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ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #121
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-20-2020 09:26 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(07-20-2020 09:21 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-20-2020 08:28 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Duke and UVA were almost certain choices at the formation of the ACC. Their football programs were among the strongest in the region at the time. Wake was more of a stretch, but did have a better recent record in football than VT and a slightly better record than WVU. As the Big Ten and SEC recognized in their memberships, though, building around state flagships and land grants provides broad fan bases that are ultimately more important to conference success than recent past success. In that regard, VT, WVU or both would have been better choices in the long run than Wake. Duke's academic and athletic stature, though, were and are sufficient to justify their membership in any P5 conference despite lack of flagship or land grant status. (In general, to be strong P5 candidates, private universities must find some niche that is otherwise missed by a system limited to state flagship schools and their equivalents. Syracuse does this, for instance, because there is no state school in NY state in a P5 conference, which allows Syracuse to fill this role in Upstate NY, a region with a population larger than many states with 2 state schools in P5 conferences.)

I guess it was #GoACC right from the start?

UVA football prior to ACC invite
Year Won Lost Ties
1952 8 2
1951 8 1
1950 8 2
1949 7 2

UVA football after joining ACC
Year Won Lost Ties
1960 0 10
1959 0 10
1958 1 9
1957 3 6 1
1956 3 7
1955 1 9
1954 3 6
1953 1 8

I mean they didn't just decline, they absolutely collapsed (playing virtually the same schedule)!

Orange fan does not know of what he speaks. UVa was invited specifically to keep VT and WVa out. UVa was 1-8 in 1953 before their invite.

According to this article, UVA was invited to join the ACC on October 9, 1953. https://virginia.sportswar.com/article/2...ce-part-3/ At that point in the season, they were 0-2 following a number of successful seasons in a row. The article does point out that, subsequent to joining, Virginia failed to offer as many scholarships as other members, which undoubtedly contributed to the collapse of the program beginning in 1953. The article also discusses the interest of VT and WVU in joining, as well as several other schools, but that the members wanted to limit membership to 8.
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2020 12:18 PM by orangefan.)
07-21-2020 12:15 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #122
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
What about Mike Aresco? Would the ACC give any thought to hiring him?
07-21-2020 01:13 PM
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CoastalJuan Offline
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Post: #123
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-21-2020 01:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What about Mike Aresco? Would the ACC give any thought to hiring him?

I've already come to terms with the fact the he's who they are hiring. Doing too good a job.
07-21-2020 02:57 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #124
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-21-2020 12:15 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-20-2020 09:26 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(07-20-2020 09:21 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-20-2020 08:28 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Duke and UVA were almost certain choices at the formation of the ACC. Their football programs were among the strongest in the region at the time. Wake was more of a stretch, but did have a better recent record in football than VT and a slightly better record than WVU. As the Big Ten and SEC recognized in their memberships, though, building around state flagships and land grants provides broad fan bases that are ultimately more important to conference success than recent past success. In that regard, VT, WVU or both would have been better choices in the long run than Wake. Duke's academic and athletic stature, though, were and are sufficient to justify their membership in any P5 conference despite lack of flagship or land grant status. (In general, to be strong P5 candidates, private universities must find some niche that is otherwise missed by a system limited to state flagship schools and their equivalents. Syracuse does this, for instance, because there is no state school in NY state in a P5 conference, which allows Syracuse to fill this role in Upstate NY, a region with a population larger than many states with 2 state schools in P5 conferences.)

I guess it was #GoACC right from the start?

UVA football prior to ACC invite
Year Won Lost Ties
1952 8 2
1951 8 1
1950 8 2
1949 7 2

UVA football after joining ACC
Year Won Lost Ties
1960 0 10
1959 0 10
1958 1 9
1957 3 6 1
1956 3 7
1955 1 9
1954 3 6
1953 1 8

I mean they didn't just decline, they absolutely collapsed (playing virtually the same schedule)!

Orange fan does not know of what he speaks. UVa was invited specifically to keep VT and WVa out. UVa was 1-8 in 1953 before their invite.

According to this article, UVA was invited to join the ACC on October 9, 1953. https://virginia.sportswar.com/article/2...ce-part-3/ At that point in the season, they were 0-2 following a number of successful seasons in a row. The article does point out that, subsequent to joining, Virginia failed to offer as many scholarships as other members, which undoubtedly contributed to the collapse of the program beginning in 1953. The article also discusses the interest of VT and WVU in joining, as well as several other schools, but that the members wanted to limit membership to 8.

