(02-14-2022 02:21 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. Notre Dame did not cause the Big East to collapse and won't be the cause of an ACC collapse. But Notre Dame does suffer from being the Flying Dutchman of College Football. They get sweetheart deals for sports other than football from conferences with inherent weaknesses which ND's other sports don't help and which ND football only enhances marginally. The result is it delays the demise of their host but doesn't prevent it. Therefore, they board less seaworthy vessels which then sink, and ND gets a bad rep about it.

2. What you say about the state of ACC sports product is true and NIL will only make it worse, but not because the ACC is incapable of solid NIL interest, but because athletes connect success with NIL likelihood and exposure and will seek higher profile programs because of it. So instead of leveling the competition for talent it actually tilts it more. This will make producing better product less and less likely.

3. It is this acceleration of gap which will propel us toward larger conferences and more consolidation as brands race for these groups like those on the deck of the Titanic raced for un-lowered lifeboats. The SEC and B1G 10 don't have do anything right at this moment, they only have to look strong. When they do something right is magnified by perceived threat everywhere else.

Really nailed it with those three points.

Notre Dame won't have too much of a problem hammering out a football schedule as long as the ACC as we know it remains intact.

But, again, what happens if say Clemson and/or FSU jump on an opportunity to join the SEC? And then UNC, UVA and Duke begin to look toward the B1G? And the expanded SEC and expanded B1G both play 9-game conference schedules, leaving no room for (or interest in) mid- and late-season games against an opponent with the stature of the Irish?

Does Notre Dame stay put and make the best of a scheduling alliance with a dwindling number of marquee football programs in a (likely) back-filled ACC? Would the school's administration and fan base be content with a schedule filled with games against the likes of Pitt and Boston College and Syracuse to go with annual matchups with USC, Navy and Stanford?

I ask because I don't know Notre Dame's "mindset" well enough to say.

And how might a "less glamorous" home schedule impact an upcoming TV renewal or deal, dollars-wise?

ND's seven-game home schedule next season consists of Marshall, Cal, Stanford, UNLV, Syracuse, Clemson and BC. Some years will, on paper, look better and some may not. Regardless, how much money will a media partner be willing to shell out strictly for rights to 7 home football games against a schedule like that?

Notre Dame might not belong to football conference, but I think Irish football may end up being affected by realignment just about as much as anyone when it's all said and done.

When it comes to ND and the ACC, a lot of things are dressed up as self-interest:

- Domer version of "self-interest" is that while they historically looked to playing programs in the Northeast they actually look down on Northeastern programs, with the noted exception of Pitt and maybe Boston College. Former Big East programs like Syracuse, Rutgers, Connecticut, Temple and West Virginia can tell you stories about how the Domers really think of them as programs and fanbases. Domer arrogance is as long as their history. As much as been written about the bad blood between ND and certain Big Ten programs, the other side of that coin is the bad blood generated by how the Domers behaved as a quasi member of the Big East. They begrudgingly respect Miami because of how Miami matched up against them during their heyday. Independence for the Domers is for the same reason Michigan or Penn State wouldn't play a Big East football schedule: if they win they'd say that the football is too weak; and if they lose they'd say that the weak conference was dragging them down. They always have a reason to avoid playing certain Northeastern programs.

- (Historical) ACC arrogance stems from their fear of the Northeastern basketball programs dominating the sport. UCLA had an incredible run of dominance but they are on the West Coast. Kansas is also an incredible program but they were in the Big 8 and then the Big 12. The Big Ten was almost exclusively a Great Lakes conference. However, the emergence of the eastern independents who started the old Big East really put the conversation nationally, primarily through its partnership with ESPN. The ACC couldn't let that stand, so they haphazardly started the process of demoting their nearby competition. But, as you might've guessed, they never truly respected the Northeastern programs but had to begrudgingly bring along a few of them to make the plan work.

