Dear ColinApocalypse,
Thanks for clearing up who is paying for construction. Sorry I had that incorrect.

(02-07-2024 03:31 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  Looks nice. The city might be pleased to have the Broncos playing right downtown in what I've always thought was a pretty nice city.

Come to think about it, it's kind of amazing that Western Michigan has maintained such a strong hockey program with the K-Wings there in town. That seems like a lot of competition for hockey dollars.

It might sound odd for an already small market but having been to both games they're a very different crowd. K-Wings have a small number of hardcore fans yes, but mostly it's an outing for families or for people to go have a few beers and enjoy themselves (nothing wrong with that, it's what minor league sports are mostly about for spectators). WMU games have a much higher proportion of fans who really follow the team closely etc. Also have to take into account that roughly 1/3 of their attendance (probably more early in the season) comes from the student body.

(02-17-2024 10:48 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  ... And, as others here have implied, with the hockey and basketball seasons being played at the same time, how does all of this get scheduled, with the city wanting various venues brought in as well.

The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

(02-19-2024 06:53 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-17-2024 10:48 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  ... And, as others here have implied, with the hockey and basketball seasons being played at the same time, how does all of this get scheduled, with the city wanting various venues brought in as well.

The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

Doesn't it take a lot of man hours to transform a hockey arena to basketball arena and vice versa? That cost would seem to add up quickly if it's being switched that frequently.

(02-09-2024 11:34 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 08:49 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 07:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Basically , Huntington Center for hockey seats 6,200 in the lower deck and 1,200 for the upper.

Mostly suites with a few rows in front of them in the upper deck. A 3k in the bottom with 3k on top, kind of like the Field house is on the endzones would be awesome for hockey. Stray pucks and all.

I was not thinking two decks, but rather a circulation mezzanine between the seating bays heading down to the glass and the seating bays heading up toward the wall.

But now that y'all mention it, a top deck above that with suites and seats in front of them would give some place for the panels outside of the mezzanine to swing down from. Then 2,000 in the lower bays, 3,000 in the upper bays and 1,000 in the upper deck.

The panels are not just about making it "look" more full, but also about not losing the crowd noise in the empty upper seats.

Sounds a lot like Duluth's (NCHC) arena. Seats around 6,750.

(02-17-2024 11:02 AM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  No idea how scheduling is going to work, but other multi-use facilities make it work.

Yeah, it's doable, but you need a paid staff to do it. And even in large venues like LCA, they usually push back start times of the later event.

But my main question was about the comment of the K-Wings playing there. If that happened, that would make it quite difficult to schedule both men's and women's basketball and Western and K-Wings hockey when they all play on nearly every Saturday, with half the games being at home.

(02-20-2024 12:09 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  

(02-09-2024 11:34 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  ... The panels are not just about making it "look" more full, but also about not losing the crowd noise in the empty upper seats.

Sounds a lot like Duluth's (NCHC) arena. Seats around 6,750.

Yes, something like that as far as the crowd noise effect.

In fact, if the "back" seats are in three tiers ... regular seats, regular seating and the suites and the seats in front of each suite (the suites probably only along one side) ... with each tier with a balcony front for advertising & bling, that's even better than the drop down panels, since the noise reflectors are built in and no decision is needed when the attendance is going to be small. Just be sure that the advertising / bling panels in front of the 2nd & suite tier are noise reflecting rather than noise absorbing.

(02-21-2024 09:59 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(02-17-2024 11:02 AM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  No idea how scheduling is going to work, but other multi-use facilities make it work.

Yeah, it's doable, but you need a paid staff to do it. And even in large venues like LCA, they usually push back start times of the later event.

But my main question was about the comment of the K-Wings playing there. If that happened, that would make it quite difficult to schedule both men's and women's basketball and Western and K-Wings hockey when they all play on nearly every Saturday, with half the games being at home.

Pretty crazy, but this article also states that a team named the Kalamazoo Galaxy, a minor league basketball team, may also play there.

https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/202...mazoo.html
3. Who will use the arena?

The new downtown arena is envisioned as the potential future home for WMU hockey, men’s basketball and women’s basketball.

County documents also show the arena will host the Kalamazoo Wings ECHL hockey team and the new Kalamazoo Galaxy minor league basketball team. Agreements still need to be finalized, however.

Besides an arena, the downtown event center would also include separate basketball and hockey practice facilities.

