Interesting shifts among Asian Americans, the issues in NYC have similarities to Fairfax County VA where the elimination of meritocracy is in play. No mention of DEI (equity) mentioned specifically though like CRT, I imagine The NY Times doesn’t believe it exists, at least as a problem to be reviewed.

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nyt...a8f75186a0

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher...-dont-know

Equality vs Equity

(03-06-2023 09:14 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  Interesting shifts among Asian Americans, the issues in NYC have similarities to Fairfax County VA where the elimination of meritocracy is in play. No mention of DEI (equity) mentioned specifically though like CRT, I imagine The NY Times doesn’t believe it exists, at least as a problem to be reviewed.

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nyt...a8f75186a0

The article you posted suggested that crime is the biggest reason for shifts among Asian Americans in NYC.

(03-06-2023 09:51 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher...-dont-know

Equality vs Equity

I agree, Bernie Sanders doesn't know the difference between equity and equality.

(03-06-2023 09:56 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 09:14 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  Interesting shifts among Asian Americans, the issues in NYC have similarities to Fairfax County VA where the elimination of meritocracy is in play. No mention of DEI (equity) mentioned specifically though like CRT, I imagine The NY Times doesn’t believe it exists, at least as a problem to be reviewed.

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nyt...a8f75186a0

The article you posted suggested that crime is the biggest reason for shifts among Asian Americans in NYC.

No question in NYC and surrounding area, crime is the lead issue. It’s the major reason NY State flipped 4 house seats to Republicans in the last election. It still remains the big issue in NYC.

However, the education issue is becoming a hotter topic in NYC now as well. Same fundamental issues with Northern Virginia (TJ HS). The primary victims are Asian American in both instances. The merit scholarship cases in Northern Virginia appear to be a bit more sinister in my view (they were done behind the peoples knowledge and met with early denial). I’m very pleased the State is going after them. I actually wondered since we are talking national merit commendations and Northern Virginia, how many of those kids who were denied even knowing they were awarded, also applied to W&M. Betting most. I think the issue would have remained buried under the previous admin or TM if he had won the election.

From The NY Times article:
Education issues hurt Democrats. Asian voters have been unhappy with proposals to change the rules for magnet high schools like Stuyvesant that admit children based on test scores. Many students at those schools come from lower-income Asian families.

I hope that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. If it ends up being a racist school employee intentionally not sending notifications to students, that's horrible and I hope that Miyares' investigation finds them and prosecutes them to the fullest extent of the law.

We're losing the thread here though. The point of DEI is to let high achievers get the opportunity to be a high achiever. If there's policy being passed that removes and/or outlaws DEI, there needs to be evidence that it's causing harm or at least not doing what it's intending to do. The reason for the points in the Harvard paper is that resistance to DEI is often due to misrepresentation of the goals and/or results of DEI.

(03-06-2023 10:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, it's more likely that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. That's why I think it's more likely to be that someone screwed up rather than someone acted maliciously.

We're losing the thread here though. The point of DEI is to let high achievers get the opportunity to be a high achiever. If there's policy being passed that removes and/or outlaws DEI, there needs to be evidence that it's causing harm or at least not doing what it's intending to do. The reason for the points in the Harvard paper is that resistance to DEI is often due to misrepresentation of the goals and/or results of DEI.

I don’t think we’re losing the thread at all. Equity is part of the three part foundation of DEI. Not equality, equity. They have different objectives. Even when spoon fed the differences by Bill Maher (equal opportunity vs equalized results), Bernie couldn’t even defend equity. And it’s equity that’s creating the issues covered here, going back to the original concerns from Chapel Hill.

Now we’re seeing examples of the problems they are creating. You can’t say DEI is structured to advance high achievers when it’s doing the opposite. It’s punishing them.

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 10:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, it's more likely that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. That's why I think it's more likely to be that someone screwed up rather than someone acted maliciously.

