(03-09-2023 04:51 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 04:12 PM)wmmii Wrote:  Ayesa and Wight in the transfer portal.

Time for Mann to take action


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This time I believe that this has nothing to do with the players not getting along with each other but everything to do with (a) growing weary of losing and (b) having a coaching staff with absolutely no plan whatsoever to get us back on the winning path TODAY!!! We did not have bad personnel this year. Bad personnel could not have beaten Towson at home with two starters injured, nor could bad personnel have beaten UNCW on the road. What we had was very bad coaching for the 4th "Year One".

There is no confusion this year. the players played hard every game. Losing good players that you want to retain falls squarely in the lap of Dane. I am glad that the guys went into the portal now rather than responding to a coaching change so that there is no doubt why they want to leave.

For Ben, it has nothing to do with basketball… it’s institutional. William & Mary lacks grad school options relative to other schools. Ben majored in Kinesiology, there is no kinesiology grad program at W&M. He’d be wasting an academic year to come back.

As far as Miguel goes, he could’ve come back but those decisions were made far before the last few weeks of the season when Miguel was making an impact. He’s a career 4 ppg guy that can’t defend, staff was never bringing him back.

They were both at the school for 4 years, at some point it’s time to move on.

(03-09-2023 05:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Edit: adding this... Karasinski, Williams, Rice, or Milkereit entering the portal is damning. If Lowe enters, I don't think it's a big deal given his usage this year. That is, I'd expect a player who had a season like Lowe to enter the portal from any school. I don't think it would be an indictment of the coaches here.

Rice and Milkereit *staying* is a bigger red flag for the program than if they leave. It’s not their fault; they’re just not impact players for a winning program at this level and clearly not in the best standing with the staff. A program who had all-stars banging down its door would kindly sit them down and tell them their future is brighter somewhere else. If they’re in the plans, we’re not expecting many additions.

Nice kids, I’m sure. And both have admirably worked through struggles. But on the court it’s not a big deal to lose either one. A program that expects to improve has to raise its standards. They are welcome to flirt around for a program who seemingly values them more but I suspect their options would be limited.

That said, as it stands I expect both to indeed have spots—Rice as the backup 2, Milkereit as a rotation wing. But I’m also expecting another below .500 season.

(03-09-2023 08:58 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 05:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Edit: adding this... Karasinski, Williams, Rice, or Milkereit entering the portal is damning. If Lowe enters, I don't think it's a big deal given his usage this year. That is, I'd expect a player who had a season like Lowe to enter the portal from any school. I don't think it would be an indictment of the coaches here.

Rice and Milkereit *staying* is a bigger red flag for the program than if they leave. It’s not their fault; they’re just not impact players for a winning program at this level and clearly not in the best standing with the staff. A program who had all-stars banging down its door would kindly sit them down and tell them their future is brighter somewhere else. If they’re in the plans, we’re not expecting many additions.

Nice kids, I’m sure. And both have admirably worked through struggles. But on the court it’s not a big deal to lose either one. A program that expects to improve has to raise its standards. They are welcome to flirt around for a program who seemingly values them more but I suspect their options would be limited.

That said, as it stands I expect both to indeed have spots—Rice as the backup 2, Milkereit as a rotation wing. But I’m also expecting another below .500 season.

If you can separate players from coaching here, you're better than me. It looks to me like almost every player we've had for 4 years has been either playing out of position or running an offense that doesn't fit their skillset. Jake this year was back athletically in a way he hadn't been since he got here. I'd love to see what Tyler looked like with competent coaching that helped him be the best player he can be.

With the results we had, it doesn't matter who we lose from the entire roster. If you made them play the way our coaches did, all of our players are replaceable. Mullins scored 1000 points at Rice, came here and suddenly had games where he didn't score for 30 minutes of a game. Tell me it's the players and not the coaches and I'll know you're not paying attention.

So with 4 of 5 starters from the Hofstra game leaving and Case (5th starter) not scoring in that game, we have no starting scoring returning. On the positive side our bench scored 7 points in that game and they are returning … so far
Not to fear … all our coaching is set to return … so far

(03-09-2023 11:48 PM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  So with 4 of 5 starters from the Hofstra game leaving and Case (5th starter) not scoring in that game, we have no starting scoring returning. On the positive side our bench scored 7 points in that game and they are returning … so far
Not to fear … all our coaching is set to return … so far

I’m not saying Case is a scoring machine, but that’s a rather cherry picked statistic to base returning scoring on who scored in our worst game of the season.