- It was a matter of time before there would be a clash between football arrogance and basketball arrogance, as much as both sides might've tried to paper over their differences. The ACC core might have believed that the Domers' own academic elitism would make them a natural partner for the core group - they may not have believed the Domers would drop their stance on football independence - so they were willing to look the other way on the lack of Domers on their schedule. However, they miscalculated how dramatically the power shifted to football. After Penn State slipped from their hands they had to scramble to get as many emerging football programs as they could, with varying levels of success. With that said, the core of the ACC (as I like to call it, the ACC part of the ACC) is deeply elitist and wedded to basketball. It's actually the other full ACC programs that have pushed the entire conference to shift its focus to football, much to the chagrin of Core ACC.

I am not going to predict what will happen next because there are other factors that could stabilize things. People thought the Big 12 would implode after OUT but they've amazingly stabilized. Conferences don't really die - they just switch out members. It's a constant in college sports.

(02-14-2022 10:57 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 02:21 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. Notre Dame did not cause the Big East to collapse and won't be the cause of an ACC collapse. But Notre Dame does suffer from being the Flying Dutchman of College Football. They get sweetheart deals for sports other than football from conferences with inherent weaknesses which ND's other sports don't help and which ND football only enhances marginally. The result is it delays the demise of their host but doesn't prevent it. Therefore, they board less seaworthy vessels which then sink, and ND gets a bad rep about it.

2. What you say about the state of ACC sports product is true and NIL will only make it worse, but not because the ACC is incapable of solid NIL interest, but because athletes connect success with NIL likelihood and exposure and will seek higher profile programs because of it. So instead of leveling the competition for talent it actually tilts it more. This will make producing better product less and less likely.

3. It is this acceleration of gap which will propel us toward larger conferences and more consolidation as brands race for these groups like those on the deck of the Titanic raced for un-lowered lifeboats. The SEC and B1G 10 don't have do anything right at this moment, they only have to look strong. When they do something right is magnified by perceived threat everywhere else.

Really nailed it with those three points.

Notre Dame won't have too much of a problem hammering out a football schedule as long as the ACC as we know it remains intact.

But, again, what happens if say Clemson and/or FSU jump on an opportunity to join the SEC? And then UNC, UVA and Duke begin to look toward the B1G? And the expanded SEC and expanded B1G both play 9-game conference schedules, leaving no room for (or interest in) mid- and late-season games against an opponent with the stature of the Irish?

Does Notre Dame stay put and make the best of a scheduling alliance with a dwindling number of marquee football programs in a (likely) back-filled ACC? Would the school's administration and fan base be content with a schedule filled with games against the likes of Pitt and Boston College and Syracuse to go with annual matchups with USC, Navy and Stanford?

I ask because I don't know Notre Dame's "mindset" well enough to say.

And how might a "less glamorous" home schedule impact an upcoming TV renewal or deal, dollars-wise?

ND's seven-game home schedule next season consists of Marshall, Cal, Stanford, UNLV, Syracuse, Clemson and BC. Some years will, on paper, look better and some may not. Regardless, how much money will a media partner be willing to shell out strictly for rights to 7 home football games against a schedule like that?

Notre Dame might not belong to football conference, but I think Irish football may end up being affected by realignment just about as much as anyone when it's all said and done.

When it comes to ND and the ACC, a lot of things are dressed up as self-interest:

- Domer version of "self-interest" is that while they historically looked to playing programs in the Northeast they actually look down on Northeastern programs, with the noted exception of Pitt and maybe Boston College. Former Big East programs like Syracuse, Rutgers, Connecticut, Temple and West Virginia can tell you stories about how the Domers really think of them as programs and fanbases. Domer arrogance is as long as their history. As much as been written about the bad blood between ND and certain Big Ten programs, the other side of that coin is the bad blood generated by how the Domers behaved as a quasi member of the Big East. They begrudgingly respect Miami because of how Miami matched up against them during their heyday. Independence for the Domers is for the same reason Michigan or Penn State wouldn't play a Big East football schedule: if they win they'd say that the football is too weak; and if they lose they'd say that the weak conference was dragging them down. They always have a reason to avoid playing certain Northeastern programs.

- (Historical) ACC arrogance stems from their fear of the Northeastern basketball programs dominating the sport. UCLA had an incredible run of dominance but they are on the West Coast. Kansas is also an incredible program but they were in the Big 8 and then the Big 12. The Big Ten was almost exclusively a Great Lakes conference. However, the emergence of the eastern independents who started the old Big East really put the conversation nationally, primarily through its partnership with ESPN. The ACC couldn't let that stand, so they haphazardly started the process of demoting their nearby competition. But, as you might've guessed, they never truly respected the Northeastern programs but had to begrudgingly bring along a few of them to make the plan work.