We're losing the thread here though. The point of DEI is to let high achievers get the opportunity to be a high achiever. If there's policy being passed that removes and/or outlaws DEI, there needs to be evidence that it's causing harm or at least not doing what it's intending to do. The reason for the points in the Harvard paper is that resistance to DEI is often due to misrepresentation of the goals and/or results of DEI.

I don’t think we’re losing the thread at all. Equity is part of the three part foundation of DEI. Not equality, equity. They have different objectives. Even when spoon fed the differences by Bill Maher (equal opportunity vs equalized results), Bernie couldn’t even defend equity. And it’s equity that’s creating the issues covered here, going back to the original concerns from Chapel Hill.

Now we’re seeing examples of the problems they are creating. You can’t say DEI is structured to advance high achievers when it’s doing the opposite. It’s punishing them.

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 10:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, it's more likely that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. That's why I think it's more likely to be that someone screwed up rather than someone acted maliciously.

We're losing the thread here though. The point of DEI is to let high achievers get the opportunity to be a high achiever. If there's policy being passed that removes and/or outlaws DEI, there needs to be evidence that it's causing harm or at least not doing what it's intending to do. The reason for the points in the Harvard paper is that resistance to DEI is often due to misrepresentation of the goals and/or results of DEI.

I don’t think we’re losing the thread at all. Equity is part of the three part foundation of DEI. Not equality, equity. They have different objectives. Even when spoon fed the differences by Bill Maher (equal opportunity vs equalized results), Bernie couldn’t even defend equity. And it’s equity that’s creating the issues covered here, going back to the original concerns from Chapel Hill.

Now we’re seeing examples of the problems they are creating. You can’t say DEI is structured to advance high achievers when it’s doing the opposite. It’s punishing them.

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Call it what you wish but most would call it any number of things. Irresponsible, despicable, discriminatory. I bet those who fall victim to it would call it something unpleasant. And stop with the Fox straw man. The articles are sprinkled throughout here to include the Washington Post, NY Times and National Review.

Meanwhile you lean on an opinion piece from three Harvard Profs as if that’s somehow more legit. It’s nothing more than an opinion piece by three progressive professors. They probably have other articles debasing the majority that think Covid originated in the Wuhan Lab.

(03-06-2023 10:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  I hope that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. If it ends up being a racist school employee intentionally not sending notifications to students, that's horrible and I hope that Miyares' investigation finds them and prosecutes them to the fullest extent of the law.

I think when it was just one HS, you could feign stupidity. Last I heard the list of Fairfax HS who withheld had grown to 13. Very doubtful you can attribute it to one person - interesting though you call them racist. It seems to be a widespread effort on behalf of Fairfax school officials.

Fact is it’s likely sinister AND stupid.

And let’s not forget TJ HS. Separate issue though DEI related.

I’m sure Terry would have buried this. Thankfully we have an admin willing to look into this.

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  [quote='WMInTheBurg' pid='18825613' dateline='1678161240']

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Semantic games. From the Fairfax Times, this Father, whose child was one of the victims here, describes as cruel and evil.

“A Langley father, who spoke on condition of anonymity in fear of retaliation from the school district, said Virginia Tech recently rejected his son’s application for early admission and the family was shocked to open the principal’s email – in the middle of the night – with the news that their son was a Commended Student.

“School district officials are deliberately sabotaging our kids’ lives in the name of ‘equity,’” the father said. “It’s cruel, if not evil. Think about the despondency that they are creating.”

https://www.fairfaxtimes.com/articles/ar...fb584.html

(03-07-2023 08:43 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  [quote='WMInTheBurg' pid='18825613' dateline='1678161240']

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Semantic games. From the Fairfax Times, this Father, whose child was one of the victims here, describes as cruel and evil.

“A Langley father, who spoke on condition of anonymity in fear of retaliation from the school district, said Virginia Tech recently rejected his son’s application for early admission and the family was shocked to open the principal’s email – in the middle of the night – with the news that their son was a Commended Student.