These new, world-class facilities will give WMU hockey an edge, said WMU hockey coach Pat Ferschweiler.

Moving hockey and basketball downtown would free up space in the current athletic buildings on campus that could be used for other sports, WMU Director of Athletics Dan Bartholomae said. It’s too soon to say if any of those buildings might be removed, he said.

(02-21-2024 11:28 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  Moving hockey and basketball downtown would free up space in the current athletic buildings on campus that could be used for other sports, WMU Director of Athletics Dan Bartholomae said. It’s too soon to say if any of those buildings might be removed, he said.[/i]

It can sometimes be difficult to find a suitable use for older arenas. In 2011, Bowling Green replaced venerable Memorial Hall (which houses Anderson Arena) with the Stroh Center in 2011. Anderson Arena, which opened in 1963, had a real "Hoosiers" vibe, including an upper deck with pull out, bleacher seating that made an unbelievable racket for big games.

Only the BGSU gynmastics team is using the place at this point. It will likely be torn down in a couple of years to make room for something else.

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/educat...0%20years.

Weirdly, an even older basketball arena still stands at BGSU. The Eppler Center, which hosted BGSU's men's basketball games from the late 1920s to the early 1960s, is now used by the BGSU College of Education and Human Development.

As this photo shows, the old gym didn't have a lot of room for seating, even when the team was qualifying for NIT and NCAA tournament appearances.

(02-21-2024 12:36 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(02-21-2024 11:28 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  Moving hockey and basketball downtown would free up space in the current athletic buildings on campus that could be used for other sports, WMU Director of Athletics Dan Bartholomae said. It’s too soon to say if any of those buildings might be removed, he said.[/i]

It can sometimes be difficult to find a suitable use for older arenas. In 2011, Bowling Green replaced venerable Memorial Hall (which houses Anderson Arena) with the Stroh Center in 2011. Anderson Arena, which opened in 1963, had a real "Hoosiers" vibe, including an upper deck with pull out, bleacher seating that made an unbelievable racket for big games.

Only the BGSU gynmastics team is using the place at this point. It will likely be torn down in a couple of years to make room for something else.

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/educat...0%20years.

Weirdly, an even older basketball arena still stands at BGSU. The Eppler Center, which hosted BGSU's men's basketball games from the late 1920s to the early 1960s, is now used by the BGSU College of Education and Human Development.

As this photo shows, the old gym didn't have a lot of room for seating, even when the team was qualifying for NIT and NCAA tournament appearances.

FWIW - I thought I heard that Anderson Arena (Memorial Hall) will soon be seeing the wrecking ball?

(02-21-2024 12:56 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(02-21-2024 12:36 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(02-21-2024 11:28 AM)nodak651 Wrote:  Moving hockey and basketball downtown would free up space in the current athletic buildings on campus that could be used for other sports, WMU Director of Athletics Dan Bartholomae said. It’s too soon to say if any of those buildings might be removed, he said.[/i]

It can sometimes be difficult to find a suitable use for older arenas. In 2011, Bowling Green replaced venerable Memorial Hall (which houses Anderson Arena) with the Stroh Center in 2011. Anderson Arena, which opened in 1963, had a real "Hoosiers" vibe, including an upper deck with pull out, bleacher seating that made an unbelievable racket for big games.

Only the BGSU gynmastics team is using the place at this point. It will likely be torn down in a couple of years to make room for something else.

https://www.wtol.com/article/news/educat...0%20years.

Weirdly, an even older basketball arena still stands at BGSU. The Eppler Center, which hosted BGSU's men's basketball games from the late 1920s to the early 1960s, is now used by the BGSU College of Education and Human Development.

As this photo shows, the old gym didn't have a lot of room for seating, even when the team was qualifying for NIT and NCAA tournament appearances.

FWIW - I thought I heard that Anderson Arena (Memorial Hall) will soon be seeing the wrecking ball?

Yes. The WTOL-TV link above provides some detail.

(02-19-2024 07:12 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 06:53 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-17-2024 10:48 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  ... And, as others here have implied, with the hockey and basketball seasons being played at the same time, how does all of this get scheduled, with the city wanting various venues brought in as well.

The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

Doesn't it take a lot of man hours to transform a hockey arena to basketball arena and vice versa? That cost would seem to add up quickly if it's being switched that frequently.

Yes, it takes a number of man hours to lay the court footing on top of the ice and then the court, and to remove it again. Whether it takes 90 minutes or all day depends on how many workers you divide those man-hours by.

