(12-15-2022 07:25 PM)AzonTheKid Wrote:  I'm expecting full on chaos with the new NCAA NLRB case.

Potential full breakdown and dismantling of the NCAA. Potential consolidation of the best properties between the B1G and SEC to have the highest tier of college football that pays players the most and then a middle class of the cast outs and higher end programs from the Pac-10, Big 12 and ACC.

This won't necessarily be successful.

Although I think eventually it will be.

(12-19-2022 09:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 05:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 12:03 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-18-2022 08:08 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 07:02 PM)BeepBeepJeep Wrote:  Sweet, thanks.

1. Gotcha, I didn't get the part about closed systems on my first read.

2. Makes sense.

3. I'd love to know more about this. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the ACC schools would vote out Duke, UNC, and UVA. Seems wild though. Also, this sounds like how now people are saying that USC was impossible to deal with in the Pac12 and that Texas was impossible in the SWC/BigXII. I've heard the same about Michigan and a little bit about OSU in the B1G. I've never heard any real internal strife in the SEC.

4. I kind of think Syracuse missed their chance, as in the 90s I could kind of squint and think about PSU and Syracuse in the B1G, but seems like a super odd fit now. I'd think the B1G would prefer GT, Buffalo, or Pitt, and I don't really think any of those three are happening. Duke has always seemed like ACC Northwestern (except good at sports). I haven't heard any interest from the B1G about Utah, just my 2 cents that I think Utah makes more sense than Kansas or ISU.

5. Would love to see 10 conference games and 2 OOC games. Remove the rule about number of wins to play a bowl game and I think it would get passed.

Vote Carolina, Duke and UVa out of the ACC and right into the B1G with Notre Dame
?

Fixed. Notre Dame has not, is not, and will not be interested in the B1G.

What ever you say, at one time the Notre Dame faculty and a large portion of their fan base wanted to join the B1G, perhaps they have all changed their minds, so to your point let's eliminate the Irish.
Even without going to he west coast, I imagine there would be several schools that could/would move to the B1G with Carolina, UVa and Duke (Kansas, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, Florida State).
Or, it's entirely possible that the trio may end up in the SEC instead.
It just doesn't seem prudent to vote schools out of a league when they have alternative landing spots.

1) A faculty vote in 1999 was worthless and meaningless then and is even more so now.

When and where is/was a faculty vote on conference realignment a meaningful thing?

"In October, the school's Faculty Senate voted 25-4 in favor of joining the CIC, but no mention of the Big Ten was made."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/

2) Can you provide any objective data to support your assertion that "a large portion" of the ND fan base wanted to join the Big Ten in 1999 (I presume) ??


(What really happened in 1999 was that the Board of Trustees publicly voted by a very large margin to turn down a Big Ten invitation after the fans, alumni and donors erupted in a huge firestorm totally against the idea of ND joining the Big Ten. The overwhelming opinion of those folks violently opposed the idea completely. It wasn't even close, more like Nixon v. McGovern)

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html

"Students have taken to chanting "No Big Ten" at basketball games, and Charles Lennon, director of the school's alumni association, estimated 99.5 percent of his members were against changing the school's unique "brand name" as an independent university."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/


(Nice try at revisionist history, Lance, but no sale...the facts were very different)


This is what the then sitting president of Notre Dame said about the rejection of the Big Ten offer:


" “Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics–Catholic, private, independent,” he said.

As a Big Ten and CIC member, Father Malloy pointed out, “Notre Dame would be one of only two private universities . . . and the only university with a religious affiliation.” Notre Dame also, he said, would be by far the smallest of the affiliated institutions.

The Catholic character of Notre Dame, Father Malloy said, ” . . . gives a unique perspective to our educational mission and permeates our campus culture. Our most basic decisions concerning student life, our faculty, our core curriculum, even the fields of scholarship and research in which we aspire to make a significant contribution, all reflect the fact that we are a Catholic university.

“These differences in identity between Notre Dame and the member institutions of the Big Ten are essential, not incidental,” Father Malloy said. “They are not qualities that are amenable to change, nor would we change them. Notre Dame always will be Catholic and always will be private. Even in terms of size, we will not become appreciably larger. Given these realities, we have had to ask ourselves the fundamental question, does this core identity of Notre Dame as Catholic, private, and independent seem a match for an association of universities–even a splendid association of great universities–that are uniformly secular, predominantly state institutions and with a long heritage of conference affiliation.