“School district officials are deliberately sabotaging our kids’ lives in the name of ‘equity,’” the father said. “It’s cruel, if not evil. Think about the despondency that they are creating.”

https://www.fairfaxtimes.com/articles/ar...fb584.html

This is not DEI-related, unless I missed something where a DEI office required the letters not to go out. The article talks about a contract with a company about equity training, but I don't see anything in the article that even suggests they're related. It's simply a separate item in the same article.

There continues to be no evidence that anyone has been "punished" due to anything related to DEI.

(03-07-2023 08:58 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 08:43 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  [quote='WMInTheBurg' pid='18825613' dateline='1678161240']

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Semantic games. From the Fairfax Times, this Father, whose child was one of the victims here, describes as cruel and evil.

“A Langley father, who spoke on condition of anonymity in fear of retaliation from the school district, said Virginia Tech recently rejected his son’s application for early admission and the family was shocked to open the principal’s email – in the middle of the night – with the news that their son was a Commended Student.

“School district officials are deliberately sabotaging our kids’ lives in the name of ‘equity,’” the father said. “It’s cruel, if not evil. Think about the despondency that they are creating.”

https://www.fairfaxtimes.com/articles/ar...fb584.html

This is not DEI-related

How could you possibly know that? Those being impacted apparently believe so.

Stage 1 is always denial.

(03-07-2023 08:04 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 10:54 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, it's more likely that Hanlon's Razor applies here. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I don't know what is gained by not notifying students that they're National Merit Scholars. That's why I think it's more likely to be that someone screwed up rather than someone acted maliciously.

We're losing the thread here though. The point of DEI is to let high achievers get the opportunity to be a high achiever. If there's policy being passed that removes and/or outlaws DEI, there needs to be evidence that it's causing harm or at least not doing what it's intending to do. The reason for the points in the Harvard paper is that resistance to DEI is often due to misrepresentation of the goals and/or results of DEI.

I don’t think we’re losing the thread at all. Equity is part of the three part foundation of DEI. Not equality, equity. They have different objectives. Even when spoon fed the differences by Bill Maher (equal opportunity vs equalized results), Bernie couldn’t even defend equity. And it’s equity that’s creating the issues covered here, going back to the original concerns from Chapel Hill.

Now we’re seeing examples of the problems they are creating. You can’t say DEI is structured to advance high achievers when it’s doing the opposite. It’s punishing them.

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Call it what you wish but most would call it any number of things. Irresponsible, despicable, discriminatory. I bet those who fall victim to it would call it something unpleasant. And stop with the Fox straw man. The articles are sprinkled throughout here to include the Washington Post, NY Times and National Review.

Meanwhile you lean on an opinion piece from three Harvard Profs as if that’s somehow more legit. It’s nothing more than an opinion piece by three progressive professors. They probably have other articles debasing the majority that think Covid originated in the Wuhan Lab.

You said "going back to the original concerns from Chapel Hill", so I referred back to that link. I'm not sure what you think constitutes a strawman there.

w/r/t the Harvard piece, I do lean on it. To this point, you've attacked the authors but haven't disputed the points made in the article.

(03-07-2023 09:05 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 08:58 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 08:43 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-06-2023 11:10 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  [quote='WMInTheBurg' pid='18825613' dateline='1678161240']

There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Semantic games. From the Fairfax Times, this Father, whose child was one of the victims here, describes as cruel and evil.

“A Langley father, who spoke on condition of anonymity in fear of retaliation from the school district, said Virginia Tech recently rejected his son’s application for early admission and the family was shocked to open the principal’s email – in the middle of the night – with the news that their son was a Commended Student.

“School district officials are deliberately sabotaging our kids’ lives in the name of ‘equity,’” the father said. “It’s cruel, if not evil. Think about the despondency that they are creating.”

https://www.fairfaxtimes.com/articles/ar...fb584.html

This is not DEI-related

How could you possibly know that? Those being impacted apparently believe so.

