when anti-racism demands racism

"It’s worth thinking about the thought process underlying this “affinity” grouping: The only safe space for discussing one’s views is a place with others of the same race. That leads to an ironic outcome. People who want to discuss ways to eliminate the vestiges of racial discrimination must first be racially segregated. In Montgomery County, for example, Black parents met on a Monday, white parents on a Tuesday, and Asian parents on a Wednesday. Parents who identified as Hispanic, Native American, and Middle Eastern were similarly separated and given a time slot for just their group. "

Many times I have noted that that a lot of practices and policies, e. g. Affirmative Action and reparations, boil down to fighting racism with more racism. This article seems to point out the same thing.

They belong in separate threads. But equal amount of heading.

Reading the piece, I was amused that the performance of Macbeth could easily be characterized as 'separate but equal' --- not just in a literal sense but in the philosophical sense that Plessy v. Ferguson is so kindly remembered for.

I am often amazed/amused that the same tactics and most of the same arguments used by racist Democrats (the original party was racist) to keep the races seperate are now being used by that same party to 'solve' the problem.

I THINK the reason is that integration fosters an intentional blending of the races and cultures... where people of all races enjoy things that were something that a specific culture brought to the table... whereas segregation fosters more of a solidification of the racial or cultural identities.... keeping us seperate.... ensuring a differentiation of the cultures. This plays right in to the 'identity politics' of the party as well as the plans/goals/desires/talking points of racists... which of course ALSO serves their party goals... as they can paint anyone who disagrees with/doesn't vote for them as a racist... even it seems MLK himself...

I have a dream that one day down in Alabama ... little Black boys and Black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.... but not to watch MacBeth, where they will be in different theatres and where their parents will meet on seperate days.

And when the child asks... WHY mommy, can't I go see the show with my best friend... Mommy will say, because she's different and we aren't safe to watch Shakespeare around her!

One can’t help but ask: when will the country at last cry “Hold, enough!”?

It used to be that it was the segregationists who instituted the "one drop rule" - that if you had one drop of negro blood, you were classified as a black. Now it is the other side.

(10-18-2022 10:36 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  It used to be that it was the segregationists who instituted the "one drop rule" - that if you had one drop of negro blood, you were classified as a black. Now it is the other side.

My point was that it is mostly the SAME side... Democrats. I don't mean the people on here or people who support most democratic policies... I mean the party. It just seems to point me towards the idea that its all (likely for both parties) nothing more than a means to an end. Racism in its traditional sense used to sell, and now a different version of it sells.... while also still attacking the old version of it.... and that its all about power and actually has nothing to do with ending racism.

(10-18-2022 10:36 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  It used to be that it was the segregationists who instituted the "one drop rule" - that if you had one drop of negro blood, you were classified as a black. Now it is the other side.

Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

(10-18-2022 10:46 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  . Racism in its traditional sense used to sell, and now a different version of it sells.... while also still attacking the old version of it.... and that its all about power and actually has nothing to do with ending racism.

I used to have hope that we could actually eventually evolve into a truly color blind society, much like we see on TV sci-fi shows. But now we are pushing ways of thinking and actions that more sharply delineate the races, not blur them.

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

Plenty of people have done this. It doesn't have to be 'here' or 'in this article' to know that it has taken place. I mean, some highly educated and articulate Presidents seem to think that you 'ain't' black if you don't vote for him.

That last line was an obvious dig at Biden... but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community. There have been movies and books about it. Same for many cultures.

(10-18-2022 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

Plenty of people have done this. It doesn't have to be 'here' or 'in this article' to know that it has taken place. I mean, some highly educated and articulate Presidents seem to think that you 'ain't' black if you don't vote for him.

That last line was an obvious dig at Biden... but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community. There have been movies and books about it. Same for many cultures.

Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

*edit* I would think that the level of wokeness these days would lead to accepting people as black if they identify as such as opposed to a growing surge of "you aren't really black.".