“Our answer to that question, in the final analysis, is no.”

https://und.com/notre-dame-to-remain-independent/


"Catholic, private and independent"......

That is ND's brand and its identity, even its self-identity. That has been the case since it began playing football in 1887 and is the case today.


"Delany said Notre Dame would not be considered again, and that was fine with Lennon of its alumni association.

Before the board's decision was announced, he said: ''Our brand name is something special. We'd rather be one of one than one of 12.''


https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html



That is the overwhelming sentiment at ND, even today:

"As conference realignment shakes college football to its core, the proverbial elephant in the room is what one of the sport’s preeminent programs will do next: independent Notre Dame.

Located in the heart of Big Ten country, it’s logical to view the Irish as a potential fit for the conference should it continue to eye expansion following the acquisition of USC and UCLA from the Pac-12. But if Notre Dame has its way, it won’t be following suit anytime soon.

A source with knowledge of the school’s plans told Sports Illustrated‘s Pat Forde that the Irish’s priority is to remain independent in football.


https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/04/no...nt-big-ten

You should start a thread with this post, so that it can be pinned - "Notre Dame football won't be joining any conference."

Brand exclusivity matters. I think the Big Ten takes another swipe at ND in a few years but is rejected once again. I think 18 is the upper limit of expansion, once the ACC Gor is reaching completion the Big Ten will offer Georgia Tech and FSU. The SEC will take UNC and Virginia

(12-19-2022 11:37 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 09:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 05:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 12:03 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-18-2022 08:08 PM)XLance Wrote:  Vote Carolina, Duke and UVa out of the ACC and right into the B1G with Notre Dame
?

Fixed. Notre Dame has not, is not, and will not be interested in the B1G.

What ever you say, at one time the Notre Dame faculty and a large portion of their fan base wanted to join the B1G, perhaps they have all changed their minds, so to your point let's eliminate the Irish.
Even without going to he west coast, I imagine there would be several schools that could/would move to the B1G with Carolina, UVa and Duke (Kansas, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, Florida State).
Or, it's entirely possible that the trio may end up in the SEC instead.
It just doesn't seem prudent to vote schools out of a league when they have alternative landing spots.

1) A faculty vote in 1999 was worthless and meaningless then and is even more so now.

When and where is/was a faculty vote on conference realignment a meaningful thing?

"In October, the school's Faculty Senate voted 25-4 in favor of joining the CIC, but no mention of the Big Ten was made."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/

2) Can you provide any objective data to support your assertion that "a large portion" of the ND fan base wanted to join the Big Ten in 1999 (I presume) ??


(What really happened in 1999 was that the Board of Trustees publicly voted by a very large margin to turn down a Big Ten invitation after the fans, alumni and donors erupted in a huge firestorm totally against the idea of ND joining the Big Ten. The overwhelming opinion of those folks violently opposed the idea completely. It wasn't even close, more like Nixon v. McGovern)

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html

"Students have taken to chanting "No Big Ten" at basketball games, and Charles Lennon, director of the school's alumni association, estimated 99.5 percent of his members were against changing the school's unique "brand name" as an independent university."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/


(Nice try at revisionist history, Lance, but no sale...the facts were very different)


This is what the then sitting president of Notre Dame said about the rejection of the Big Ten offer:


" “Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics–Catholic, private, independent,” he said.

As a Big Ten and CIC member, Father Malloy pointed out, “Notre Dame would be one of only two private universities . . . and the only university with a religious affiliation.” Notre Dame also, he said, would be by far the smallest of the affiliated institutions.

The Catholic character of Notre Dame, Father Malloy said, ” . . . gives a unique perspective to our educational mission and permeates our campus culture. Our most basic decisions concerning student life, our faculty, our core curriculum, even the fields of scholarship and research in which we aspire to make a significant contribution, all reflect the fact that we are a Catholic university.

“These differences in identity between Notre Dame and the member institutions of the Big Ten are essential, not incidental,” Father Malloy said. “They are not qualities that are amenable to change, nor would we change them. Notre Dame always will be Catholic and always will be private. Even in terms of size, we will not become appreciably larger. Given these realities, we have had to ask ourselves the fundamental question, does this core identity of Notre Dame as Catholic, private, and independent seem a match for an association of universities–even a splendid association of great universities–that are uniformly secular, predominantly state institutions and with a long heritage of conference affiliation.