No, Uva was voted in at the December meeting. A phone call from Columbia is not official. A Syracuse fan of all people should understand that until a final vote is taken, nothing is official.
07-21-2020 03:25 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #125
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
Orange - you are missing the point - the ACC did not form out of whole cloth. It was not put together as a new construct but was a reverse way of tossing out the small schools plus WVa and VT who had pissed off MD and Clemson on a personal level.

The Newspapers of Record for the formation of the ACC is the Greensboro News and Record and the Richmond Times Dispatch. Two generations before Dave Teel there was Bill Brill.

There is NOTHING new about the ACC or the actions of its members that is any different from 1921 to 1953 to 2012.


SOUTHERN/ACC SPLIT SURPRISED SOME
BY LARRY KEECH Staff Writer Feb 25, 1996 Updated Jan 25, 2015
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Few remember the watershed event that split the ACC from the Southern Conference in Greensboro 43 years ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For an institution like a college athletic conference, 75 years may not seem like an especially long history.


Many lifetimes are longer.And yet, it's safe to say that no one who attends this weekend's Southern Conference basketball tournament at the Greensboro Coliseum can remember the watershed event in SC history that took place 43 years ago and only a few miles down High Point Road.

Few of the first-hand witnesses to the division of the Southern Conference and formation of the Atlantic Coast Conference in 1953 are still living in 1996.

The Southern Conference became the original collegiate athletic alliance in the South when it was formed in 1921. Within a decade, it grew to encompass 23 member schools in the old Confederate crescent that stretched from Virginia to Louisiana.

In 1932, the conference's sheer geographical unwieldiness and the impracticality of competitive travel prompted the 13 members south and west of the Appalachian mountains to split and form the Southeastern Conference.

During the next 20 years, the growth of college sports was accompanied by expansion of the SC from 10 teams to 17.

But by the early 1950s, other problems resulted from the conference's size and diversity. While some of the larger state institutions began to commit their resources to big-time, big-budget football programs, administrators of smaller schools sought to de-emphasize athletics in relation to academic interests. Competitive imbalance and political differences resulted.

The key issues came to a head as early as the 1951 football season. Earlier that year, college sports had encountered scandals involving the ``fixing' of basketball games by players and ``cribbing' or classroom cheating among football players on Army's nationally prominent team.

In September 1951, the NCAA Council issued 12 recommendations for its members for the conduct of college athletics. They included limiting the number of games in each sport and reevaluating postseason games because of the pressures they created.

Dr. Gordon Gray, president of the University of North Carolina, called a meeting of Southern Conference presidents in Chapel Hill later that month ``for the purpose of discussing ways and means of effecting improvement in the organization, management and direction of intercollegiate athletics.'

At the meeting, the presidents forwarded a recommendation that the conference adopt a rule to abolish bowl games and declared an intent to refuse permission for any school to participate in a bowl game on New Year's Day, 1952.

Jim Tatum, the football coach who had built a powerhouse team at Maryland, wasn't about to sit still and accept such a ruling. Also the Maryland athletics director, Tatum knew he enjoyed the support of H.C. ``Curley' Byrd, Maryland's president and himself a former Terrapin football coach.

Even though Tatum's Maryland team completed a perfect 9-0 season in '51, the Terps' 5-0 record earned them only a share of the Southern Conference championship with VMI, which beat five generally lesser SC opponents and finished 7-3.

Maryland then contracted to face Tennessee in the Sugar Bowl before seeking sanction from the conference in the SC's annual December meeting, choosing to assume that the sanction would be a formality as it had been in the past. The conference, however, voted 14-3 to deny permission to Maryland and voted 12-5 to adopt a resolution that would place any member on probation for a year if it participated in a bowl game in 1952 or thereafter.

Not only did Maryland play in the Sugar Bowl, beating Tennessee 28-13, but Clemson played in the Gator Bowl the same day, losing to Miami 14-0.




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Frank Howard, Clemson's coach and athletics director, became Tatum's first ally in breaking from the Southern Conference. Clemson played only two conference games in the fall of '52, losing to Maryland and South Carolina. Maryland played no others.

By the time the Southern Conference held a spring meeting at Greensboro's Sedgefield Inn on a weekend in May 1953, Tatum and Howard had mustered enough political support to split the Southern Conference in half.

Maryland and Clemson were joined by South Carolina and North Carolina's Big Four - Duke, UNC, N.C. State and Wake Forest - in breaking with the SC to form a new conference.

