(04-03-2018 08:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Yeah but the MWC is just down right now

Maybe, maybe not. It's kind of like when we have a year in California with almost no rain -- is this year just a fluke, or are we in a drought?

For Gonzaga to join the MWC based on thinking it would be a huge increase in conference SOS, they would have had to just take it on faith that MWC hoops is in a very brief down period which will soon lead to the MWC having at least as much basketball strength as the AAC.

Wichita State and Butler didn't have to make a leap of faith when they moved, because recent history showed that they were getting a very large SOS boost when compared to the conferences they were moving out of.

Put another way, I have faith the MWC will get 10 legit at-large bids over the next decade (i.e. not just because of a bid stealer). I'm not so sure with the WCC, maybe 5-7.

(04-03-2018 06:27 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(04-03-2018 04:38 PM)McKinney Wrote:  

(04-03-2018 04:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Gonzaga made the bad move. What if in 10 to 15 years from now that the split happens with the olympics sports, and the WCC gets put into the FCS of men's basketball while the MWC would be in the FBS of men's basketball? Wichita State made the wise choice. How many of the best basketball schools who are not in the FBS conferences want to move up? Dayton, VCU, Grand Canyon, New Mexico State, UMass., and maybe the MVC schools like Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Illinois State, Southern Illinois. Or the Dakota schools? Schools want to position themselves before the split.

If there is a split I think it will be on the lines of academics, facilities, and resources not straight performance. I'm a firm believer that the A10 would be in the "FBS of men's basketball".

I would be worried if I were the A-10.

Richmond-big East target
Saint Louis-Big East target
UMass.-AAC target
VCU-AAC target
Dayton-AAC target

Fordham, George Mason and URI could move to another conference.

That means that they could be picked apart with the best schools going into better conferences.

I'd really like to see UMass and Army+VCU go to AAC. Obviously I'm biased, but I think that pair would be the best in terms of rivalries, balancing geography, and expanding recruiting grounds for football and basketball.

It's good that in the Mountain West, there isn't another Gonzaga type, who isn't propping up the conference. Problem is, there aren't consistent programs in general within it. So, maybe there isn't one team doing a lot of the work (it used to be UNM and UNLV), but lately, there hasn't been anyone reliable in general. You don't have a Gonzaga in the MWC, but you don't have a St. Mary's or BYU, either.

I just don't think Gonzaga realizes how much of the uplift they get from the WCC is due to their own success. I mean, yeah, they know they prop up the conference...are they aware BYU and SMC are just trying to keep up and not be something different or better? They'd get that in the MWC, because UNLV and UNM know a thing or two about the game, and aren't just trying to keep appearances with some other school. That makes the MWC more like the AAC, and why Wichita's a good comparison, imo...Wichita doesn't need the MVC or AAC to define it, but does need programs who know the sport intimately to help refine their own program. WCC will never be good for that.

(04-04-2018 05:11 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's good that in the Mountain West, there isn't another Gonzaga type, who isn't propping up the conference. Problem is, there aren't consistent programs in general within it. So, maybe there isn't one team doing a lot of the work (it used to be UNM and UNLV), but lately, there hasn't been anyone reliable in general. You don't have a Gonzaga in the MWC, but you don't have a St. Mary's or BYU, either.

I just don't think Gonzaga realizes how much of the uplift they get from the WCC is due to their own success. I mean, yeah, they know they prop up the conference...are they aware BYU and SMC are just trying to keep up and not be something different or better? They'd get that in the MWC, because UNLV and UNM know a thing or two about the game, and aren't just trying to keep appearances with some other school. That makes the MWC more like the AAC, and why Wichita's a good comparison, imo...Wichita doesn't need the MVC or AAC to define it, but does need programs who know the sport intimately to help refine their own program. WCC will never be good for that.

I think the team in the MWC that get screwed a lot by the basketball committee is Boise State. They have won more than 20 games, and sometimes 19 games the past 6 or 7 years, and they only got 1 invite in that time period. They are the one that seems to be not up and down like a Yo-Yo in men's basketball with their wins and loses.

I'd really like to see UMass and Army+VCU go to AAC. Obviously I'm biased, but I think that pair would be the best in terms of rivalries, balancing geography, and expanding recruiting grounds for football and basketball.
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UMass to AAC seems like a good fit, provided UConn stays.

As for Gonzaga staying put, they got the concessions they needed. They can always secure a big OOC national TV game or two and barring something freakish, their gravy train rolls on. Some years you make the Sweet 16 and beyond, and others you don't; but what all the elite programs have in common is that they're in that conversation in any given year.

(04-04-2018 05:11 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It's good that in the Mountain West, there isn't another Gonzaga type, who isn't propping up the conference. Problem is, there aren't consistent programs in general within it. So, maybe there isn't one team doing a lot of the work (it used to be UNM and UNLV), but lately, there hasn't been anyone reliable in general. You don't have a Gonzaga in the MWC, but you don't have a St. Mary's or BYU, either.