“Our answer to that question, in the final analysis, is no.”

https://und.com/notre-dame-to-remain-independent/


"Catholic, private and independent"......

That is ND's brand and its identity, even its self-identity. That has been the case since it began playing football in 1887 and is the case today.


"Delany said Notre Dame would not be considered again, and that was fine with Lennon of its alumni association.

Before the board's decision was announced, he said: ''Our brand name is something special. We'd rather be one of one than one of 12.''


https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html



That is the overwhelming sentiment at ND, even today:

"As conference realignment shakes college football to its core, the proverbial elephant in the room is what one of the sport’s preeminent programs will do next: independent Notre Dame.

Located in the heart of Big Ten country, it’s logical to view the Irish as a potential fit for the conference should it continue to eye expansion following the acquisition of USC and UCLA from the Pac-12. But if Notre Dame has its way, it won’t be following suit anytime soon.

A source with knowledge of the school’s plans told Sports Illustrated‘s Pat Forde that the Irish’s priority is to remain independent in football.


https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/04/no...nt-big-ten

You should start a thread with this post, so that it can be pinned - "Notre Dame football won't be joining any conference."

Nah. Its just that I have seen a lot of misinformation/disinformation about ND on CR message boards over the years.

Since there are very few ND fans on non-ND message boards (or none), particularly realignment boards (they mostly pay no attention to them), I try to provide a factual counterpoint to this misinformation from time to time.

Being a retired lawyer, I usually provide citations (links) to back up my counterpoints.

This was one of those times. Lance was just making it up about ND fan support for Big Ten membership in 1999.

It was non-existent.

(12-20-2022 08:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 11:37 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 09:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 05:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 12:03 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Fixed. Notre Dame has not, is not, and will not be interested in the B1G.

What ever you say, at one time the Notre Dame faculty and a large portion of their fan base wanted to join the B1G, perhaps they have all changed their minds, so to your point let's eliminate the Irish.
Even without going to he west coast, I imagine there would be several schools that could/would move to the B1G with Carolina, UVa and Duke (Kansas, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, Florida State).
Or, it's entirely possible that the trio may end up in the SEC instead.
It just doesn't seem prudent to vote schools out of a league when they have alternative landing spots.

1) A faculty vote in 1999 was worthless and meaningless then and is even more so now.

When and where is/was a faculty vote on conference realignment a meaningful thing?

"In October, the school's Faculty Senate voted 25-4 in favor of joining the CIC, but no mention of the Big Ten was made."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/

2) Can you provide any objective data to support your assertion that "a large portion" of the ND fan base wanted to join the Big Ten in 1999 (I presume) ??


(What really happened in 1999 was that the Board of Trustees publicly voted by a very large margin to turn down a Big Ten invitation after the fans, alumni and donors erupted in a huge firestorm totally against the idea of ND joining the Big Ten. The overwhelming opinion of those folks violently opposed the idea completely. It wasn't even close, more like Nixon v. McGovern)

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html

"Students have taken to chanting "No Big Ten" at basketball games, and Charles Lennon, director of the school's alumni association, estimated 99.5 percent of his members were against changing the school's unique "brand name" as an independent university."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/


(Nice try at revisionist history, Lance, but no sale...the facts were very different)


This is what the then sitting president of Notre Dame said about the rejection of the Big Ten offer:


" “Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics–Catholic, private, independent,” he said.

As a Big Ten and CIC member, Father Malloy pointed out, “Notre Dame would be one of only two private universities . . . and the only university with a religious affiliation.” Notre Dame also, he said, would be by far the smallest of the affiliated institutions.

The Catholic character of Notre Dame, Father Malloy said, ” . . . gives a unique perspective to our educational mission and permeates our campus culture. Our most basic decisions concerning student life, our faculty, our core curriculum, even the fields of scholarship and research in which we aspire to make a significant contribution, all reflect the fact that we are a Catholic university.