Stage 1 is always denial.

I want to make sure I'm getting your argument straight and not losing it in the crossposts. Can you make a post that collects all of the evidence of harm caused by DEI programs? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

(03-07-2023 09:51 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 09:05 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 08:58 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 08:43 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 01:10 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  There is no evidence of "punishing them" anywhere in this thread, much less in the original Fox News opinion piece.

Semantic games. From the Fairfax Times, this Father, whose child was one of the victims here, describes as cruel and evil.

“A Langley father, who spoke on condition of anonymity in fear of retaliation from the school district, said Virginia Tech recently rejected his son’s application for early admission and the family was shocked to open the principal’s email – in the middle of the night – with the news that their son was a Commended Student.

“School district officials are deliberately sabotaging our kids’ lives in the name of ‘equity,’” the father said. “It’s cruel, if not evil. Think about the despondency that they are creating.”

https://www.fairfaxtimes.com/articles/ar...fb584.html

This is not DEI-related

How could you possibly know that? Those being impacted apparently believe so.

Stage 1 is always denial.

I want to make sure I'm getting your argument straight and not losing it in the crossposts. Can you make a post that collects all of the evidence of harm caused by DEI programs? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

There are a lot of posts because the number of issues are growing so rapidly. I’ll keep posting them here.

What I haven’t seen is anyone who can explain how equity and meritocracy coexist without discrimination. All I’ve seen is an opinion piece written by three progressive Harvard professors on the apparent issues among those who dare challenge or oppose the equity methodology.

(03-07-2023 10:21 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  What I haven’t seen is anyone who can explain how equity and meritocracy coexist without discrimination. All I’ve seen is an opinion piece written by three progressive Harvard professors on the apparent issues among those who dare challenge or oppose the equity methodology.

I think that's because the thread was about a policy change made by the UNC Board of Governors to solve a problem that's imaginary.

Your question assumes that there's currently a meritocracy rather than a meritocracy only among students that can afford it. The point of DEI is to help the potential high achievers that do not have resources to get into the meritocracy. I think we're all in agreement that the smart kids should get a chance to be smart, no matter their socioeconomic status.

(03-07-2023 11:20 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 10:21 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  What I haven’t seen is anyone who can explain how equity and meritocracy coexist without discrimination. All I’ve seen is an opinion piece written by three progressive Harvard professors on the apparent issues among those who dare challenge or oppose the equity methodology.

I think that's because the thread was about a policy change made by the UNC Board of Governors to solve a problem that's imaginary.

You do realize that’s simply your opinion. You insinuate your opinion is fact.

(03-07-2023 11:20 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-07-2023 10:21 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  What I haven’t seen is anyone who can explain how equity and meritocracy coexist without discrimination. All I’ve seen is an opinion piece written by three progressive Harvard professors on the apparent issues among those who dare challenge or oppose the equity methodology.

I think we're all in agreement that the smart kids should get a chance to be smart, no matter their socioeconomic status.

Yes, and race or ethnicity, as in the issues brought forward in NYC and Fairfax County. Discrimination in any form.

We only disagree I think that DEI, specifically equity, requires discrimination in order to implement.

I don't think it requires discrimination in order to implement. The goal of DEI is to take the existing pool of students and add those who didn't have the resources to be part of the pool. If there's a fixed number of positions available to the pool, then a reduction in one particular group (race or ethnicity) can result simply from new participants that deserve the positions based on merit.

This is a very contrived example, but bear with me please. Assume that the 5 best basketball players in the country were Hispanic but none of them had the resources to be able to play basketball. The DEI goal would be to figure out how to get them the opportunity to show how good they are at basketball. If they took spots on the team that were previously held by black and white players, the percentage of black and white players goes down. You wouldn't say that those players were discriminated against, you would say that according to meritocracy the right players were now on the team.

Policy implementation can be flawed, but that doesn't mean that the purpose of DEI is flawed. It means that the policies need to be fixed.