I just don't think Gonzaga realizes how much of the uplift they get from the WCC is due to their own success. I mean, yeah, they know they prop up the conference...are they aware BYU and SMC are just trying to keep up and not be something different or better? They'd get that in the MWC, because UNLV and UNM know a thing or two about the game, and aren't just trying to keep appearances with some other school. That makes the MWC more like the AAC, and why Wichita's a good comparison, imo...Wichita doesn't need the MVC or AAC to define it, but does need programs who know the sport intimately to help refine their own program. WCC will never be good for that.

The MWC lost some quality coaches, such as Lon Kruger at UNLV, Steve Alford at UNM and Steve Fisher at San Diego State. That and losing BYU and Utah has not helped. The MWC may find their way back to being a multi-bid league, but they are not special at this point. UNM has lost three straight to NMSU. Grand Canyon has won three straight versus the MWC, sweeping San Diego State and beating UNM. In the 2016-2017 season, Cal State Bakersfield beat Fresno State at home and in the NIT went on the road and crushed Colorado State 81-63. CSU was the 2nd best team in the MWC in 2016-2017.
If WAC teams are doing that to MWC teams, there is something wrong.

The MWC has lost some good coaches and they are not recruiting talent to the MWC. UNLV has not made the NCAA tournament in five years, UNM has not made it in four years. If UNLV and UNM "know about a thing or two about the game," they might want to start showing it. In the meantime, Gonzaga just doesn't need the MWC. The MWC really can't help Gonzaga these days, except as leverage for a better deal in the WCC.

Gonzaga doesn't need the MWC these days but what about in 25 years, presumably long after Few is gone?

I mention all the time that St. Mary's is a product of Randy Bennett and his pipeline to Australia. Gonzaga has 2 NCAA Tournament appearances, 1 Elite 8 and 1 Hall of Famer aside from the years that Few has been coach. Two of the three almost immediately preceded his tenure and another is a fun fact but irrelevant.

My point being if SMC is about one coach, then Gonzaga is too. Though Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson laid the foundation, Mark Few was the one who sustained and built it into what it has become. If he leaves, unless he has a protégé mirroring everything he's doing to sustain it, there's no reason to think Gonzaga can't become irrelevant again. That's why they should try to elevate themselves into a better conference. They could always find themselves back where they were if things don't work out.

MWC basketball is bound to bounce back but no one new is going to emerge in the WCC to help bolster the league.

It's possible but only one team from the traditional WCC group has emerged as an at-large caliber school, that being St. Mary's. The last time there was an AL bid from outside the top three was in 2002: Pepperdine.

(04-04-2018 05:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Gonzaga doesn't need the MWC these days but what about in 25 years, presumably long after Few is gone?

I mention all the time that St. Mary's is a product of Randy Bennett and his pipeline to Australia. Gonzaga has 2 NCAA Tournament appearances, 1 Elite 8 and 1 Hall of Famer aside from the years that Few has been coach. Two of the three almost immediately preceded his tenure and another is a fun fact but irrelevant.

My point being if SMC is about one coach, then Gonzaga is too. Though Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson laid the foundation, Mark Few was the one who sustained and built it into what it has become. If he leaves, unless he has a protégé mirroring everything he's doing to sustain it, there's no reason to think Gonzaga can't become irrelevant again. That's why they should try to elevate themselves into a better conference. They could always find themselves back where they were if things don't work out.

^ THIS. Going to the MWC would have been the smart long term plan.

(04-04-2018 05:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Gonzaga doesn't need the MWC these days but what about in 25 years, presumably long after Few is gone?

I mention all the time that St. Mary's is a product of Randy Bennett and his pipeline to Australia. Gonzaga has 2 NCAA Tournament appearances, 1 Elite 8 and 1 Hall of Famer aside from the years that Few has been coach. Two of the three almost immediately preceded his tenure and another is a fun fact but irrelevant.

My point being if SMC is about one coach, then Gonzaga is too. Though Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson laid the foundation, Mark Few was the one who sustained and built it into what it has become. If he leaves, unless he has a protégé mirroring everything he's doing to sustain it, there's no reason to think Gonzaga can't become irrelevant again. That's why they should try to elevate themselves into a better conference. They could always find themselves back where they were if things don't work out.

Any team that has had long-term success under one head coach could slip after that coach leaves.

But your argument supports Gonzaga staying in the WCC. Institutionally, the MWC is a terrible fit for Gonzaga. The MWC schools have zero, zip, nada, in common with Gonzaga as a university, other than the fact that all of them have D-I athletics. The only possible reason for Gonzaga to want to be in that conference is Gonzaga wanting to boost its elite basketball program with a better conference SOS. If you think the Zags will sink and become non-elite as soon as Few leaves, then any possible reason for being in the MWC would also disappear as soon as Few leaves.

How about softening the blow when Gonzaga comes back down to reality? If they become just another WCC team again, they may never contend for a national title again. If they become a lower echelon MWC team, it's far more likely and more quick that they become a power again and contend for a national title, as a couple MWC teams have done before (the difference between those teams and the WCC teams that have is they're giant state flagships or close enough with lots of resources).