“These differences in identity between Notre Dame and the member institutions of the Big Ten are essential, not incidental,” Father Malloy said. “They are not qualities that are amenable to change, nor would we change them. Notre Dame always will be Catholic and always will be private. Even in terms of size, we will not become appreciably larger. Given these realities, we have had to ask ourselves the fundamental question, does this core identity of Notre Dame as Catholic, private, and independent seem a match for an association of universities–even a splendid association of great universities–that are uniformly secular, predominantly state institutions and with a long heritage of conference affiliation.

“Our answer to that question, in the final analysis, is no.”

https://und.com/notre-dame-to-remain-independent/


"Catholic, private and independent"......

That is ND's brand and its identity, even its self-identity. That has been the case since it began playing football in 1887 and is the case today.


"Delany said Notre Dame would not be considered again, and that was fine with Lennon of its alumni association.

Before the board's decision was announced, he said: ''Our brand name is something special. We'd rather be one of one than one of 12.''


https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html



That is the overwhelming sentiment at ND, even today:

"As conference realignment shakes college football to its core, the proverbial elephant in the room is what one of the sport’s preeminent programs will do next: independent Notre Dame.

Located in the heart of Big Ten country, it’s logical to view the Irish as a potential fit for the conference should it continue to eye expansion following the acquisition of USC and UCLA from the Pac-12. But if Notre Dame has its way, it won’t be following suit anytime soon.

A source with knowledge of the school’s plans told Sports Illustrated‘s Pat Forde that the Irish’s priority is to remain independent in football.


https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/04/no...nt-big-ten

You should start a thread with this post, so that it can be pinned - "Notre Dame football won't be joining any conference."

Nah. Its just that I have seen a lot of misinformation/disinformation about ND on CR message boards over the years.

Since there are very few ND fans on non-ND message boards (or none), particularly realignment boards (they mostly pay no attention to them), I try to provide a factual counterpoint to this misinformation from time to time.

Being a retired lawyer, I usually provide citations (links) to back up my counterpoints.

This was one of those times. Lance was just making it up about ND fan support for Big Ten membership in 1999.

It was non-existent.

Not according to what I was reading on Rock's House at ND Nation.
A board, which at one time, you were a frequent poster. A board, however, that also questioned your cred because you were not a ND alum.

https://ndnation.com/boards/index.php?football

(12-20-2022 08:49 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-20-2022 08:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 11:37 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 09:34 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 05:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  What ever you say, at one time the Notre Dame faculty and a large portion of their fan base wanted to join the B1G, perhaps they have all changed their minds, so to your point let's eliminate the Irish.
Even without going to he west coast, I imagine there would be several schools that could/would move to the B1G with Carolina, UVa and Duke (Kansas, Georgia Tech, Syracuse, Florida State).
Or, it's entirely possible that the trio may end up in the SEC instead.
It just doesn't seem prudent to vote schools out of a league when they have alternative landing spots.

1) A faculty vote in 1999 was worthless and meaningless then and is even more so now.

When and where is/was a faculty vote on conference realignment a meaningful thing?

"In October, the school's Faculty Senate voted 25-4 in favor of joining the CIC, but no mention of the Big Ten was made."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/

2) Can you provide any objective data to support your assertion that "a large portion" of the ND fan base wanted to join the Big Ten in 1999 (I presume) ??


(What really happened in 1999 was that the Board of Trustees publicly voted by a very large margin to turn down a Big Ten invitation after the fans, alumni and donors erupted in a huge firestorm totally against the idea of ND joining the Big Ten. The overwhelming opinion of those folks violently opposed the idea completely. It wasn't even close, more like Nixon v. McGovern)

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html

"Students have taken to chanting "No Big Ten" at basketball games, and Charles Lennon, director of the school's alumni association, estimated 99.5 percent of his members were against changing the school's unique "brand name" as an independent university."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irish-rejec...g-big-ten/


(Nice try at revisionist history, Lance, but no sale...the facts were very different)


This is what the then sitting president of Notre Dame said about the rejection of the Big Ten offer:


" “Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics–Catholic, private, independent,” he said.

As a Big Ten and CIC member, Father Malloy pointed out, “Notre Dame would be one of only two private universities . . . and the only university with a religious affiliation.” Notre Dame also, he said, would be by far the smallest of the affiliated institutions.

The Catholic character of Notre Dame, Father Malloy said, ” . . . gives a unique perspective to our educational mission and permeates our campus culture. Our most basic decisions concerning student life, our faculty, our core curriculum, even the fields of scholarship and research in which we aspire to make a significant contribution, all reflect the fact that we are a Catholic university.