- It was a matter of time before there would be a clash between football arrogance and basketball arrogance, as much as both sides might've tried to paper over their differences. The ACC core might have believed that the Domers' own academic elitism would make them a natural partner for the core group - they may not have believed the Domers would drop their stance on football independence - so they were willing to look the other way on the lack of Domers on their schedule. However, they miscalculated how dramatically the power shifted to football. After Penn State slipped from their hands they had to scramble to get as many emerging football programs as they could, with varying levels of success. With that said, the core of the ACC (as I like to call it, the ACC part of the ACC) is deeply elitist and wedded to basketball. It's actually the other full ACC programs that have pushed the entire conference to shift its focus to football, much to the chagrin of Core ACC.

I am not going to predict what will happen next because there are other factors that could stabilize things. People thought the Big 12 would implode after OUT but they've amazingly stabilized. Conferences don't really die - they just switch out members. It's a constant in college sports.

Is it possible that Mack Brown got UNC to look at football differently now (second tour of duty) than from his first tour of duty with UNC???

(02-14-2022 11:14 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 10:57 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 02:21 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 01:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  1. Notre Dame did not cause the Big East to collapse and won't be the cause of an ACC collapse. But Notre Dame does suffer from being the Flying Dutchman of College Football. They get sweetheart deals for sports other than football from conferences with inherent weaknesses which ND's other sports don't help and which ND football only enhances marginally. The result is it delays the demise of their host but doesn't prevent it. Therefore, they board less seaworthy vessels which then sink, and ND gets a bad rep about it.

2. What you say about the state of ACC sports product is true and NIL will only make it worse, but not because the ACC is incapable of solid NIL interest, but because athletes connect success with NIL likelihood and exposure and will seek higher profile programs because of it. So instead of leveling the competition for talent it actually tilts it more. This will make producing better product less and less likely.

3. It is this acceleration of gap which will propel us toward larger conferences and more consolidation as brands race for these groups like those on the deck of the Titanic raced for un-lowered lifeboats. The SEC and B1G 10 don't have do anything right at this moment, they only have to look strong. When they do something right is magnified by perceived threat everywhere else.

Really nailed it with those three points.

Notre Dame won't have too much of a problem hammering out a football schedule as long as the ACC as we know it remains intact.

But, again, what happens if say Clemson and/or FSU jump on an opportunity to join the SEC? And then UNC, UVA and Duke begin to look toward the B1G? And the expanded SEC and expanded B1G both play 9-game conference schedules, leaving no room for (or interest in) mid- and late-season games against an opponent with the stature of the Irish?

Does Notre Dame stay put and make the best of a scheduling alliance with a dwindling number of marquee football programs in a (likely) back-filled ACC? Would the school's administration and fan base be content with a schedule filled with games against the likes of Pitt and Boston College and Syracuse to go with annual matchups with USC, Navy and Stanford?

I ask because I don't know Notre Dame's "mindset" well enough to say.

And how might a "less glamorous" home schedule impact an upcoming TV renewal or deal, dollars-wise?

ND's seven-game home schedule next season consists of Marshall, Cal, Stanford, UNLV, Syracuse, Clemson and BC. Some years will, on paper, look better and some may not. Regardless, how much money will a media partner be willing to shell out strictly for rights to 7 home football games against a schedule like that?

Notre Dame might not belong to football conference, but I think Irish football may end up being affected by realignment just about as much as anyone when it's all said and done.

When it comes to ND and the ACC, a lot of things are dressed up as self-interest:

- Domer version of "self-interest" is that while they historically looked to playing programs in the Northeast they actually look down on Northeastern programs, with the noted exception of Pitt and maybe Boston College. Former Big East programs like Syracuse, Rutgers, Connecticut, Temple and West Virginia can tell you stories about how the Domers really think of them as programs and fanbases. Domer arrogance is as long as their history. As much as been written about the bad blood between ND and certain Big Ten programs, the other side of that coin is the bad blood generated by how the Domers behaved as a quasi member of the Big East. They begrudgingly respect Miami because of how Miami matched up against them during their heyday. Independence for the Domers is for the same reason Michigan or Penn State wouldn't play a Big East football schedule: if they win they'd say that the football is too weak; and if they lose they'd say that the weak conference was dragging them down. They always have a reason to avoid playing certain Northeastern programs.

