(01-15-2022 11:58 AM)Tribal Wrote:  About grass always being greener on the other side…fake grass is always green.


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Not at Boise State

(01-15-2022 12:00 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 11:58 AM)Tribal Wrote:  About grass always being greener on the other side…fake grass is always green.

Not at Boise State

... or at Eastern Washington.

(01-15-2022 12:12 PM)billymac Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 12:00 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 11:58 AM)Tribal Wrote:  About grass always being greener on the other side…fake grass is always green.

Not at Boise State

... or at Eastern Washington.

I coach a high school frisbee team, the school recently renovated their field to have blue turf. The first time I was on it was quite jarring, to say the least.

It should be illegal to have anything but a green field


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In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

(01-15-2022 12:12 PM)billymac Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 12:00 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 11:58 AM)Tribal Wrote:  About grass always being greener on the other side…fake grass is always green.

Not at Boise State

... or at Eastern Washington.

and Central Arkansas has purple turf.

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I'm willing to bet there's a fairly sizeable generational split here

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I don't know about where they live now, but it's been true for some time that the majority of students are from north of Fredericksburg. Even Richmond is closer to Philly than it is to, say, Charlotte. Certainly DC is the single biggest market for our alums across all age groups. Some of the MBB games at Mason, American, Howard have been near 50-50 splits. You don't get that when we play Elon, Wilmington, High Point, Davidson etc.

Daily Press reported yesterday that Hampton is moving to the CAA...they cited sources withing the school.

(01-15-2022 10:58 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I'm willing to bet there's a fairly sizeable generational split here

Apparently so. If you would have told me in the 70s that we would later be in a conference with Hampton, Towson, Elon and Howard, I would have thrown up.

(01-16-2022 10:24 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:58 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I'm willing to bet there's a fairly sizeable generational split here

Apparently so. If you would have told me in the 70s that we would later be in a conference with Hampton, Towson, Elon and Howard, I would have thrown up.

Absolutely right! We have been left behind by every one of our former peers (except VMI) and even been passed by schools that were barely Division I back then (JMU, VCU, ODU). Blame it all on Thomas Graves.

(01-16-2022 10:36 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 10:24 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:58 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I'm willing to bet there's a fairly sizeable generational split here

Apparently so. If you would have told me in the 70s that we would later be in a conference with Hampton, Towson, Elon and Howard, I would have thrown up.

Absolutely right! We have been left behind by every one of our former peers (except VMI) and even been passed by schools that were barely Division I back then (JMU, VCU, ODU). Blame it all on Thomas Graves.

Bingo! W&M's athletic fate was sealed in the 70's by not expanding Cary Field, not pursuing ACC membership, letting Lou Holtz leave for NC State and by limiting student population growth due to Ivy League type of academic standards. Yes, the blame can be placed on Thomas Graves.

(01-16-2022 10:36 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 10:24 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:58 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 10:55 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(01-15-2022 02:56 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  In theory I like what TDenver is suggesting about playing games where a majority of our alumni live and work. But the tough thing about the northeast is it's a crowded market with a limited attention span, especially for college football. From a growth perspective, it is not where I would want to position our program. The southeast, on the other hand, loves college football. States like Georgia and North Carolina are recruiting hotbeds. The sun belt region is growing quickly.

However I think if WM transitioned toward a basketball-first athletic department, then a northward focus would make plenty of sense.

The majority of our alumni live in Virginia! Those of us native to Virginia would still prefer to travel to NC to see games over the DC, Baltimore and Philly area. Therefore a northern focus conference I am against.

Agree we need to focus on MBB but I would argue that MBB is more important than football in NC or at least of equal standing.

Either create a North and South division in the CAA or affiliate with a conference with better roots in NC and TN.

I'm willing to bet there's a fairly sizeable generational split here

Apparently so. If you would have told me in the 70s that we would later be in a conference with Hampton, Towson, Elon and Howard, I would have thrown up.

Absolutely right! We have been left behind by every one of our former peers (except VMI) and even been passed by schools that were barely Division I back then (JMU, VCU, ODU). Blame it all on Thomas Graves.

On the flip side, I wouldn’t consider CUSA or Sun Belt any better.

The only bigger option I would see as a fit for W&M would be AAC in terms of fellow schools

Maybe the Ivy will try and expand with all the motion and we could approach that some day. That would be Graves saving grace.