“These differences in identity between Notre Dame and the member institutions of the Big Ten are essential, not incidental,” Father Malloy said. “They are not qualities that are amenable to change, nor would we change them. Notre Dame always will be Catholic and always will be private. Even in terms of size, we will not become appreciably larger. Given these realities, we have had to ask ourselves the fundamental question, does this core identity of Notre Dame as Catholic, private, and independent seem a match for an association of universities–even a splendid association of great universities–that are uniformly secular, predominantly state institutions and with a long heritage of conference affiliation.

“Our answer to that question, in the final analysis, is no.”

https://und.com/notre-dame-to-remain-independent/


"Catholic, private and independent"......

That is ND's brand and its identity, even its self-identity. That has been the case since it began playing football in 1887 and is the case today.


"Delany said Notre Dame would not be considered again, and that was fine with Lennon of its alumni association.

Before the board's decision was announced, he said: ''Our brand name is something special. We'd rather be one of one than one of 12.''


https://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/06/sport...g-ten.html



That is the overwhelming sentiment at ND, even today:

"As conference realignment shakes college football to its core, the proverbial elephant in the room is what one of the sport’s preeminent programs will do next: independent Notre Dame.

Located in the heart of Big Ten country, it’s logical to view the Irish as a potential fit for the conference should it continue to eye expansion following the acquisition of USC and UCLA from the Pac-12. But if Notre Dame has its way, it won’t be following suit anytime soon.

A source with knowledge of the school’s plans told Sports Illustrated‘s Pat Forde that the Irish’s priority is to remain independent in football.


https://www.si.com/college/2022/07/04/no...nt-big-ten

You should start a thread with this post, so that it can be pinned - "Notre Dame football won't be joining any conference."

Nah. Its just that I have seen a lot of misinformation/disinformation about ND on CR message boards over the years.

Since there are very few ND fans on non-ND message boards (or none), particularly realignment boards (they mostly pay no attention to them), I try to provide a factual counterpoint to this misinformation from time to time.

Being a retired lawyer, I usually provide citations (links) to back up my counterpoints.

This was one of those times. Lance was just making it up about ND fan support for Big Ten membership in 1999.

It was non-existent.

Not according to what I was reading on Rock's House at ND Nation.
A board, which at one time, you were a frequent poster. A board, however, that also questioned your cred because you were not a ND alum.

Facts are facts, Lance. Your post was just completely false.

As a matter of fact: at that time ND Nation had it's own separate realignment board.

(12-20-2022 08:54 AM)XLance Wrote:  As a matter of fact: at that time ND Nation had it's own separate realignment board.

I have provided links and quotes.

You have provided...nothing.

Have a good day, Lance.

(12-19-2022 01:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 07:25 PM)AzonTheKid Wrote:  I'm expecting full on chaos with the new NCAA NLRB case.

Potential full breakdown and dismantling of the NCAA. Potential consolidation of the best properties between the B1G and SEC to have the highest tier of college football that pays players the most and then a middle class of the cast outs and higher end programs from the Pac-10, Big 12 and ACC.

This won't necessarily be successful.

Although I think eventually it will be.

Chaos has a way of making all existing rules irrelevant. We tend here to pick and choose which current rules we think will outlast other rules when we propose future conference alignments. But none of us knows for sure. What I think we can be sure of is that each and every individual school will ultimately act in what it perceives is its own best interest. Sometimes those interests will be compatible with those of their current conference. Other times they will be in conflict.

I don't expect any school to act altruistically if the poop hits the fan due to court rulings or congressional action. Nothing will surprise me with respect to conference alignment. One real possibility I could envision is the emergence of football only conferences, one of which is a national conference that establishes its own rules for competition and compensation, but which provides an opportunity for members to schedule teams from conferences that opt for a lesser commitment to funding football.

(12-24-2022 12:02 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 01:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 07:25 PM)AzonTheKid Wrote:  I'm expecting full on chaos with the new NCAA NLRB case.

Potential full breakdown and dismantling of the NCAA. Potential consolidation of the best properties between the B1G and SEC to have the highest tier of college football that pays players the most and then a middle class of the cast outs and higher end programs from the Pac-10, Big 12 and ACC.

