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ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
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JRsec Offline
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ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
Big 10:
Gross Total Revenue: $2,097,282,913
Average Per School: $149,805,922
Total Attendance: 924,870
Average Attendance: 66,062
Adjusted for Their Recent 4 Additions:
Total Attendance: 1,148,733
Average: 63,819




SEC:
Gross Total Revenue: $2,172,457,645
Average Per School: $155,175,546
Total Attendance: 1,071,596


Average Attendance: 76,543
Adjusted for Additions:
Total: 1,255,673
Average: 78,480

If you account for the difference in the Big 10 and SEC's projected income for 2024, and account for the difference in the ACC's last reported gross revenue (2021-22) which schools would come in above those conferences' average payouts if they joined?

Big 10 estimated payout 80 million.
SEC estimated payout 75 million.
ACC payout in 2022: 39.97 million

Big 10 estimated for 2024 80 million - 39.97 million = 40.03 plus ACC revenue for 2022.

SEC estimated for 2024 75 million - 39.97 million = 35.03 plus ACC revenue for 2022

These schools would exceed the average Big 10 value if the media rights money variance is adjusted to Big 10 levels:
ACC:
1. Florida State
2. Duke (virtually a wash)

Big 12:
None

PAC 12:
None remaining. Oregon missed by $10,000,000.


These schools would exceed the average SEC revenue if the media money revenue level was adjusted to SEC levels.

ACC:
1. Florida State

Big 12:
None

PAC 12:
None

The other schools are below the adjusted average for revenue production in the Big 10 and in the SEC.


Other factors for the Big 10 to consider if making additions: New Market exceeding 5 million in population. AAU membership:
1. Miami or Florida State 22 million
2. North Carolina 11 million
Georgia Tech 11 million
4 Virginia 9 million

Other factors for the SEC: New Markets / Large Market Defense
1. Florida State and/or Miami
2. North Carolina
3. Virginia or Virginia Tech
4. Georgia Tech (maybe)
5. Kansas (possibly)


Consensus for the Big 10:
1. Florida State
2. North Carolina
3. Virginia
4. Georgia Tech
5. Duke
6. Miami

Consensus for the SEC:
1. Florida State
2. North Carolina
3. Virginia / Virginia Tech
4. Kansas
5. Miami
6. Georgia Tech
7. Possibly Clemson or Duke

*Bolded would earn a full share on strength of revenue production alone.
**Underlined would earn possibly a full share for market value plus earning potential based upon branding.


These are based upon earnings, new markets, and branding. The WSJ valuations which are strong indicators of the ability of a school to economically impact its region are not part of this.

It should be interesting to all that Florida State is the only addition which can pay its way into either conferences. Duke potentially offers the Big 10 a pro rata addition. The rest seems to come down to markets, for both the SEC and Big 10, as well as ESPN and FOX.
12-17-2023 01:20 AM
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PlayBall! Offline
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
A duplicate post from the little-read P5 only subforum? :-)
12-17-2023 08:36 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?
12-17-2023 09:10 AM
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esayem Online
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
And this is why FSU is throwing a temper tantrum, while others aren't
12-17-2023 09:27 AM
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XLance Online
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

Well there is always Texas Tech and Oklahoma State.........
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12-17-2023 09:59 AM
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orangefan Offline
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
I agree that the list of schools remaining in the ACC and B12 in which the P2 have interest is limited. The top 3 candidates for both conferences are likely UNC, UVA and FSU.

If the SEC added UNC and UVA to complete its set of southeastern flagships, I could see the B1G adding FSU and GT to create a strong southeastern presence, with GT bringing Atlanta's large TV market and strong recruiting market. If the B1G added UNC and UVA, I would see the SEC adding FSU and VT, with VT providing a presence in Virginia equal to UVA's and a strong presence in the DC TV market.

Beyond these schools, the B1G would obviously still like to add ND. If they did, I could see the B1G bringing Stanford along as a long time ND football rival, to add the SF-O-SJ TV market, and to fill in the B1G's geographic presence on the west coast.

The State of Arizona should theoretically be of interest to either conference. Unfortunately, the University of Arizona is not located in the Phoenix area. If it were, it would have a more complete resume, closely resembling that of the University of Washington.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2023 10:22 AM by orangefan.)
12-17-2023 10:19 AM
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2023 12:59 PM by JRsec.)
12-17-2023 11:53 AM
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XLance Online
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
The real question is: does ESPN want to expand the SEC beyond it's current 16 members?

