This stinks more than Vegas.

Quote:Fox News has learned that in the critical moments as first responding deputies were searching for an active shooter on the property of Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school, a commanding officer on scene apparently ordered some of the initial responders to “stage” and set up a “perimeter” outside -- instead of immediately ordering or allowing officers to rush in to neutralize the suspect, Nikolas Cruz.

“It’s atrocious,” a law enforcement source who was on the scene after the shooting told Fox News. “If deputies were staging it could have cost lives.”

The law enforcement source said responding deputies and officers were called to an active shooter scene in which they are trained to immediately “go, go, go” toward the direction of the shooter. “Every second is another life,” the source said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/28/com...s-say.html

I'm not going to cast too much blame here, or on the resource officer who didn't go into the building. These situations are always highly confused, and it may very well not be clear what is the right course of action. I make it a practice not to second guess stuff done in the heat of the battle, without a completely clear picture of what is happening inside. This is the same way as I have looked at actions which injure or kill civilians on a military battlefield. 20/20 hindsight may never be fair, but it is clearly unfair in those situations. Nobody knows what he/she would truly do in that situation until faced with it. If you know where the shooter is and can plan, then you might accomplish something, but rushing into certain death benefits nobody.

Now, fair or not, I don't give a rat's ass, I will criticize and condemn the inaction in the face of an obvious treat that allowed this situation to develop. It's the same way I looked at Benghazi. I don't criticize anyone who might have issued a stand-down order. If I had been in charge, I think I would have given such order. But whoever set that situation up in the first place needs to fry, just like here.

Leaders have been leaving these cops to swing in the wind. As if 4 cops all decided to go coward at once...ya right.

Leadership and the officer safety above all culture led to overcaution.

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(02-28-2018 10:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'm not going to cast too much blame here, or on the resource officer who didn't go into the building. These situations are always highly confused, and it may very well not be clear what is the right course of action. I make it a practice not to second guess stuff done in the heat of the battle, without a completely clear picture of what is happening inside. This is the same way as I have looked at actions which injure or kill civilians on a military battlefield. 20/20 hindsight may never be fair, but it is clearly unfair in those situations. Nobody knows what he/she would truly do in that situation until faced with it. If you know where the shooter is and can plan, then you might accomplish something, but rushing into certain death benefits nobody.

Now, fair or not, I don't give a rat's ass, I will criticize and condemn the inaction in the face of an obvious treat that allowed this situation to develop. It's the same way I looked at Benghazi. I don't criticize anyone who might have issued a stand-down order. If I had been in charge, I think I would have given such order. But whoever set that situation up in the first place needs to fry, just like here.

I will.

The actions of the Broward County deputies who were first on scene goes against the national training standard for response to mass shooting incidents. They either went against training and SOP, which is a leadership issue, had SOPs that did not meet the national standard which is also a failure of leadership or failed to obtain training that is easily available through multiple sources nationwide..which again is a failure of leadership,


In the class that I took going on eight years ago with my six man department(three full time and three reserve officers) we were told that the first arriving unit(s) went to the sound of gunfire and engaged the shooter. The #1 goal was to interdict the shooter. It didn't matter if it was a one man unit or a school bus load. In speaking with law enforcement friends still in the business about this since the revelation of Coward, I mean Broward County hunkering down outside they to a man, ranging from agents with federal agencies to both major SC law enforcement agencies (SLED and SCHP) to county deputies to my former small town Police Chief, stated this was still the standard that is being taught.

Broward County Sheriff's Dept and Sheriff Steve Israel are in for a world of hurt on this.

(03-01-2018 12:36 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-28-2018 10:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'm not going to cast too much blame here, or on the resource officer who didn't go into the building. These situations are always highly confused, and it may very well not be clear what is the right course of action. I make it a practice not to second guess stuff done in the heat of the battle, without a completely clear picture of what is happening inside. This is the same way as I have looked at actions which injure or kill civilians on a military battlefield. 20/20 hindsight may never be fair, but it is clearly unfair in those situations. Nobody knows what he/she would truly do in that situation until faced with it. If you know where the shooter is and can plan, then you might accomplish something, but rushing into certain death benefits nobody.

Now, fair or not, I don't give a rat's ass, I will criticize and condemn the inaction in the face of an obvious treat that allowed this situation to develop. It's the same way I looked at Benghazi. I don't criticize anyone who might have issued a stand-down order. If I had been in charge, I think I would have given such order. But whoever set that situation up in the first place needs to fry, just like here.

I will.

The actions of the Broward County deputies who were first on scene goes against the national training standard for response to mass shooting incidents. They either went against training and SOP, which is a leadership issue, had SOPs that did not meet the national standard which is also a failure of leadership or failed to obtain training that is easily available through multiple sources nationwide..which again is a failure of leadership,


In the class that I took going on eight years ago with my six man department(three full time and three reserve officers) we were told that the first arriving unit(s) went to the sound of gunfire and engaged the shooter. The #1 goal was to interdict the shooter. It didn't matter if it was a one man unit or a school bus load. In speaking with law enforcement friends still in the business about this since the revelation of Coward, I mean Broward County hunkering down outside they to a man, ranging from agents with federal agencies to both major SC law enforcement agencies (SLED and SCHP) to county deputies to my former small town Police Chief, stated this was still the standard that is being taught.