This won't necessarily be successful.

Although I think eventually it will be.

Chaos has a way of making all existing rules irrelevant. We tend here to pick and choose which current rules we think will outlast other rules when we propose future conference alignments. But none of us knows for sure. What I think we can be sure of is that each and every individual school will ultimately act in what it perceives is its own best interest. Sometimes those interests will be compatible with those of their current conference. Other times they will be in conflict.

I don't expect any school to act altruistically if the poop hits the fan due to court rulings or congressional action. Nothing will surprise me with respect to conference alignment. One real possibility I could envision is the emergence of football only conferences, one of which is a national conference that establishes its own rules for competition and compensation, but which provides an opportunity for members to schedule teams from conferences that opt for a lesser commitment to funding football.

I don't see it. I can see one overarching league which agrees essentially to pursue a professional model. I can also see a variety of models which try to find a compromise position between amateurism and professionalism. I don't see the two competing directly. The former will claim to be above the others and will not schedule them. The latter will work with other similarly constituted associations until they can ameliorate and combine. Then we'll have 3 separate systems. An Ivy like system with true student athletes (or at least an approximation of that), the hybrid attempt (which may face further court challenges), and the professional model. The money in the professional model will be self-contained. The issue there is money, and that priority will be protected. They won't risk giving legitimacy to another model.

(12-24-2022 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-24-2022 12:02 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-19-2022 01:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 07:25 PM)AzonTheKid Wrote:  I'm expecting full on chaos with the new NCAA NLRB case.

Potential full breakdown and dismantling of the NCAA. Potential consolidation of the best properties between the B1G and SEC to have the highest tier of college football that pays players the most and then a middle class of the cast outs and higher end programs from the Pac-10, Big 12 and ACC.

This won't necessarily be successful.

Although I think eventually it will be.

Chaos has a way of making all existing rules irrelevant. We tend here to pick and choose which current rules we think will outlast other rules when we propose future conference alignments. But none of us knows for sure. What I think we can be sure of is that each and every individual school will ultimately act in what it perceives is its own best interest. Sometimes those interests will be compatible with those of their current conference. Other times they will be in conflict.

I don't expect any school to act altruistically if the poop hits the fan due to court rulings or congressional action. Nothing will surprise me with respect to conference alignment. One real possibility I could envision is the emergence of football only conferences, one of which is a national conference that establishes its own rules for competition and compensation, but which provides an opportunity for members to schedule teams from conferences that opt for a lesser commitment to funding football.

I don't see it. I can see one overarching league which agrees essentially to pursue a professional model. I can also see a variety of models which try to find a compromise position between amateurism and professionalism. I don't see the two competing directly. The former will claim to be above the others and will not schedule them. The latter will work with other similarly constituted associations until they can ameliorate and combine. Then we'll have 3 separate systems. An Ivy like system with true student athletes (or at least an approximation of that), the hybrid attempt (which may face further court challenges), and the professional model. The money in the professional model will be self-contained. The issue there is money, and that priority will be protected. They won't risk giving legitimacy to another model.

Eventually the hybrid model will fade away and what will be left is a professional model and an Ivy like model for football only.
Only the "big stadium" schools need apply for the professional model. I think you are looking at 24-36 teams (max). The professional model teams will continue to play a few rivalry games with Ivy model teams. The pro model teams because they will need wins and the Ivy model teams will do it for money.

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

Divide up the PAC 12 and ACC schools (plus a handful of Big 12 steals) with Right Wing (SEC) versus Left Wing (B1G) power conference structure:

B1G adds new Blue-State schools of UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Syracuse, Boston College, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, and Colorado. (consider to replace OSU and Wazzu with UNLV and Hawaii for new states and markets).

SEC adds new Red-State schools of West Virginia, Kansas, Utah and steals Nebraska from the B1G.

Each conference gets at least one team from the purple states:

B1G adds Miami, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, and Arizona.

SEC adds Pitt, Virginia Tech, NC State, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Arizona State and Notre Dame.