In the long run, it's much more economical for ESPN to keep the SEC and ACC separated (at least until 2036). At this time ESPN is able to double dip on advertisers in the shared states. Selling two different ad packages to an advertiser to cover the same market. Plus if ESPN gets desperate for cash or just needs to downsize their holdings, they can sell off the ACC contract as a package or parse out some schools before keeping the rest.
12-17-2023 12:48 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).
12-17-2023 01:39 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.
12-17-2023 02:05 PM
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

I agree with this. Fox would want FSU, Miami, and ND.

But only FSU *may* be willing to leave before 2030.
12-17-2023 03:16 PM
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XLance Online
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RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

Interesting concept JR.
If FSU (with adequate compensation to the ACC) left for the SEC with Kansas (I still contend that Kansas is a non starter for the SEC for a multitude of reasons)

1-the Big 12 would have been broached
2-the ACC would need to add two to get to 18
a) adding two large public institutions that could increase revenue (USF, Cincinnati or a former PAC school would be among the candidates)
b) staying with smaller private schools that "fit" the Magnoliaesque profile (Rice, TCU, Tulane)
12-17-2023 03:17 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #13
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
Would the numbers go up for Cincinnati if they get picked by SEC than where they are at?
12-17-2023 03:23 PM
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SkullyMaroo Offline
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Post: #14
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 12:48 PM)XLance Wrote:  The real question is: does ESPN want to expand the SEC beyond it's current 16 members?

In the long run, it's much more economical for ESPN to keep the SEC and ACC separated (at least until 2036). At this time ESPN is able to double dip on advertisers in the shared states. Selling two different ad packages to an advertiser to cover the same market. Plus if ESPN gets desperate for cash or just needs to downsize their holdings, they can sell off the ACC contract as a package or parse out some schools before keeping the rest.

I can envision a scenario where the SEC and Big Ten both have 24 teams and they break into 4 pods of 6. From there they could rework the playoff to where each division winner gets a playoff spot or they could stage two semifinal championship games (i.e. East vs West and North vs South) and both winners get a spot in the playoff. That’s probably if/when they break off from the rest of FBS though.
12-17-2023 04:51 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #15
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

I can't argue with that logic either. But FSU + Kansas feels like a third inning two run double, while the ACC4 seems more like a walk-off grand slam to me.
12-18-2023 09:06 AM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #16
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-18-2023 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 09:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  So what would the SEC do if the B1G were to make a huge pre-emptive strike and take all six of their adds before the SEC acts?

The B1G would keep a lot of ACC rivalries intact (FSU-Miami, UNC-Virginia, UNC-Duke, Duke-Georgia Tech) and restore the Maryland-Virginia rivalry. More importantly, they would have made huge inroads into the heart of SEC territory with four high population states.

Wouldn't that possibility prompt the SEC to be the first to act to prevent that?

You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

I can't argue with that logic either. But FSU + Kansas feels like a third inning two run double, while the ACC4 seems more like a walk-off grand slam to me.

I look back at the Pac-12 situation: everyone actually *was* happy with what their league represented (high academic institutions of the West playing power conference sports), but all of those same schools went looking for a new home after USC/UCLA announced they were leaving and the dam completely broke after Washington/Oregon defected. Recall the Arizona State president’s comments after the school left for the Big 12: you can tell that he *really* didn’t want to leave for the Big 12 but felt that it was the only choice.

If it had its choice, I totally believe that UNC would prefer maximizing revenue with today’s ACC lineup forever. I don’t think UNC *wants* to go the SEC or Big Ten. The problem, though, is that FSU leaving would irreparably harm that ACC lineup to the point where it’s impossible to maximize revenue there going forward. In that scenario, it’s highly unlikely that UNC would stand pat.
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2023 09:16 AM by Frank the Tank.)
12-18-2023 09:15 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #17
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-18-2023 09:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-18-2023 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

I can't argue with that logic either. But FSU + Kansas feels like a third inning two run double, while the ACC4 seems more like a walk-off grand slam to me.

I look back at the Pac-12 situation: everyone actually *was* happy with what their league represented (high academic institutions of the West playing power conference sports), but all of those same schools went looking for a new home after USC/UCLA announced they were leaving and the dam completely broke after Washington/Oregon defected. Recall the Arizona State president’s comments after the school left for the Big 12: you can tell that he *really* didn’t want to leave for the Big 12 but felt that it was the only choice.

If it had its choice, I totally believe that UNC would prefer maximizing revenue with today’s ACC lineup forever. I don’t think UNC *wants* to go the SEC or Big Ten. The problem, though, is that FSU leaving would irreparably harm that ACC lineup to the point where it’s impossible to maximize revenue there going forward. In that scenario, it’s highly unlikely that UNC would stand pat.