Broward County Sheriff's Dept and Sheriff Steve Israel are in for a world of hurt on this.

Do you see this as leadership? In no way do I think 4 cops turned coward. I just don't believe that.

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Cowards. Not only did they fail the kids the failed to capture the killer. He left the school and went to McDonalds or something and was walking down the street when they finally nabbed him.

Cowards AND failed leadership.

Israel (Not even going to refer to that bag of shite as a sheriff) has been too busy schmoozing with every big time democrat coming to town than effectively running his department. Not to mention all of the questionable re-election uses of county property. Dude is an absolute scum bag.

The officers should have gone at the shooter. It was a school for crying out loud. There were kids dying in there and they knew it. All while they hid behind their cars because they were ordered to "stage". Such BS. I have kids. If my boss told me to "stage" while I knew kids were in there dying... he can fire me later. Cowards.

(03-01-2018 12:41 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(03-01-2018 12:36 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(02-28-2018 10:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'm not going to cast too much blame here, or on the resource officer who didn't go into the building. These situations are always highly confused, and it may very well not be clear what is the right course of action. I make it a practice not to second guess stuff done in the heat of the battle, without a completely clear picture of what is happening inside. This is the same way as I have looked at actions which injure or kill civilians on a military battlefield. 20/20 hindsight may never be fair, but it is clearly unfair in those situations. Nobody knows what he/she would truly do in that situation until faced with it. If you know where the shooter is and can plan, then you might accomplish something, but rushing into certain death benefits nobody.

Now, fair or not, I don't give a rat's ass, I will criticize and condemn the inaction in the face of an obvious treat that allowed this situation to develop. It's the same way I looked at Benghazi. I don't criticize anyone who might have issued a stand-down order. If I had been in charge, I think I would have given such order. But whoever set that situation up in the first place needs to fry, just like here.

I will.

The actions of the Broward County deputies who were first on scene goes against the national training standard for response to mass shooting incidents. They either went against training and SOP, which is a leadership issue, had SOPs that did not meet the national standard which is also a failure of leadership or failed to obtain training that is easily available through multiple sources nationwide..which again is a failure of leadership,


In the class that I took going on eight years ago with my six man department(three full time and three reserve officers) we were told that the first arriving unit(s) went to the sound of gunfire and engaged the shooter. The #1 goal was to interdict the shooter. It didn't matter if it was a one man unit or a school bus load. In speaking with law enforcement friends still in the business about this since the revelation of Coward, I mean Broward County hunkering down outside they to a man, ranging from agents with federal agencies to both major SC law enforcement agencies (SLED and SCHP) to county deputies to my former small town Police Chief, stated this was still the standard that is being taught.

Broward County Sheriff's Dept and Sheriff Steve Israel are in for a world of hurt on this.

Do you see this as leadership? In no way do I think 4 cops turned coward. I just don't believe that.

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Yes I do. See above.

I've said multiple times that if he were an honorable man Israel would resign. Since he refuses then Florida should utilize the legal steps they have in place to remove him.

And I would make it clear from the beginning that Israel is only the first step. I'd charge the person that replaces Israel with a thorough and meticulous evaluation of the entire Broward County SO command staff down to the first line supervisors. Anybody not up to snuff is either demoted or fired. Strip those fired, including Israel, of their FDLE certifications as they have no business in law enforcement.

I thought it was a fairly standard law enforcement philosophy that officers are to immediately engage in spree shooting situations? That changed after Columbine I believe.

Have to agree. When kids lives are on the line, you go try to save as many as possible.

Yeah they need change their policy on this. Clown

(03-01-2018 09:52 AM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Have to agree. When kids lives are on the line, you go try to save as many as possible.

Had there been civilians with concealed carry on site my guess is those cops would have had to shoot some of them to keep the armed civilians from entering the building to save children’s lives. That would have been the only way to stop regular folks from doing what the first responders should have been doing.

I thought the lesson from Columbine was not to set up these staging areas. I thought the conventional wisdom was to rush to the gun fire now. My guess is that this is a nice community and many in the force didn't sign up to be shot at...so, they decided to "stage". If I remember correctly, the city cops showed up later and went straight into the building with a couple of the county cops that showed up at the same time. So, if that is the case, then their actions are probably not part of the training and procedure. Sounds like they didn't want any part of the shooting.

(02-28-2018 10:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'm not going to cast too much blame here, or on the resource officer who didn't go into the building. These situations are always highly confused, and it may very well not be clear what is the right course of action. I make it a practice not to second guess stuff done in the heat of the battle, without a completely clear picture of what is happening inside. This is the same way as I have looked at actions which injure or kill civilians on a military battlefield. 20/20 hindsight may never be fair, but it is clearly unfair in those situations. Nobody knows what he/she would truly do in that situation until faced with it. If you know where the shooter is and can plan, then you might accomplish something, but rushing into certain death benefits nobody.

Now, fair or not, I don't give a rat's ass, I will criticize and condemn the inaction in the face of an obvious treat that allowed this situation to develop. It's the same way I looked at Benghazi. I don't criticize anyone who might have issued a stand-down order. If I had been in charge, I think I would have given such order. But whoever set that situation up in the first place needs to fry, just like here.

They totally deserve blame. The first one, maybe he felt he needed backup. But 4 standing outside while shooting is going on? If they are going to do that, what is the purpose of a police force? Just be detectives and figure out who did it?