"In Montgomery County, for example, Black parents met on a Monday, white parents on a Tuesday, and Asian parents on a Wednesday. Parents who identified as Hispanic, Native American, and Middle Eastern were similarly separated and given a time slot for just their group."

If I were a parent, I don't know which meeting(s) I would be welcome at. Technically, I could choose from three of them -white, hispanic, Native - or attend all three. Or maybe be excluded from all three and every other meeting. I just wonder what documents or other proof I would need to get in.

America is known as melting pot. These policies are as divisive as any Jim Crow law or No Irish need apply sign.

(10-18-2022 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  "In Montgomery County, for example, Black parents met on a Monday, white parents on a Tuesday, and Asian parents on a Wednesday. Parents who identified as Hispanic, Native American, and Middle Eastern were similarly separated and given a time slot for just their group."

If I were a parent, I don't know which meeting(s) I would be welcome at. Technically, I could choose from three of them -white, hispanic, Native - or attend all three. Or maybe be excluded from all three and every other meeting. I just wonder what documents or other proof I would need to get in.

America is known as melting pot. These policies are as divisive as any Jim Crow law or No Irish need apply sign.

I guess I could see the reasoning behind offering multiple different "affinity groups" when the point id hearing the concerns of various communities. That way one could be more sure that every group has its voice heard (while recognizing that pigeon-holing individuals inyp these groups would not be perfect). I would assume that follow-up meetings to discuss the plan moving forward would not be segregated in this manner (nor would any future meetings other than for this reason).

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Precisely

Quote:Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

who said anything about R and D? OO spoke of the segregationists, and now 'the other side'.
Your comment could similarly be construed as it used to be white people saying 'one drop of non-white blood is too much' but now it is also by your own admission, minority communities that are seeking to remain pure.

As to the 'evidence that this is a growing phenomenon', I really don't think anyone had made that claim... but more... that claim is important enough to go to that kind of effort. I've certainly heard more about it in recent years than I recall hearing about it in the past. There are two movies... 2020 and 2017 about it.... with none that I see about it before then.

Quote:*edit* I would think that the level of wokeness these days would lead to accepting people as black if they identify as such as opposed to a growing surge of "you aren't really black.".

This is perhaps what makes it seem more obvious.... even if it isn't ACTUALLY happening more.

More though, I'd think that 'wokeness' would be more prevalent in the broader community... certainly I suspect more common in whites, but could also be minorities... whereas it would only generally be minorities seeking to keep their ethnicity. What I mean by that is that Native Americans might feel this way... Asians might feel this way... Jews might feel this way... blacks might feel this way... but they are all minorities... and they wouldn't really care that much if other minorities felt the same way... whereas whites are still the plurality of not majority... and they would be racists if they felt this way. I don't know if that is clear what I mean.

(10-18-2022 03:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Precisely

Quote:Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

who said anything about R and D? OO spoke of the segregationists, and now 'the other side'.
Your comment could similarly be construed as it used to be white people saying 'one drop of non-white blood is too much' but now it is also by your own admission, minority communities that are seeking to remain pure.

By my own admission? That's what I thought OO was saying... I'm pretty sure this wasn't some subconscious admission! I didn't think that OO was suggesting the "the other side" (I guess Dems?) believed that any % of non-white ancestry meant you aren't white but given we are on the Quad I guess anything is possible.

Quote:As to the 'evidence that this is a growing phenomenon', I really don't think anyone had made that claim... but more... that claim is important enough to go to that kind of effort. I've certainly heard more about it in recent years than I recall hearing about it in the past. There are two movies... 2020 and 2017 about it.... with none that I see about it before then.

This is your actual quote:

" but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community."

What movies are you referencing?

And you are correct... nobody made this specific issue an Rs vs. Ds argument. I guess I read into it as multiple people in this conversation have applied the racism label to Democrats but not specific to the "you aren't black" discussion.

