(01-26-2022 12:54 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  I have Mussina in mind. I get that he represents the type of user that wasn't egregious, but I don't like that as justification for completely shutting them out. I'm not sure Sosa was more egregious than Bagwell for example.

I'm not convinced Bonds and Clemens are being excluded because they were arrogant and egregious users, or because they were arrogant and egregious jerks and that bothers me.

It's a different story for the borderline HOF types. If you're already a borderline HOFer rather than sure bet, PEDs becomes the "tiebreaker vote", even if you weren't an egregious user.

So for more borderline guys like Sosa and Mussina, they get dinged for PEDs and get shut out. Probably unfairly in some cases. Bagwell was less of a borderline guy, so he got in. Though it did take him until the 7th ballot.

(01-26-2022 12:25 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 11:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 11:37 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  I also think the HOF needs to create an entire wing in Cooperstown dedicated to the "Steroid Era", if they haven't already. Acknowledge how big of a factor it was in the game from the 80s-present, instead of trying to hide from it.

I agree. Acknowledge it for what it was. Once you let Pudge, Piazza and Bagwell in, it's hard to justify keeping the others. The other issue I have with trying to police users after the fact is there undoubtedly guys in the HOF that used steroids that I would find surprising.

The writers tended to know who was using, which explains why certain players took longer to get in than others. If a HR guy didn't get in first ballot when he seemed like an obvious choice, that's a clue.

For instance: Even as a Mets fan, I acknowledge Mike Piazza was using, even if he was never caught. Which is why he didn't get in until the 4th ballot.

I could buy all of this...

until they put David Ortiz (had a positive test) in on his first ballot.

(01-26-2022 03:14 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 12:54 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  I have Mussina in mind. I get that he represents the type of user that wasn't egregious, but I don't like that as justification for completely shutting them out. I'm not sure Sosa was more egregious than Bagwell for example.

I'm not convinced Bonds and Clemens are being excluded because they were arrogant and egregious users, or because they were arrogant and egregious jerks and that bothers me.

It's a different story for the borderline HOF types. If you're already a borderline HOFer rather than sure bet, PEDs becomes the "tiebreaker vote", even if you weren't an egregious user.

So for more borderline guys like Sosa and Mussina, they get dinged for PEDs and get shut out. Probably unfairly in some cases. Bagwell was less of a borderline guy, so he got in. Though it did take him until the 7th ballot.

If Ortiz is first ballet, Sosa isn't borderline.

(01-26-2022 03:48 PM)B_Hawk06 Wrote:  I could buy all of this...

until they put David Ortiz (had a positive test) in on his first ballot.

I don't think he should have been a 1st ballot guy either due to the PEDs, but I certainly don't think his resume was "borderline". 541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP, plus a Roberto Clemente Award to boot. That's a locked in HOF resume.

(01-26-2022 04:04 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 03:48 PM)B_Hawk06 Wrote:  I could buy all of this...

until they put David Ortiz (had a positive test) in on his first ballot.

I don't think he should have been a 1st ballot guy either due to the PEDs, but I certainly don't think his resume was "borderline". 541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP, plus a Roberto Clemente Award to boot. That's a locked in HOF resume.

Ortiz is a lock and Sosa is borderline. Let's take a look:

Ortiz:
541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP

Sammy Sosa
609 HR (9th all-time), career slash of .273/.344/.534 over a 19-year career, 7x All-Star, 6x Silver Slugger, Hank Aaron Award along with Roberto Clemente Award and NL MVP (he finished 2nd to Bonds during the 2001 season too.

Ortiz has slightly better numbers other than HR, and obviously he has post-season success. Watching Sammy carry Chicago to the playoffs in 1998 was arguably more impressive than any of Ortiz's post-season hits. I'm kidding, mostly, but he made a bad team relevant. Sammy never had a chance to hit in front of Manny Ramirez in a playoff series either.

Sosa also played a baseball position, 234 career SB, and has a higher career WAR (58>55). Things ended poorly for Sammy, in Chicago, and in general. I'm biased and I don't know how the corked bat effects things, but his resume is not borderline.

Here is a trivia question for you baseball fans. There are only two players in baseball history that led a decade in total hits that are not in the HOF. Who are they?

(01-26-2022 04:37 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  Here is a trivia question for you baseball fans. There are only two players in baseball history that led a decade in total hits that are not in the HOF. Who are they?

Hmm. Bill Madlock and Dale Murphy?

Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

(01-26-2022 04:04 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 03:48 PM)B_Hawk06 Wrote:  I could buy all of this...

until they put David Ortiz (had a positive test) in on his first ballot.

I don't think he should have been a 1st ballot guy either due to the PEDs, but I certainly don't think his resume was "borderline". 541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP, plus a Roberto Clemente Award to boot. That's a locked in HOF resume.

And he completely sucked until he got to Boston and got on some of Manny's sauce. .266 58 HR in 455 games in Minn. This isn't like Bonds who was pretty great before the body transformation, He sucked.

(01-26-2022 04:35 PM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 04:04 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 03:48 PM)B_Hawk06 Wrote:  I could buy all of this...

until they put David Ortiz (had a positive test) in on his first ballot.

I don't think he should have been a 1st ballot guy either due to the PEDs, but I certainly don't think his resume was "borderline". 541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP, plus a Roberto Clemente Award to boot. That's a locked in HOF resume.

