.

If it wasn't for Women's hoops, they would be playing in the A-10 right now.

???

I'm not quite sure what to make of either of your comments. What arrogance are you talking about? (Note that I don't see the frequent griping from fans of School A believing that School B is always conspiring to hold them down as "arrogance", e.g. see UConn's own fans with respect to Boston College.) Is playing in the A-10 a good thing or bad thing?

(02-23-2018 03:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 02:21 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 09:31 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I completely disagree with this entire line of thinking. BYU shouldn't be on this list at all and, in fact, they were one of the only schools that were actually able to mitigate or even eliminate the effects of their conference getting poached as applied to their own program. Probably the only other schools that could say that are the Catholic 7 forming the new Big East.

BYU's supposed "struggles as an independent" are purely on-the-field. However, "success" (or lack thereof) in conference realignment is about off-the-field issues. On that front, BYU makes more TV money today with more TV exposure than they did before. The "high school gym" also intimates that the WCC for basketball is somehow a negative when the reality is that it's a push at worst competitively and a net positive in a lot of areas (as Gonzaga is a much bigger basketball brand than anyone in the MWC and the religiously-oriented league fits BYU from an institutional standpoint).

Now, the main conference realignment negative for BYU is that their biggest rival (Utah) is in the Pac-12. I won't underestimate that at all and it's the reason why a G5 conference attempting to get BYU to join them would be about as successful as inviting Notre Dame. So, BYU certainly cares that they aren't in a Power Five conference and, on that front, you could say that any school that isn't in one of those leagues (besides maybe the Big East for basketball) is a loser in conference realignment. However, it's disingenuous to think that BYU really cares about the old conference setups in the WAC or MWC. Ultimately, BYU is essentially doing as well as any FBS school possibly could while existing outside of a Power Five conference.

It depends on how you define "hurt" by realignment.

BYU is a loser if you look at it from the 2009 lens of playing in a football conference that had 2 or 3 top-25 teams annually and was on the verge of qualifying for the BCS exemption, with the Thanksgiving weekend game against its primary rival. Similar analysis when compared to the MWC basketball conference that had perennially ranked teams with SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Utah and BYU and multiple NCAA tournament bids.

However, BYU is making more money than ever, has WAY better TV exposure and national fan access than ever possible in the MWC. And, Olympic sports play in a conference with like-minded institutions in states (including Utah) that cover more than 2/3 of the alumni base. And, its conference basketball champion played in the national championship game last year - gym-size notwithstanding.

When compared to the *current* status of the MWC and WAC, it's a no-brainer that BYU hasn't been "hurt." It avoided the situations that could have really hurt them.

I agree with you here. To your point, my pushback is this notion is BYU is on a list of top 10 schools to be hurt by realignment. The fact of the matter is that all of the members of the old MWC and WAC have suffered much more as a result of conference realignment than BYU.

Oh no doubt that the old WAC/MWC have been hurt by realignment more. It’s been catastrophic in fact. But BYU has been hurt too. The grudges that came out of that are visible today as BYU has H&H’s scheduled with far away NIU and ECU (4 games) UMASS (4 Games) instead of Air Force, Wyoming, Colorado St and New Mexico. Their long time historic regional rivals. I remember watching BYU play on tv vs UNLV and UNM. Those were big time games like the original CUSA Louisville/Cincinnati/Memphis Games.