(01-16-2022 10:36 AM)Zorch Wrote:  Absolutely right! We have been left behind by every one of our former peers (except VMI) and even been passed by schools that were barely Division I back then (JMU, VCU, ODU). Blame it all on Thomas Graves.

100% agree and it's a damn shame but I have no idea what to do about it. There aren't a ton of compelling options that are also interested in W&M.

People here are aware that the 1970s are 50 years ago right? Appy State was around 10 years old when the events being discussed occurred. At one point in our history, our athletic peers were simply other Virginia universities that existed.

The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

(01-16-2022 12:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

Good examples are Duke and Wake Forest.

The point is that MBB can change the image of the Athletic program with success. it was the intent in the 1970's with the W&M Hall and the goal in the spring of 2019 when the Kap renovation was announced. It is still doable at W&M with the correct focus of resources and impacted by the conference affiliation!

(01-16-2022 12:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  People here are aware that the 1970s are 50 years ago right? Appy State was around 10 years old when the events being discussed occurred. At one point in our history, our athletic peers were simply other Virginia universities that existed.

The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

I completely take issue with this opinion.

Having attended W&M from 1976 through 1980, I would state the following.

In 1976, W&M was affordable, had a cross in the Wren Chapel, was the Indians, had the feathers, was a member of the SoCon, emphasized its undergraduate nature, was not top-heavy on the administrative side, was an academic peer of UVa, and was an athletic peer of UVa and VPI.

Currently, W&M is not affordable, the cross is under glass, the Indians are gone, the feathers are gone, is a member of the CAA, has sought to move away from its undergraduate nature, is top-heavy on the administrative side, is still an academic peer of UVa (?), and is no longer an athletic peer of UVa and VPI.

The point being made here, month after month, is that W&M lost its focus over the past 50 years, ceded too much territory in too many areas, and is no longer recognizable as the College that it was in the 70’s.

Some on here will call that progress. Some on here will call that the march of time.

I call it deterioration, and, for the most part, a self-inflicted wound. So be it.

(01-16-2022 12:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  People here are aware that the 1970s are 50 years ago right? Appy State was around 10 years old when the events being discussed occurred. At one point in our history, our athletic peers were simply other Virginia universities that existed.

The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

50 years ago, yes, but this proves the point that mistakes made at crucial pivot points can still be costing and haunting an entity many years and generations later.

Also, there may have been only two stories a week in the newspaper back then but at least W&M was being covered by every major state paper. Now we can't even get coverage in the Daily Press !!!

(01-16-2022 12:43 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(01-16-2022 12:14 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  People here are aware that the 1970s are 50 years ago right? Appy State was around 10 years old when the events being discussed occurred. At one point in our history, our athletic peers were simply other Virginia universities that existed.

The case being made here at least once a month is that William & Mary, a school with an elite academic pedigree that dwarfed its athletic side, should have focused more on athletics 50 years ago when sports were covered in a single story in a newspaper the day after a game. How could anyone have been so foolish?

I completely take issue with this opinion.

Having attended W&M from 1976 through 1980, I would state the following.

In 1976, W&M was affordable, had a cross in the Wren Chapel, was the Indians, had the feathers, was a member of the SoCon, emphasized its undergraduate nature, was not top-heavy on the administrative side, was an academic peer of UVa, and was an athletic peer of UVa and VPI.

Currently, W&M is not affordable, the cross is under glass, the Indians are gone, the feathers are gone, is a member of the CAA, has sought to move away from its undergraduate nature, is top-heavy on the administrative side, is still an academic peer of UVa (?), and is no longer an athletic peer of UVa and VPI.

The point being made here, month after month, is that W&M lost its focus over the past 50 years, ceded too much territory in too many areas, and is no longer recognizable as the College that it was in the 70’s.

Some on here will call that progress. Some on here will call that the march of time.

I call it deterioration, and, for the most part, a self-inflicted wound. So be it.

Can't disagree with much in this post if anything. I'll add that we got very comfortable with being a geeky liberal arts school (like that was cool). The reality is that most students nowadays aren't looking for that any more. I credit Rowe, Pulley, and others with moving us forwad recently to more modern think related to digitization, technology, etc. Things have changed a lot in the last 50 years with academia, work/jobs, athletics, etc. We've not changed that much.