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(03-10-2023 08:06 AM)wml33t Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 11:48 PM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  So with 4 of 5 starters from the Hofstra game leaving and Case (5th starter) not scoring in that game, we have no starting scoring returning. On the positive side our bench scored 7 points in that game and they are returning … so far
Not to fear … all our coaching is set to return … so far

I’m not saying Case is a scoring machine, but that’s a rather cherry picked statistic to base returning scoring on who scored in our worst game of the season.


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It wasn’t meant as analytics.
Analytics:
4/top 6 scorers gone
52% of scoring gone
75% of assists gone
52% of steals gone

Simply put there is a void to fill either with players on team, transfers, or incoming recruits. 4/5 top players in minutes this year were transfers in.
Live by the portal …

(03-10-2023 08:35 AM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 08:06 AM)wml33t Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 11:48 PM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  So with 4 of 5 starters from the Hofstra game leaving and Case (5th starter) not scoring in that game, we have no starting scoring returning. On the positive side our bench scored 7 points in that game and they are returning … so far
Not to fear … all our coaching is set to return … so far

I’m not saying Case is a scoring machine, but that’s a rather cherry picked statistic to base returning scoring on who scored in our worst game of the season.


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It wasn’t meant as analytics.
Analytics:
4/top 6 scorers gone
52% of scoring gone
75% of assists gone
52% of steals gone

Simply put there is a void to fill either with players on team, transfers, or incoming recruits. 4/5 top players in minutes this year were transfers in.
Live by the portal …

This would seem to me to be a big opportunity for those players who stay the course at W&M to gain playing time and opportunity. It is the College Athletic Department's, (Coaches and Administration) job to supplement their talent with players of compatible skills and create a system in which they all can flourish and succeed to the best of their collective abilities.

(03-10-2023 08:35 AM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 08:06 AM)wml33t Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 11:48 PM)Sic Semper Tyrranis Wrote:  So with 4 of 5 starters from the Hofstra game leaving and Case (5th starter) not scoring in that game, we have no starting scoring returning. On the positive side our bench scored 7 points in that game and they are returning … so far
Not to fear … all our coaching is set to return … so far

I’m not saying Case is a scoring machine, but that’s a rather cherry picked statistic to base returning scoring on who scored in our worst game of the season.


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It wasn’t meant as analytics.
Analytics:
4/top 6 scorers gone
52% of scoring gone
75% of assists gone
52% of steals gone

Simply put there is a void to fill either with players on team, transfers, or incoming recruits. 4/5 top players in minutes this year were transfers in.
Live by the portal …

Sorry I snapped at you a bit there. I've gotten frustrated at how some folks (not you) are talking about individual student athletes in this thread and that made me want to defend Case a bit here.

FWIW - I think Case is a solid piece that will be a strong contributor if he stays his whole career at the Tribe, but your overall point is certainly accurate - a large portion of our contributors look to be gone next year.

Years of Eligibility Left | Height | Player Name

Transfers Coming to the CAA (and previous school):
(None)

CAA Players in the Portal (and destination school):
Towson: 1Y 6’4 Nicholas Timberlake
W&M: 1Y 6’5 Miguel Ayesa, 2Y 6’9 Ben Wight

Players in the portal WM is interested in (* means player followed back):
2Y 6’8 Rich Byhre from Rockhurst (Howland* 3/8)
1Y 6’4 Sean Houpt from Florida Tech (third party tweet, 3/9)

(03-10-2023 09:08 AM)wml33t Wrote:  … a large portion of our contributors look to be gone next year.

Keep in mind that those players were key contributors on a team that was not very good.

To me, one of the things that highlights how this coaching staff doesn’t have a clue is Ayesa. They underutilized him all year and didn’t figure it out until the last handful of games. Moreover, now that they can see that he is a lot better than they thought he was, they seem uninterested in coaxing him back for a Covid year.

It also shows that players (like Wight, for example) should never be redshirted unless injured. All that does is make the player graduate with eligibility which he will then use somewhere else.

(03-10-2023 11:01 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 09:08 AM)wml33t Wrote:  … a large portion of our contributors look to be gone next year.

Keep in mind that those players were key contributors on a team that was not very good.