B1G (30 schools in 5x6 structure)
ATLANTIC: Penn State, Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, Maryland
EAST: Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue
NORTH: Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa
SOUTH: Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Miami
WEST: Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, Colorado
PACIFIC: USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Arizona

SEC (30 schools in 5x6 structure)
SOUTH: Auburn, Alabama, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, LSU
EAST: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky
ATLANTIC: Florida State, Clemson, NC State, Duke, Louisville
NORTH: Notre Dame, Pitt, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Vanderbilt
SOUTHWEST: Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas
WEST: Arizona State, Utah, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa State

(12-30-2022 02:56 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

Divide up the PAC 12 and ACC schools (plus a handful of Big 12 steals) with Right Wing (SEC) versus Left Wing (B1G) power conference structure:

B1G adds new Blue-State schools of UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Syracuse, Boston College, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, and Colorado. (consider to replace OSU and Wazzu with UNLV and Hawaii for new states and markets).

SEC adds new Red-State schools of West Virginia, Kansas, Utah and steals Nebraska from the B1G.

Each conference gets at least one team from the purple states:

B1G adds Miami, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, and Arizona.

SEC adds Pitt, Virginia Tech, NC State, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Arizona State and Notre Dame.

B1G (30 schools in 5x6 structure)
ATLANTIC: Penn State, Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, Maryland
EAST: Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue
NORTH: Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa
SOUTH: Virginia, Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Miami
WEST: Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, Colorado
PACIFIC: USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Arizona

SEC (30 schools in 5x6 structure)
SOUTH: Auburn, Alabama, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, LSU
EAST: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky
ATLANTIC: Florida State, Clemson, NC State, Duke, Louisville
NORTH: Notre Dame, Pitt, West Virginia, Cincinnati, Vanderbilt
SOUTHWEST: Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas
WEST: Arizona State, Utah, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa State

It's fun to dream, isn't it? : )

So let's see, you added Boston College to the B10, but not Wake Forest to the SEC? Probably not.

And non-AAU VT is more likely to the SEC than the B10. (Which you had in the text, but not in your list.)

And, thanks to Omaha's district 2 going purple, Nebraska isn't quite as much a red state.

But let's see if we can tweak your lists a bit but yet get you near the outcome you seem to be looking for...

First, removing BC, OSU, WSU. Replacing with Texas Tech, and 2 G5 schools commonly on recruit lists for P5: SDSU and Memphis

And let's skip Cal - I think they burned their bridge pretty well.

And I can understand wanting to keep Pitt with WV for the rivalry, but I think they are more likely to the B10 with the other Big East schools, in your scenario.

On the other hand, keeping Colorado as part of the 4Cs in the SEC.

And in the same vein, pairing up Kansas and Missouri in the B10.

And, as we all know by now, ND football isn't joining anyone lol - But let's leave a spot open in both conferences so that each can still hope : )

And noting that all members of this version of the B10 are either AAU, or were formerly (Syracuse, Nebraska, Iowa State) - except Miami.

Enjoy : )

----
B1G (29 schools in 5x6 structure)
ATLANTIC: Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Rutgers, Georgia Tech, Miami
EAST: Penn State, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke
NORTH: Wisconsin, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State
SOUTH: Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Purdue
WEST: Northwestern, Minnesota, Iowa, Iowa State, Nebraska
PACIFIC: USC, UCLA, Stanford, Washington, Oregon

SEC (29 schools in 5x6 structure)
ATLANTIC: Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Clemson, South Carolina
SOUTHEAST: Auburn, Alabama, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, LSU
SOUTH: Kentucky, Louisville, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Memphis
EAST: West Virginia, Cincinnati, Virginia Tech, NC State
SOUTHWEST: Texas, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Arkansas
WEST: Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Arizona State, SDSU

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

I wouldn’t worry about the State of Kentucky. Politicians in Kentucky won’t waste their time worrying about Louisville’s future.

(01-01-2023 08:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

I wouldn’t worry about the State of Kentucky. Politicians in Kentucky won’t waste their time worrying about Louisville’s future.

CJ, you have never been shy about saying that you weren't 100% certain that the ACC was the best location for Louisville.
Would Louisville be more comfortable in the Big 12, perhaps with the addition of Memphis too?
Would ESPN attempt to keep the Big 12 out of Florida by moving UCF into the ACC?

(01-02-2023 03:31 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 08:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

I wouldn’t worry about the State of Kentucky. Politicians in Kentucky won’t waste their time worrying about Louisville’s future.