- (Historical) ACC arrogance stems from their fear of the Northeastern basketball programs dominating the sport. UCLA had an incredible run of dominance but they are on the West Coast. Kansas is also an incredible program but they were in the Big 8 and then the Big 12. The Big Ten was almost exclusively a Great Lakes conference. However, the emergence of the eastern independents who started the old Big East really put the conversation nationally, primarily through its partnership with ESPN. The ACC couldn't let that stand, so they haphazardly started the process of demoting their nearby competition. But, as you might've guessed, they never truly respected the Northeastern programs but had to begrudgingly bring along a few of them to make the plan work.

- It was a matter of time before there would be a clash between football arrogance and basketball arrogance, as much as both sides might've tried to paper over their differences. The ACC core might have believed that the Domers' own academic elitism would make them a natural partner for the core group - they may not have believed the Domers would drop their stance on football independence - so they were willing to look the other way on the lack of Domers on their schedule. However, they miscalculated how dramatically the power shifted to football. After Penn State slipped from their hands they had to scramble to get as many emerging football programs as they could, with varying levels of success. With that said, the core of the ACC (as I like to call it, the ACC part of the ACC) is deeply elitist and wedded to basketball. It's actually the other full ACC programs that have pushed the entire conference to shift its focus to football, much to the chagrin of Core ACC.

I am not going to predict what will happen next because there are other factors that could stabilize things. People thought the Big 12 would implode after OUT but they've amazingly stabilized. Conferences don't really die - they just switch out members. It's a constant in college sports.

Is it possible that Mack Brown got UNC to look at football differently now (second tour of duty) than from his first tour of duty with UNC???

I don't know. They're trying to recruit better but the results aren't panning out so far. From a neutral standpoint UNC could use a divisionless format but they've got commitments to play UVa, Duke and NC State. Just those three take a big chunk of their schedule. I'd like to see more regular match-ups between them and Syracuse, as those types of games are very winnable for them.

(02-15-2022 01:52 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 11:14 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Is it possible that Mack Brown got UNC to look at football differently now (second tour of duty) than from his first tour of duty with UNC???

I don't know. They're trying to recruit better but the results aren't panning out so far. From a neutral standpoint UNC could use a divisionless format but they've got commitments to play UVa, Duke and NC State. Just those three take a big chunk of their schedule. I'd like to see more regular match-ups between them and Syracuse, as those types of games are very winnable for them.

If only UNC could play in a conference with teams like Appalachian State, James Madison, Old Dominion, and Coastal Carolina - that would be the perfect conference for Tar Heels football!

Notre Dame are very predictable. The issue is that conferences don't like what they are hearing. I would say that the relationship is stable but also uncomfortable.

(02-15-2022 09:48 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-15-2022 01:52 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(02-14-2022 11:14 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Is it possible that Mack Brown got UNC to look at football differently now (second tour of duty) than from his first tour of duty with UNC???

I don't know. They're trying to recruit better but the results aren't panning out so far. From a neutral standpoint UNC could use a divisionless format but they've got commitments to play UVa, Duke and NC State. Just those three take a big chunk of their schedule. I'd like to see more regular match-ups between them and Syracuse, as those types of games are very winnable for them.

If only UNC could play in a conference with teams like Appalachian State, James Madison, Old Dominion, and Coastal Carolina - that would be the perfect conference for Tar Heels football!

Well, they have to play somebody if they want to continue having a Division 1 football program.

Given how true to its word Notre Dame has been over decades, schools should trust them. But because they expect the Irish to be as untrustworthy as they themselves are, and as most other schools they associate with are, they don't.

(02-15-2022 02:05 PM)ken d Wrote:  Given how true to its word Notre Dame has been over decades, schools should trust them. But because they expect the Irish to be as untrustworthy as they themselves are, and as most other schools they associate with are, they don't.

This is actually spot on.