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

Plenty of people have done this. It doesn't have to be 'here' or 'in this article' to know that it has taken place. I mean, some highly educated and articulate Presidents seem to think that you 'ain't' black if you don't vote for him.

That last line was an obvious dig at Biden... but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community. There have been movies and books about it. Same for many cultures.

Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

*edit* I would think that the level of wokeness these days would lead to accepting people as black if they identify as such as opposed to a growing surge of "you aren't really black.".

Well, didn't a recent Presidential candidate (I forget which party) make it a campaign point?

(10-18-2022 05:17 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

Plenty of people have done this. It doesn't have to be 'here' or 'in this article' to know that it has taken place. I mean, some highly educated and articulate Presidents seem to think that you 'ain't' black if you don't vote for him.

That last line was an obvious dig at Biden... but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community. There have been movies and books about it. Same for many cultures.

Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

*edit* I would think that the level of wokeness these days would lead to accepting people as black if they identify as such as opposed to a growing surge of "you aren't really black.".

Well, didn't a recent Presidential candidate (I forget which party) make it a campaign point?

Yep. Ham brought that up a couple posts ago! Let's agree that nothing that comes out of Biden's mouth captures the zeitgeist of the average American!

(10-18-2022 05:38 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 05:17 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Huh? Where is OO getting this? Who is advocating that you are not truly black if you have any level of mixed race? Was this in the Shakespeare article???

Plenty of people have done this. It doesn't have to be 'here' or 'in this article' to know that it has taken place. I mean, some highly educated and articulate Presidents seem to think that you 'ain't' black if you don't vote for him.

That last line was an obvious dig at Biden... but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community. There have been movies and books about it. Same for many cultures.

Sure... I've heard "not black enough" for decades. In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Where is the evidence that this is a growing phenomenon in 2022 and specifically where is the evidence that this is now "a thing" among Democrats specifically? How did this become a R vs. D issue???

*edit* I would think that the level of wokeness these days would lead to accepting people as black if they identify as such as opposed to a growing surge of "you aren't really black.".

Well, didn't a recent Presidential candidate (I forget which party) make it a campaign point?

Yep. Ham brought that up a couple posts ago! Let's agree that nothing that comes out of Biden's mouth captures the zeitgeist of the average American!

Too funny!

(10-18-2022 05:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 03:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Your comment could similarly be construed as it used to be white people saying 'one drop of non-white blood is too much' but now it is also by your own admission, minority communities that are seeking to remain pure.

By my own admission? That's what I thought OO was saying... I'm pretty sure this wasn't some subconscious admission!

I have edited the above to demonstrate what I meant. You seem to be saying that you've heard it from the black community as well.

Quote: I didn't think that OO was suggesting the "the other side" (I guess Dems?) believed that any % of non-white ancestry meant you aren't white but given we are on the Quad I guess anything is possible.

Well, he said 'segregationists' and then 'the other side'.... so that's how I saw it. Amusingly to me, Dems would probably have been the segregationists back then.

Quote:

Quote:As to the 'evidence that this is a growing phenomenon', I really don't think anyone had made that claim... but more... that claim is important enough to go to that kind of effort. I've certainly heard more about it in recent years than I recall hearing about it in the past. There are two movies... 2020 and 2017 about it.... with none that I see about it before then.

This is your actual quote:

" but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community."

Poor wording on my part... what I meant was... it wasn't some huge claim of fact and merely an anecdotal observation of mine.... my personal impression...

Quote:What movies are you referencing?

Not Black Enough
Two movies with the same title.... one a short... 2017 and 2020

I'm sure there are many others... but I doubt those films get made in the 1990's. In addition to reshoots/reimaginations of older stories (even like Hamilton) with more diverse casts (which I see as a GREAT thing, so long as it doesn't become the story itself) ... we have sections of Netflix and the like dedicated to 'black stories'. Although I watch those that (because of the story) interest me, not caring what section they are in... I am sure that some others think either that they won't be interested/connect with those stories... and even more who think that its a GOOD thing.