The day before that meeting began, the presidents of those schools had met in Chapel Hill and endorsed the split.

Although there had been rumblings about such a division, it took place with stunning suddenness.

``I think most of the people left in it (the Southern Conference) were surprised,' Wallace Wade, the longtime Duke football coach, was quoted as saying some years ago.

``It was a complete surprise to me, and I thought I knew Duke about as well as anybody,' said Wade, who became the SC's commissioner in 1951 and held the same job for both conferences until the summer of '54. ``I knew there was interest in it, and I knew they were talking about it, but I had no idea they had developed a program the extent that they had when they sprang it in Greensboro that day.'

Later in 1953, the membership of the new league voted to name it the Atlantic Coast Conference, instead of the Mid-South Conference or the South Atlantic Conference. They were soon joined by Virginia, which had left the Southern Conference and pursued independent status since 1937.

After the ACC split, the Southern Conference membership consisted of The Citadel, Davidson, Furman, George Washington, Richmond, VMI, Virginia Tech, Washington & Lee, West Virginia and William & Mary.

Only four of those schools remain in the Southern Conference in 1996. VMI has been a member since 1924. The Citadel, Davidson and Furman joined in '36.
07-21-2020 03:37 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #126
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-21-2020 03:37 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Orange - you are missing the point - the ACC did not form out of whole cloth. It was not put together as a new construct but was a reverse way of tossing out the small schools plus WVa and VT who had pissed off MD and Clemson on a personal level.

The Newspapers of Record for the formation of the ACC is the Greensboro News and Record and the Richmond Times Dispatch. Two generations before Dave Teel there was Bill Brill.

There is NOTHING new about the ACC or the actions of its members that is any different from 1921 to 1953 to 2012.