I agree.
12-18-2023 09:36 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #18
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
IMO, Clemson is the #3 or #4 most valuable school to the SEC or B1G, after UNC/FSU/Virginia, probably ahead of Virginia for the SEC, behind them for the B1G.

Clemson is a brand-name, and were even before Dabo. They also draw 75k to their stadium and everything about their game-day experience says "SEC", IMO.
12-18-2023 09:48 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-18-2023 09:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-18-2023 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

I can't argue with that logic either. But FSU + Kansas feels like a third inning two run double, while the ACC4 seems more like a walk-off grand slam to me.

I look back at the Pac-12 situation: everyone actually *was* happy with what their league represented (high academic institutions of the West playing power conference sports), but all of those same schools went looking for a new home after USC/UCLA announced they were leaving and the dam completely broke after Washington/Oregon defected. Recall the Arizona State president’s comments after the school left for the Big 12: you can tell that he *really* didn’t want to leave for the Big 12 but felt that it was the only choice.

If it had its choice, I totally believe that UNC would prefer maximizing revenue with today’s ACC lineup forever. I don’t think UNC *wants* to go the SEC or Big Ten. The problem, though, is that FSU leaving would irreparably harm that ACC lineup to the point where it’s impossible to maximize revenue there going forward. In that scenario, it’s highly unlikely that UNC would stand pat.

Agree. IMO the biggest unknown with the ACC is the domino affect from someone leaving. It can be unstabilized because of the proximity and connections to seemingly stronger conferences. What keeps the ACC together is the blend of lots of championship caliber brands in football (FSU, Clemson, Miami, etc.) and basketball (UNC, Duke, Syracuse, etc.), but there are no true football blue bloods to anchor the conference.

After Maryland announced that it was leaving in November 2012, lots of schools immediately explored free agency. FSU and Clemson vetted the B12; UVa and Georgia Tech were in discussions with the B1G; and UNC and Duke may have connected with the SEC. It took until March 2013 to get the schools to re-commit to the ACC.
12-18-2023 10:57 AM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #20
RE: ACC Schools Relative to the SEC and Big 10 and By the Numbers
(12-18-2023 09:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-18-2023 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 02:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 01:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-17-2023 11:53 AM)JRsec Wrote:  You know better than this. The question is what would ESPN do? The SEC has long been prepared to expand, even at a little expense of their own, to protect their region. Kramer set up a plan for it in 1991 for exactly the circumstances of halting a Big 10 attempt to reach Southern markets.

ESPN has spent 30 years quietly building a monopoly in the Southeast and expanding into the Southwest. It wasn't all SEC, but rather a combination of all of the ACC which they built, the SEC which they used to get into the Southwest and part of the Plains, and the AAC which they used to finish out control.

Florida State, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, and Miami would be what they would want to keep. That's flagships and brands.

The cost to them would be N.C. State, Virginia Tech and Georgia Tech.

Clemson has greater value than some of those, but likely not to the Big 10

From there it comes down to a matter of reasoning for ESPN. Which combinations control the sufficient amount of any particular state to keep profits maximized?

In Florida you have a super majority of viewers of college sports by adding Florida State to Florida. You increase the majority of Florida viewers and add more reach in the state by adding Miami to Florida. Florida State in the Big 10 without Miami puts the Big 10 in with the brand that has the second most viewers, but in a region where the Big 10 doesn't have as many alumni as they would in Miami and Tampa/St.Pete.

In Georgia the dominance resides with UGa which even carries the simple majority of Atlanta with Tech only a point or two behind. The largest other alumni bases in Atlanta belong to Auburn, Alabama, Clemson and Tennessee.

The situation in North Carolina and Virginia is more obvious where 2nd state schools carry a significant % though not the majority in North Carolina and where the second state school actually carries a simple majority of viewers in Virginia.

Clemson splits South Carolina holding a slight edge on viewers in a state of 5 million.

Outside of the ACC Kansas likely holds interest for ESPN as well.

ESPN has not needed Big 10 basketball. They held rights to Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina and the rest of the ACC and SEC hoops, and about half of the Big 12's and PAC 12's rights until the PAC 12 blew up.

Figure out what is most important to ESPN to retain, and you'll figure out the rest of this realignment.