I don't really know how I feel about it in terms of effectiveness. I think that it can be used for good OR for harm.

(10-18-2022 05:38 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 05:17 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 10:51 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  How did this become a R vs. D issue???

Well, didn't a recent Presidential candidate (I forget which party) make it a campaign point?

Yep. Ham brought that up a couple posts ago! Let's agree that nothing that comes out of Biden's mouth captures the zeitgeist of the average American!

Yeah... I was just trying to dig at Biden for that as I said... and not trying to make it RvD myself.

(10-19-2022 09:45 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 05:03 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 03:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-18-2022 11:16 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  In my experience it was from within the black community but certainly there were white kids who told my best friend that he wasn't "really black".

Your comment could similarly be construed as it used to be white people saying 'one drop of non-white blood is too much' but now it is also by your own admission, minority communities that are seeking to remain pure.

By my own admission? That's what I thought OO was saying... I'm pretty sure this wasn't some subconscious admission!

I have edited the above to demonstrate what I meant. You seem to be saying that you've heard it from the black community as well.

Quote: I didn't think that OO was suggesting the "the other side" (I guess Dems?) believed that any % of non-white ancestry meant you aren't white but given we are on the Quad I guess anything is possible.

Well, he said 'segregationists' and then 'the other side'.... so that's how I saw it. Amusingly to me, Dems would probably have been the segregationists back then.

Quote:

Quote:As to the 'evidence that this is a growing phenomenon', I really don't think anyone had made that claim... but more... that claim is important enough to go to that kind of effort. I've certainly heard more about it in recent years than I recall hearing about it in the past. There are two movies... 2020 and 2017 about it.... with none that I see about it before then.

This is your actual quote:

" but 'not black enough' is a growing meme within sectors of the black community."

Poor wording on my part... what I meant was... it wasn't some huge claim of fact and merely an anecdotal observation of mine.... my personal impression...

Quote:What movies are you referencing?

Not Black Enough
Two movies with the same title.... one a short... 2017 and 2020

I'm sure there are many others... but I doubt those films get made in the 1990's. In addition to reshoots/reimaginations of older stories (even like Hamilton) with more diverse casts (which I see as a GREAT thing, so long as it doesn't become the story itself) ... we have sections of Netflix and the like dedicated to 'black stories'. Although I watch those that (because of the story) interest me, not caring what section they are in... I am sure that some others think either that they won't be interested/connect with those stories... and even more who think that its a GOOD thing.

I remember all sorts of references to "not black enough"/"not really black" in films/TV back in the day.

Look at "Do the Right Thing" which was from 1989. There was all sorts of talk about who was "really black" in that movie. And that was much more popular than the movies that you reference. I mean... Chuck D rapped over the opening credits "Radio stations I question your blackness, you call yourself black but we'll see if you play this."!

(10-19-2022 10:01 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I remember all sorts of references to "not black enough"/"not really black" in films/TV back in the day.

Look at "Do the Right Thing" which was from 1989. There was all sorts of talk about who was "really black" in that movie. And that was much more popular than the movies that you reference. I mean... Chuck D rapped over the opening credits "Radio stations I question your blackness, you call yourself black but we'll see if you play this."!

IMO, That was more about attitude and culture than about 'pure blood'.... that was the beginning of it... and it is 'more' now.... again... my opinion and observation... and I doubt your experience will change what I see...

The movies talk about it on the two levels... one is 'attitude' meaning (said simply) how you dress or speak or what music you listen to... which is what i think you're referring to... and the other is about 'not mixing races'.

In the best example, a radio station can't be a race.

I don't mean 'more' in terms of a majority or anything... I simply mean more in terms of 'not dating outside your race' was something I only ever heard from racists 'in the day'..,. and now I'm hearing it 'more' from minorities.