Besides, I'm sure they could keep some kind of academic connection with them.

To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

(04-05-2018 04:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

There’s a measurable thing to watch: the 2 extra OOC games. Will the WCC get some great extra OOC games with the PAC, Big 12, AAC, MWC now? Maybe Gonzaga will. I bet the other WCC members don’t though.

(04-05-2018 04:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

To be fair---I dont think it was meant to be public. The original reporter already had the story and was going to publish it with or without any additional information from Thompson. The longer talks go on, the more likely its going to leak out and become public. I think the talks had been going on for quite a while in this case.

(04-05-2018 10:53 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 04:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

There’s a measurable thing to watch: the 2 extra OOC games. Will the WCC get some great extra OOC games with the PAC, Big 12, AAC, MWC now? Maybe Gonzaga will. I bet the other WCC members don’t though.

Those two extra games may actually hurt the WCC RPI even more if schools are plugging those two extra spots with Division II and sub 250 RPI opponents.

If it's not a 14-game schedule, then it won't make much of a difference. Heck, it should be down to a 12 game schedule, that would be the best way the Zags could minimize the damage of being in the WCC if that were possible or even a single round robin.

(04-05-2018 11:58 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 10:53 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 04:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

There’s a measurable thing to watch: the 2 extra OOC games. Will the WCC get some great extra OOC games with the PAC, Big 12, AAC, MWC now? Maybe Gonzaga will. I bet the other WCC members don’t though.

Those two extra games may actually hurt the WCC RPI even more if schools are plugging those two extra spots with Division II and sub 250 RPI opponents.

actually no. 2 things. 1- d2 teams don't count towards RPI at all. 2- if schools are replacing losses to Gonzaga with wins vs low ranked teams- that's going to help Gonzaga some.. What gets counted in 50% of Gonzaga's RPI is opponents record. Maybe conference RPI gets hurt- but Gonzaga's RPI won't be hurt at all.

(04-05-2018 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 11:58 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 10:53 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(04-05-2018 04:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  To compare the two, you'd think this was going from A-Sun to Big South. But, stink up the joint in basketball for a few years now, and we are led to believe everything's better in WCC. Sadly, that comparison fits every other western conference out there if PAC isn't an option.

It is what it is. I don't think Gonzaga handled this well, though. For MWC to play its hand to force Gonzaga to stop the bull****; don't think too highly of yourself, you're not that special to do that to another, better conference. That is the kind of stuff that might burn a bridge in the future. If the concessions were the chaser, dragging it out like Gonzaga did to both conferences was poor form. Heck, it was poor form for Gonzaga to let its wandering eyes be a public thing. They'll be lucky if other conferences don't air their dirty laundry and dish on their experiences with the school.

...and I'll continue to wait to see how these concessions really play out for them in the WCC. Because they aren't sustainable changes.

There’s a measurable thing to watch: the 2 extra OOC games. Will the WCC get some great extra OOC games with the PAC, Big 12, AAC, MWC now? Maybe Gonzaga will. I bet the other WCC members don’t though.

Those two extra games may actually hurt the WCC RPI even more if schools are plugging those two extra spots with Division II and sub 250 RPI opponents.

actually no. 2 things. 1- d2 teams don't count towards RPI at all. 2- if schools are replacing losses to Gonzaga with wins vs low ranked teams- that's going to help Gonzaga some.. What gets counted in 50% of Gonzaga's RPI is opponents record. Maybe conference RPI gets hurt- but Gonzaga's RPI won't be hurt at all.

Yeah, but it assumes either a good loss or a bad win. A bad loss hurts everyone. An extra game against a D2 team is just one less game to record for metrics. That actually hurts if it's already a bad team who books it. Kinda like the Ivy League, it's a smaller schedule, and the quality (or lack thereof) becomes more pronounced metrically. It's something their new tournament fixes a bit, adding two more games for the champ.

What could go either way, too, is a smaller tournament. Sure, you lose the game against the 8 and beef up the 3-6 seeds, it's still a lost game. That doesn't hurt Gonzaga specifically, given their history and practice, but it could hurt BYU or St. Mary's if they're in need of a bump.

That's why I question the sustainability of it. You're demanding a lot on the really bad teams to go out and spend money to participate in MTE's and to grab more non-conference content, with the emphasis that it be something done at home (and not take the easy and obvious body-bagger, though that actually helps metrically in its way). You're punishing them with more. They have to spend more, bring more home, win more (to get a better cut of the share), and play more games in the tournament. I mean, who are we kidding here...that's not a good cut for a program having an off year. It's punishment for making Gonzaga angry, and there's no guarantee it keeps them in the league anyway. We're high if we believe this will be the new reality in the WCC. No way.

And let's be real about what happens if teams don't make these changes. Right, we're to believe the conference will expel Portland, LMU, Santa Clara, or Pacific if they don't abide? Like, there will be forced accountability if some schools tell the conference, or just Gonzaga, that they can shove it?