SOUTHERN/ACC SPLIT SURPRISED SOME
BY LARRY KEECH Staff Writer Feb 25, 1996 Updated Jan 25, 2015
Facebook
Twitter
Email
Facebook
Twitter
Email
Print
Save
Few remember the watershed event that split the ACC from the Southern Conference in Greensboro 43 years ago.

~~~~~~~~~~~

For an institution like a college athletic conference, 75 years may not seem like an especially long history.


Many lifetimes are longer.And yet, it's safe to say that no one who attends this weekend's Southern Conference basketball tournament at the Greensboro Coliseum can remember the watershed event in SC history that took place 43 years ago and only a few miles down High Point Road.

Few of the first-hand witnesses to the division of the Southern Conference and formation of the Atlantic Coast Conference in 1953 are still living in 1996.

The Southern Conference became the original collegiate athletic alliance in the South when it was formed in 1921. Within a decade, it grew to encompass 23 member schools in the old Confederate crescent that stretched from Virginia to Louisiana.

In 1932, the conference's sheer geographical unwieldiness and the impracticality of competitive travel prompted the 13 members south and west of the Appalachian mountains to split and form the Southeastern Conference.

During the next 20 years, the growth of college sports was accompanied by expansion of the SC from 10 teams to 17.

But by the early 1950s, other problems resulted from the conference's size and diversity. While some of the larger state institutions began to commit their resources to big-time, big-budget football programs, administrators of smaller schools sought to de-emphasize athletics in relation to academic interests. Competitive imbalance and political differences resulted.

The key issues came to a head as early as the 1951 football season. Earlier that year, college sports had encountered scandals involving the ``fixing' of basketball games by players and ``cribbing' or classroom cheating among football players on Army's nationally prominent team.

In September 1951, the NCAA Council issued 12 recommendations for its members for the conduct of college athletics. They included limiting the number of games in each sport and reevaluating postseason games because of the pressures they created.

Dr. Gordon Gray, president of the University of North Carolina, called a meeting of Southern Conference presidents in Chapel Hill later that month ``for the purpose of discussing ways and means of effecting improvement in the organization, management and direction of intercollegiate athletics.'

At the meeting, the presidents forwarded a recommendation that the conference adopt a rule to abolish bowl games and declared an intent to refuse permission for any school to participate in a bowl game on New Year's Day, 1952.

Jim Tatum, the football coach who had built a powerhouse team at Maryland, wasn't about to sit still and accept such a ruling. Also the Maryland athletics director, Tatum knew he enjoyed the support of H.C. ``Curley' Byrd, Maryland's president and himself a former Terrapin football coach.

Even though Tatum's Maryland team completed a perfect 9-0 season in '51, the Terps' 5-0 record earned them only a share of the Southern Conference championship with VMI, which beat five generally lesser SC opponents and finished 7-3.

Maryland then contracted to face Tennessee in the Sugar Bowl before seeking sanction from the conference in the SC's annual December meeting, choosing to assume that the sanction would be a formality as it had been in the past. The conference, however, voted 14-3 to deny permission to Maryland and voted 12-5 to adopt a resolution that would place any member on probation for a year if it participated in a bowl game in 1952 or thereafter.

Not only did Maryland play in the Sugar Bowl, beating Tennessee 28-13, but Clemson played in the Gator Bowl the same day, losing to Miami 14-0.




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Frank Howard, Clemson's coach and athletics director, became Tatum's first ally in breaking from the Southern Conference. Clemson played only two conference games in the fall of '52, losing to Maryland and South Carolina. Maryland played no others.

By the time the Southern Conference held a spring meeting at Greensboro's Sedgefield Inn on a weekend in May 1953, Tatum and Howard had mustered enough political support to split the Southern Conference in half.

Maryland and Clemson were joined by South Carolina and North Carolina's Big Four - Duke, UNC, N.C. State and Wake Forest - in breaking with the SC to form a new conference.

The day before that meeting began, the presidents of those schools had met in Chapel Hill and endorsed the split.

Although there had been rumblings about such a division, it took place with stunning suddenness.

``I think most of the people left in it (the Southern Conference) were surprised,' Wallace Wade, the longtime Duke football coach, was quoted as saying some years ago.

``It was a complete surprise to me, and I thought I knew Duke about as well as anybody,' said Wade, who became the SC's commissioner in 1951 and held the same job for both conferences until the summer of '54. ``I knew there was interest in it, and I knew they were talking about it, but I had no idea they had developed a program the extent that they had when they sprang it in Greensboro that day.'

Later in 1953, the membership of the new league voted to name it the Atlantic Coast Conference, instead of the Mid-South Conference or the South Atlantic Conference. They were soon joined by Virginia, which had left the Southern Conference and pursued independent status since 1937.

After the ACC split, the Southern Conference membership consisted of The Citadel, Davidson, Furman, George Washington, Richmond, VMI, Virginia Tech, Washington & Lee, West Virginia and William & Mary.

Only four of those schools remain in the Southern Conference in 1996. VMI has been a member since 1924. The Citadel, Davidson and Furman joined in '36.

StateFan - I appreciate your insights and your better knowledge of ACC history. I too am an amateur college sports historian. I was initially commenting on the many factors at play in the early 50's leading schools and conferences seeking to increase their commitment to college athletics, led by the Big Ten, and those seeking to deemphasize the importance of athletics, led by a group of future members of the Ivy League. I agree with your comment that the "ACC was pulled out of the SC so that MD, Duke, and Clemson could have their way." They were among the schools in the Big Ten camp. This also supports my conclusion that Duke was an almost certain choice for the ACC if Duke had interest.

The article that I cited before, https://virginia.sportswar.com/article/2...ce-part-3/ , discusses Virginia's invitation. It suggests Duke was against expanding further, but that UNC strongly supported Virginia's invitation. While not as much of a sure thing as Duke, Virginia did have a strong resume. Their collapse as a competitive football program came after their invitation to the ACC.

With respect to VT and WVU, it has been well established in other threads that they lacked the support to obtain an invitation. My comment vis-a-vis Wake Forest was only to point out that as a flagship and land grant, WVU and VT may have served as stronger conference members in the long run. However, at the time WFU was absolutely a solid candidate.
(This post was last modified: 07-21-2020 05:29 PM by orangefan.)
07-21-2020 05:28 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #127
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
That’s it, I’ve read enough. Penn to the ACC, bring on the Palestra!
07-21-2020 06:48 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #128
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-21-2020 06:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  That’s it, I’ve read enough. Penn to the ACC, bring on the Palestra!

Duke's position on race would have been untenable for Penn by the late 1950's. The State of Virginia's adherence to "massive resistance" would also be untenable for Penn.
07-21-2020 08:19 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #129
RE: ACC Commissioner John Swofford to retire
(07-21-2020 06:48 PM)esayem Wrote:  That’s it, I’ve read enough. Penn to the ACC, bring on the Palestra!

Quaker football, Franklin Field...a perennial power football program for 70 years with deep pockets and excellent recruiting geography.
That would be a good add.
07-21-2020 09:13 PM
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