CJ, you have never been shy about saying that you weren't 100% certain that the ACC was the best location for Louisville.
Would Louisville be more comfortable in the Big 12, perhaps with the addition of Memphis too?
Would ESPN attempt to keep the Big 12 out of Florida by moving UCF into the ACC?

Louisville is probably a better fit for the Big 12, true. The league made a mistake when they overlooked them and the ACC benefitted. UCF is already in the Big 12, a conference that has already agreed to a new deal with ESPN so your last comment doesn't hold water.

We'll see what happens with the SEC and ACC as far as how creative a new alignment could get. I think that's the storyline that could get interesting.

Either way, the ACC isn't really in a tenable situation and someone has to find a way to alter the calculus. I'm of the belief that most ACC schools will benefit from whatever comes next.

The Big 12's best opportunities are to the West as the PAC has a very short leg to stand on whether the Big Ten comes calling or not. Could the Big 12 also be used as a landing spot for some ACC schools? I think that's possible too.

(01-03-2023 09:22 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 03:31 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 08:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

I wouldn’t worry about the State of Kentucky. Politicians in Kentucky won’t waste their time worrying about Louisville’s future.

CJ, you have never been shy about saying that you weren't 100% certain that the ACC was the best location for Louisville.
Would Louisville be more comfortable in the Big 12, perhaps with the addition of Memphis too?
Would ESPN attempt to keep the Big 12 out of Florida by moving UCF into the ACC?

Louisville is probably a better fit for the Big 12, true. The league made a mistake when they overlooked them and the ACC benefitted. UCF is already in the Big 12, a conference that has already agreed to a new deal with ESPN so your last comment doesn't hold water.

We'll see what happens with the SEC and ACC as far as how creative a new alignment could get. I think that's the storyline that could get interesting.

Either way, the ACC isn't really in a tenable situation and someone has to find a way to alter the calculus. I'm of the belief that most ACC schools will benefit from whatever comes next.

The Big 12's best opportunities are to the West as the PAC has a very short leg to stand on whether the Big Ten comes calling or not. Could the Big 12 also be used as a landing spot for some ACC schools? I think that's possible too.

The top brands of the PAC, Kansas, and the top brands of the ACC are all looking for ways to consolidate with the best money. It started in July of 2021 and I think it begins an acceleration after the CFP is over. Should be an interesting next 6 months.

(01-04-2023 06:07 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2023 09:22 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(01-02-2023 03:31 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-01-2023 08:40 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(12-15-2022 05:52 AM)XLance Wrote:  Well they don't call it the left coast for nothing.
If the B1G could withdraw their invitation to UCLA, they should.

Can you imagine politicians in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina and Kentucky now demanding that the SEC schools in those states subsidize the ACC schools in their states?

Socialism is being introduced into college athletics.

It brings to mind a line from the Bobby Womack classic written with his sister-in-law (Shirley Womack) which was the Rolling Stones first #1 hit.
"You know I used to love her...but it's all over now"

I wouldn’t worry about the State of Kentucky. Politicians in Kentucky won’t waste their time worrying about Louisville’s future.

CJ, you have never been shy about saying that you weren't 100% certain that the ACC was the best location for Louisville.
Would Louisville be more comfortable in the Big 12, perhaps with the addition of Memphis too?
Would ESPN attempt to keep the Big 12 out of Florida by moving UCF into the ACC?

Louisville is probably a better fit for the Big 12, true. The league made a mistake when they overlooked them and the ACC benefitted. UCF is already in the Big 12, a conference that has already agreed to a new deal with ESPN so your last comment doesn't hold water.

We'll see what happens with the SEC and ACC as far as how creative a new alignment could get. I think that's the storyline that could get interesting.

Either way, the ACC isn't really in a tenable situation and someone has to find a way to alter the calculus. I'm of the belief that most ACC schools will benefit from whatever comes next.

The Big 12's best opportunities are to the West as the PAC has a very short leg to stand on whether the Big Ten comes calling or not. Could the Big 12 also be used as a landing spot for some ACC schools? I think that's possible too.

The top brands of the PAC, Kansas, and the top brands of the ACC are all looking for ways to consolidate with the best money. It started in July of 2021 and I think it begins an acceleration after the CFP is over. Should be an interesting next 6 months.

Yes.

Unless they all miss the boat and nothing happens - which I think would be bad for those you listed. This isn't a time to be sitting on one's hands.