Ortiz is a lock and Sosa is borderline. Let's take a look:

Ortiz:
541 HR (17th all-time), career slash line of .286/.380/.552 over a 20-year career, 10x All-Star, 7x Silver Slugger, 2x Hank Aaron Award, 1x Babe Ruth Award and 1 WS MVP

Sammy Sosa
609 HR (9th all-time), career slash of .273/.344/.534 over a 19-year career, 7x All-Star, 6x Silver Slugger, Hank Aaron Award along with Roberto Clemente Award and NL MVP (he finished 2nd to Bonds during the 2001 season too.

Ortiz has slightly better numbers other than HR, and obviously he has post-season success. Watching Sammy carry Chicago to the playoffs in 1998 was arguably more impressive than any of Ortiz's post-season hits. I'm kidding, mostly, but he made a bad team relevant. Sammy never had a chance to hit in front of Manny Ramirez in a playoff series either.

Sosa also played a baseball position, 234 career SB, and has a higher career WAR (58>55). Things ended poorly for Sammy, in Chicago, and in general. I'm biased and I don't know how the corked bat effects things, but his resume is not borderline.

And Sosa played the field. .....

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

(01-27-2022 08:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

I work with said friend, i pinged him this question and it took him 30 seconds to answer haha. He said that's his favorite stat when people laugh at Grace being his fav player. Where i grew up, the Cubs double A affiliate was 25 mins away, the Pittsfield Cubs. I shared the field for the national anthem in little league with many of those guys. I got to stand on the mound with Maddux at 9 years old, pretty incredible. Look at this roster:
https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseball/...799/y-1986

(01-27-2022 09:03 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

I work with said friend, i pinged him this question and it took him 30 seconds to answer haha. He said that's his favorite stat when people laugh at Grace being his fav player. Where i grew up, the Cubs double A affiliate was 25 mins away, the Pittsfield Cubs. I shared the field for the national anthem in little league with many of those guys. I got to stand on the mound with Maddux at 9 years old, pretty incredible. Look at this roster:
https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseball/...799/y-1986

Maddux, Moyer and Lancaster is a good AA rotation. No idea why, but I remember Varsho and he stuck in the league for close to 600 games. Palmeiro, of course is there. Anybody I overlooked?

(01-27-2022 09:50 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 09:03 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

I work with said friend, i pinged him this question and it took him 30 seconds to answer haha. He said that's his favorite stat when people laugh at Grace being his fav player. Where i grew up, the Cubs double A affiliate was 25 mins away, the Pittsfield Cubs. I shared the field for the national anthem in little league with many of those guys. I got to stand on the mound with Maddux at 9 years old, pretty incredible. Look at this roster:
https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseball/...799/y-1986

Maddux, Moyer and Lancaster is a good AA rotation. No idea why, but I remember Varsho and he stuck in the league for close to 600 games. Palmeiro, of course is there. Anybody I overlooked?

I believe Barryhill stuck in the bigs for a while too. Grace was there in 87
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield_Cubs

After 88 they changed to a Mets affiliate

(01-27-2022 09:03 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 09:11 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  Oh duh, Rose must be one of them…

Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

He said that's his favorite stat when people laugh at Grace being his fav player.

I always felt like he was underappreciated. 4 GG and 3x AS, but never as much fanfare as Bagwell, Olerud, McGriff, or Clark in the NL. Felt like Galarraga sometimes got more credit than Gracie.

(01-27-2022 09:58 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 09:03 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:53 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:32 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  

(01-27-2022 08:27 AM)bricksnivy Wrote:  Rose is one. Murphy a decent guess, but not it.

Second player was born in Winston-Salem. His baseball career led him back to NC, but he doesn't have a strong connection to the state. Most hits in the 90s.

My good friends childhood idol, Mr. Mark Grace!

He was a fun baseball player and really, really good. Played for the W-S Spirits when they were a Cubs affiliate.

1990s hits leaders:

1 Mark Grace 1754
2 Rafael Palmeiro 1747
3 Craig Biggio 1728
4 Tony Gwynn 1713
5 Roberto Alomar 1678
6 Ken Griffey 1622
7 Cal Ripken 1589

He said that's his favorite stat when people laugh at Grace being his fav player.

I always felt like he was underappreciated. 4 GG and 3x AS, but never as much fanfare as Bagwell, Olerud, McGriff, or Clark in the NL. Felt like Galarraga sometimes got more credit than Gracie.

Mine was Donny Baseball, we often joke about A, how similar they were and B, how they both are a bit under appreciated. If Donny's back would have held out 5,6 more years not only would he have gotten a title(or 2 or 3) but he'd likely be in the HOF.

(01-26-2022 03:14 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  So for more borderline guys like Sosa and Mussina, they get dinged for PEDs and get shut out. Probably unfairly in some cases. Bagwell was less of a borderline guy, so he got in. Though it did take him until the 7th ballot.

I'm a Yankee fan, and I was disappointed by how low a percent Mussina got on the first ballot. He was inducted in 2019. He had 270 wins including eight seasons with at least 17. As a Yankee fan it wasn't great to have Ortiz get in the day before my birthday, but he was deserving.

(01-29-2022 01:01 PM)EvanJ Wrote:  

(01-26-2022 03:14 PM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  So for more borderline guys like Sosa and Mussina, they get dinged for PEDs and get shut out. Probably unfairly in some cases. Bagwell was less of a borderline guy, so he got in. Though it did take him until the 7th ballot.

I'm a Yankee fan, and I was disappointed by how low a percent Mussina got on the first ballot. He was inducted in 2019. He had 270 wins including eight seasons with at least 17. As a Yankee fan it wasn't great to have Ortiz get in the day before my birthday, but he was deserving.

It’s the point of Ortiz being in and guys like Bonds etc out


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