To me, one of the things that highlights how this coaching staff doesn’t have a clue is Ayesa. They underutilized him all year and didn’t figure it out until the last handful of games. Moreover, now that they can see that he is a lot better than they thought he was, they seem uninterested in coaxing him back for a Covid year.

It also shows that players (like Wight, for example) should never be redshirted unless injured. All that does is make the player graduate with eligibility which he will then use somewhere else.

All excellent points!!

(03-10-2023 11:01 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 09:08 AM)wml33t Wrote:  … a large portion of our contributors look to be gone next year.

Keep in mind that those players were key contributors on a team that was not very good.

To me, one of the things that highlights how this coaching staff doesn’t have a clue is Ayesa. They underutilized him all year and didn’t figure it out until the last handful of games. Moreover, now that they can see that he is a lot better than they thought he was, they seem uninterested in coaxing him back for a Covid year.

It also shows that players (like Wight, for example) should never be redshirted unless injured. All that does is make the player graduate with eligibility which he will then use somewhere else.

Wight was getting 0 minutes his true freshman year while Knight and Van Vliet were still here. Wight had a lot of work to do that year to get up to CAA level. I agree in general though that if players redshirt, they will just leave for another school with the instant transfer rules.

(03-09-2023 11:03 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 08:58 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 05:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Edit: adding this... Karasinski, Williams, Rice, or Milkereit entering the portal is damning. If Lowe enters, I don't think it's a big deal given his usage this year. That is, I'd expect a player who had a season like Lowe to enter the portal from any school. I don't think it would be an indictment of the coaches here.

Rice and Milkereit *staying* is a bigger red flag for the program than if they leave. It’s not their fault; they’re just not impact players for a winning program at this level and clearly not in the best standing with the staff. A program who had all-stars banging down its door would kindly sit them down and tell them their future is brighter somewhere else. If they’re in the plans, we’re not expecting many additions.

Nice kids, I’m sure. And both have admirably worked through struggles. But on the court it’s not a big deal to lose either one. A program that expects to improve has to raise its standards. They are welcome to flirt around for a program who seemingly values them more but I suspect their options would be limited.

That said, as it stands I expect both to indeed have spots—Rice as the backup 2, Milkereit as a rotation wing. But I’m also expecting another below .500 season.

If you can separate players from coaching here, you're better than me. It looks to me like almost every player we've had for 4 years has been either playing out of position or running an offense that doesn't fit their skillset. Jake this year was back athletically in a way he hadn't been since he got here. I'd love to see what Tyler looked like with competent coaching that helped him be the best player he can be.

With the results we had, it doesn't matter who we lose from the entire roster. If you made them play the way our coaches did, all of our players are replaceable. Mullins scored 1000 points at Rice, came here and suddenly had games where he didn't score for 30 minutes of a game. Tell me it's the players and not the coaches and I'll know you're not paying attention.

I certainly agree that the staff is not maximizing the potential of the players, but that's really more of a tangential question. Any coach, good or bad, would try to clear out the bottom of their roster if they thought they could bring in lots of good players. If they're not doing so, then they're not getting the guys they want out of the portal. We have three spots open at the moment and perhaps that is all we'll be made to make use of.

(03-10-2023 12:05 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 11:03 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 08:58 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-09-2023 05:34 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Edit: adding this... Karasinski, Williams, Rice, or Milkereit entering the portal is damning. If Lowe enters, I don't think it's a big deal given his usage this year. That is, I'd expect a player who had a season like Lowe to enter the portal from any school. I don't think it would be an indictment of the coaches here.

Rice and Milkereit *staying* is a bigger red flag for the program than if they leave. It’s not their fault; they’re just not impact players for a winning program at this level and clearly not in the best standing with the staff. A program who had all-stars banging down its door would kindly sit them down and tell them their future is brighter somewhere else. If they’re in the plans, we’re not expecting many additions.

Nice kids, I’m sure. And both have admirably worked through struggles. But on the court it’s not a big deal to lose either one. A program that expects to improve has to raise its standards. They are welcome to flirt around for a program who seemingly values them more but I suspect their options would be limited.

That said, as it stands I expect both to indeed have spots—Rice as the backup 2, Milkereit as a rotation wing. But I’m also expecting another below .500 season.

If you can separate players from coaching here, you're better than me. It looks to me like almost every player we've had for 4 years has been either playing out of position or running an offense that doesn't fit their skillset. Jake this year was back athletically in a way he hadn't been since he got here. I'd love to see what Tyler looked like with competent coaching that helped him be the best player he can be.