To economically halt the attempt of FOX to get into the Southeast through Florida State, ESPN should move them to the SEC, and this is something ESPN could do and should have already done, and their best opportunity to do so was in 2011 when their bigger expansion plans blew up and their crawler announced Clemson and FSU's move to the SEC. They allowed themselves to be halted to make another deal. It will be difficult now, but not impossible due to the cost of getting out of the GOR. FSU's latest efforts to wiggle free seem to be centered around getting the State of Florida to grant them indemnity against the contract the way Texas granted such to Texas Tech against the lawsuit filed by Mike Leach for his firing. One was related to a contract with a person and not with other states so I doubt this has the legs they may think it has and the venue would be in North Carolina.

North Carolina, Virginia, N.C. State, Virginia Tech, Miami and Clemson would be the best response to FSU and Duke to the Big 10. Those six effectively isolate FSU and limit the Big 10's impact. Giving slightly less than half of Atlanta would not harm either the SEC or ESPN. Duke puts the Big 10 in North Carolina, but actually strengthens their viewers in the Northeast, it doesn't impact the viewer control in that state.

FOX's play will be for both Miami and FSU. That gives them enough of the Florida market to damage ESPN's revenues there. The SEC would simply have no more of Florida than they do now, but the Big 10 would disrupt the advertising profits of the SEC in the state.

I've left Notre Dame out of the discussion. They are obviously the most valuable piece of the puzzle left for anyone, but they aren't consequential to the SEC's interests unless for some reason of their own they wanted an affiliation with the SEC.

If the SEC and Big 10 were making these moves, they would be to 20 schools. If the networks make them, they could be to 22 or 24. The SEC contract had a pro rata clause for additions which seemed rather obvious. The SEC had always been limited to actual value delivered for new members and were fine with that. Pro rata must have been for ESPN's use.

But of course, the simplest solution is just to move Florida State to the SEC and take part of what they would have spent moving more teams to defend against FSU moving to the Big 10 and give the ACC a raise.

When I asked the question, I was pretty sure the premise wouldn't hold up, because the SEC and ESPN wouldn't let it happen. But let's turn it around. If the B1G were making overtures to those schools, the schools themselves would make sure the SEC had a chance to offer before they committed to the B1G.

So, let's say the SEC/ESPN makes FSU, UNC, UVa and Miami to the SEC happen. Then what is left for the B1G that's better than standing pat at 18? All their first choices would be off the table.

From ESPN's point of view, the remaining ACC schools make a viable conference. I doubt NC State and Virginia Tech would move the needle far enough for the B1G, and IMO Clemson by itself isn't as attractive to the B1G as it would be as a partner to FSU, UNC et al. It's one thing to put USCLA on an island, but quite another to just put the Tigers on one.

I think that 4 school move by the SEC shuts the door unless the B1G wants to have a bigger west wing and a bay area presence (which I doubt).

I can't disagree with that logic, and should Vanderbilt opt not to pursue the upper tier, and doing so would be quite costly for them, then Clemson has a slot as well. But truly if UNC and UVa are happy with staying with the ACC, why not just move Florida State, consider the money you would have spent moving 4 or 6, and just give the ACC a renegotiated bump? You backfill FSU with USF and upgrade your academic standing in the process. The natural pairing for the SEC at that point is Kansas. The ACC loses its major irritant and if everyone else is happy that's security as well. The SEC will always have an opening for UVa or UNC if they needed one.

I can't argue with that logic either. But FSU + Kansas feels like a third inning two run double, while the ACC4 seems more like a walk-off grand slam to me.

I look back at the Pac-12 situation: everyone actually *was* happy with what their league represented (high academic institutions of the West playing power conference sports), but all of those same schools went looking for a new home after USC/UCLA announced they were leaving and the dam completely broke after Washington/Oregon defected. Recall the Arizona State president’s comments after the school left for the Big 12: you can tell that he *really* didn’t want to leave for the Big 12 but felt that it was the only choice.

If it had its choice, I totally believe that UNC would prefer maximizing revenue with today’s ACC lineup forever. I don’t think UNC *wants* to go the SEC or Big Ten. The problem, though, is that FSU leaving would irreparably harm that ACC lineup to the point where it’s impossible to maximize revenue there going forward. In that scenario, it’s highly unlikely that UNC would stand pat.
That is the problem in the Nutshell, The revenue is not going to be there for the ACC. Big would act first if FSU cracks the nut. and would happily add Va or NC. Either would be nuts not to fall from the tree. Question then is does SEC want anyone? If schools can find a way out to a safe landing zone (SEC/Big) They would be crazy not to jump. If UM goes I see it being Big with FSU, I don't see the SEC wanting them.
12-18-2023 10:58 AM
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