With the results we had, it doesn't matter who we lose from the entire roster. If you made them play the way our coaches did, all of our players are replaceable. Mullins scored 1000 points at Rice, came here and suddenly had games where he didn't score for 30 minutes of a game. Tell me it's the players and not the coaches and I'll know you're not paying attention.

I certainly agree that the staff is not maximizing the potential of the players, but that's really more of a tangential question. Any coach, good or bad, would try to clear out the bottom of their roster if they thought they could bring in lots of good players. If they're not doing so, then they're not getting the guys they want out of the portal. We have three spots open at the moment and perhaps that is all we'll be made to make use of.

IMO, if you're "clearing out" the bottom of your roster then you're going back on your word given with the scholarships. That's the kind of thing dishonest coaches do, and I don't want a part of it.

I don't think players getting recruited over is the same thing, fwiw. You bring in the best players you can get. But bringing in a player only to drive them off marks you as an unethical program. If you're churning your roster not just with players graduating but players getting sent off, it says more about the coaches than it does players.

(03-10-2023 11:01 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 09:08 AM)wml33t Wrote:  … a large portion of our contributors look to be gone next year.

Keep in mind that those players were key contributors on a team that was not very good.

To me, one of the things that highlights how this coaching staff doesn’t have a clue is Ayesa. They underutilized him all year and didn’t figure it out until the last handful of games. Moreover, now that they can see that he is a lot better than they thought he was, they seem uninterested in coaxing him back for a Covid year.

It also shows that players (like Wight, for example) should never be redshirted unless injured. All that does is make the player graduate with eligibility which he will then use somewhere else.

To be fair, Ayesa was given significant minutes earlier in the season, but he had a stretch of 2-3 bad shooting games. Hard to justify Ayesa on the floor when his 3-pt shooting is off. You can argue, Dane should have given Ayesa his second chance sooner I suppose.

I’m not a defender of Dane and would have no problem if Mann replaces him. However, this is a difficult roster to manage. There’s collective talent, enough to win, but very few clear-cut starters. Anders and Wight are easy choices, but after that you had a bunch of guys with varied skill sets/weaknesses that at any given point in the season were trending up or down with their play.

Here’s what I’m comfortable laying at the feet of Dane:

1) He should have realized way sooner that you can’t have Collier and Wight on the floor at the same time for extended periods. Especially with Mullens playing so much, because then you have 3/5 players only capable of scoring from 10 ft and in.

2) Mullens underperformed offensively and I can only assume he digressed offensively from his time at Rice. He would consistently penetrate, but was hesitant to try and score. Instead he'd get in deep and jump stop, get blocked or try to force a pass to a big in tight quarters. If I’m Dane I’m telling Mullens that is he gets to the rim to go up strong and live with the result. No confidence and it's clear he was in his own head.

3) Lack of variation in offensive and defensive looks. Improved some as the season went on, but took way too long to develop. Few attempts to adjust the offense to get the best shooters (Dorsey, Ayesa and Anders) more open shots. Anders was our highest percentage shooter and only reliable mid-range shooter, but he was left to always create his own shot.

4) Mishandling of Rice. No, he clearly is not a good point guard at this time, but his 2nd chance to play minutes at the 2 should have come sooner in hindsight. As HC, Dane should have realized this sooner.

In the end analysis, there was a decent amount of overall basketball talent on a team that consistently played hard. I think there was an under-performance and we left another 4-6 wins on the table and that falls mostly on Dane.

(03-10-2023 03:15 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  To be fair, Ayesa was given significant minutes earlier in the season, but he had a stretch of 2-3 bad shooting games. Hard to justify Ayesa on the floor when his 3-pt shooting is off. You can argue, Dane should have given Ayesa his second chance sooner I suppose.

I’m not a defender of Dane and would have no problem if Mann replaces him. However, this is a difficult roster to manage. There’s collective talent, enough to win, but very few clear-cut starters. Anders and Wight are easy choices, but after that you had a bunch of guys with varied skill sets/weaknesses that at any given point in the season were trending up or down with their play.

Here’s what I’m comfortable laying at the feet of Dane:

1) He should have realized way sooner that you can’t have Collier and Wight on the floor at the same time for extended periods. Especially with Mullens playing so much, because then you have 3/5 players only capable of scoring from 10 ft and in.

2) Mullens underperformed offensively and I can only assume he digressed offensively from his time at Rice. He would consistently penetrate, but was hesitant to try and score. Instead he'd get in deep and jump stop, get blocked or try to force a pass to a big in tight quarters. If I’m Dane I’m telling Mullens that is he gets to the rim to go up strong and live with the result. No confidence and it's clear he was in his own head.

3) Lack of variation in offensive and defensive looks. Improved some as the season went on, but took way too long to develop. Few attempts to adjust the offense to get the best shooters (Dorsey, Ayesa and Anders) more open shots. Anders was our highest percentage shooter and only reliable mid-range shooter, but he was left to always create his own shot.

4) Mishandling of Rice. No, he clearly is not a good point guard at this time, but his 2nd chance to play minutes at the 2 should have come sooner in hindsight. As HC, Dane should have realized this sooner.

In the end analysis, there was a decent amount of overall basketball talent on a team that consistently played hard. I think there was an under-performance and we left another 4-6 wins on the table and that falls mostly on Dane.

Good points, 90, but I'm not comfortable saying anything about any players' ability given how poorly the coaching staff performed. In 4 years, there have been few players that have been coached to their potential, maybe just one in Luke Loewe. I maintain that Fischer underperformed with Knight and Van Vliet and has continued to underperform every year since.

6’4 Ebby Asamoah, who averaged 24 mpg for Delaware, is entering the portal as a grad transfer.

https://www.verbalcommits.com/players/ebby-asamoah

(03-10-2023 12:38 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, if you're "clearing out" the bottom of your roster then you're going back on your word given with the scholarships. That's the kind of thing dishonest coaches do, and I don't want a part of it.

I don't think players getting recruited over is the same thing, fwiw. You bring in the best players you can get. But bringing in a player only to drive them off marks you as an unethical program. If you're churning your roster not just with players graduating but players getting sent off, it says more about the coaches than it does players.

In practice it’s a fine line. No one’s gonna try to get your scholarship revoked, and not that many coaches will actively say “We think you’d be better off elsewhere,” but in the modern transfer era many will truthfully tell a disfavored upperclassman they’re looking at being the 11th, 12th, 13th man on the roster and let them figure it out themselves (and then start recruiting transfers as though it has a good chance of happening). After all, in that player’s position, what difference does it make? You want to play, your coach is not planning to give you real minutes, and you’re immediately eligible elsewhere.

(03-10-2023 05:27 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-10-2023 12:38 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  IMO, if you're "clearing out" the bottom of your roster then you're going back on your word given with the scholarships. That's the kind of thing dishonest coaches do, and I don't want a part of it.

I don't think players getting recruited over is the same thing, fwiw. You bring in the best players you can get. But bringing in a player only to drive them off marks you as an unethical program. If you're churning your roster not just with players graduating but players getting sent off, it says more about the coaches than it does players.

In practice it’s a fine line. No one’s gonna try to get your scholarship revoked, and not that many coaches will actively say “We think you’d be better off elsewhere,” but in the modern transfer era many will truthfully tell a disfavored upperclassman they’re looking at being the 11th, 12th, 13th man on the roster and let them figure it out themselves (and then start recruiting transfers as though it has a good chance of happening). After all, in that player’s position, what difference does it make? You want to play, your coach is not planning to give you real minutes, and you’re immediately eligible elsewhere.

For our team, with the revolving door roster we've had, maybe not much difference. But presumably players develop relationships with each other over the course of a couple of seasons. Also, if they were actually interested in a W&M education, leaving means losing that. There's a host of reasons for not leaving even with low or no playing time.

Regardless of what talent level we had as a whole, we had 10-11 players that could make a case for playing time this year. That's a good thing and a bad thing. It's good to have players having to earn their floor time, but bad in that coaches can get too loose with substitutions and make it harder for players to figure out their roles. We had more of the latter this year. I'm not advocating for only having 8 good players on a team, but every scholarship doesn't have to be a starter, and sometimes you have players like Connor Burchfield that take a couple years to break out. If he was encouraged to leave after his freshman season, we'd have been a lesser team.

The last two seasons we have had no player average 12 ppg. That's the definition of not having a "go to" player. So, we've built up our roster with players who are complementary. In Dane's first year we had two big men who were "go to" players who could change a game by themselves. Recruiting gym rats gets you all of the complentary players, but we need Dane to find a game changer. Not sure we will get one.