It's clearly easier to do if WMU ice hockey is playing in it one weekend and the MBB/WBB games are the other weekend. You've basically got one transition each week, putting the court on top one week and taking it off the next week.

If you have MBB/WBB in alternate weeks in order to leave plenty of time to drop the puck at 7pm Saturday evening, you are doing twice as many transitions, at least (with careful scheduling, mid-week games either way can be fit into a single transition per week with just WMU, and there might be additional transitions with the extra hockey tenant).

But remember that they would not have to build any more building to host the K-Wings, and with WMU already playing hockey, the cost of the court that can be laid on top of the ice is built into the base cost, so the K-Wings rent ought to cover the cost of the extra transitions with a substantial amount left over to contribute to paying off building the Arena.

(02-22-2024 03:46 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 07:12 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 06:53 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-17-2024 10:48 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  ... And, as others here have implied, with the hockey and basketball seasons being played at the same time, how does all of this get scheduled, with the city wanting various venues brought in as well.

The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

Doesn't it take a lot of man hours to transform a hockey arena to basketball arena and vice versa? That cost would seem to add up quickly if it's being switched that frequently.

Yes, it takes a number of man hours to lay the court footing on top of the ice and then the court, and to remove it again. Whether it takes 90 minutes or all day depends on how many workers you divide those man-hours by.

It's clearly easier to do if WMU ice hockey is playing in it one weekend and the MBB/WBB games are the other weekend. You've basically got one transition each week, putting the court on top one week and taking it off the next week.

If you have MBB/WBB in alternate weeks in order to leave plenty of time to drop the puck at 7pm Saturday evening, you are doing twice as many transitions, at least (with careful scheduling, mid-week games either way can be fit into a single transition per week with just WMU, and there might be additional transitions with the extra hockey tenant).

But remember that they would not have to build any more building to host the K-Wings, and with WMU already playing hockey, the cost of the court that can be laid on top of the ice is built into the base cost, so the K-Wings rent ought to cover the cost of the extra transitions with a substantial amount left over to contribute to paying off building the Arena.

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done, I'm more saying it's an issue of cost/benefit and who pays. WMU's last men's home game on a Saturday drew only 1,729.

(02-23-2024 08:54 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(02-22-2024 03:46 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 07:12 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 06:53 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-17-2024 10:48 AM)Ken Barna Wrote:  ... And, as others here have implied, with the hockey and basketball seasons being played at the same time, how does all of this get scheduled, with the city wanting various venues brought in as well.

The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

Doesn't it take a lot of man hours to transform a hockey arena to basketball arena and vice versa? That cost would seem to add up quickly if it's being switched that frequently.

Yes, it takes a number of man hours to lay the court footing on top of the ice and then the court, and to remove it again. Whether it takes 90 minutes or all day depends on how many workers you divide those man-hours by.

It's clearly easier to do if WMU ice hockey is playing in it one weekend and the MBB/WBB games are the other weekend. You've basically got one transition each week, putting the court on top one week and taking it off the next week.

If you have MBB/WBB in alternate weeks in order to leave plenty of time to drop the puck at 7pm Saturday evening, you are doing twice as many transitions, at least (with careful scheduling, mid-week games either way can be fit into a single transition per week with just WMU, and there might be additional transitions with the extra hockey tenant).

But remember that they would not have to build any more building to host the K-Wings, and with WMU already playing hockey, the cost of the court that can be laid on top of the ice is built into the base cost, so the K-Wings rent ought to cover the cost of the extra transitions with a substantial amount left over to contribute to paying off building the Arena.

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done, I'm more saying it's an issue of cost/benefit and who pays. WMU's last men's home game on a Saturday drew only 1,729.

And I'm not talking about whether it "can be done", but about the fact that in the end, WMU doesn't have to pay as much if the K-Wings are also paying rent for their home games. The extra labor cost of the extra transitions is not going to eat up the bulk of the rent that the K-Wings would be paying, so the bulk of the rent is going to be helping to reduce the rent that WMU has to pay for the same number of games it would be playing at the facility.

(02-23-2024 07:32 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-23-2024 08:54 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(02-22-2024 03:46 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 07:12 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(02-19-2024 06:53 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The overlap would be on Saturdays. hockey plays back to back starting Friday nights, so the hockey has to play on Saturday evenings, so it seems like the weekend basketball would be on Saturday afternoons.

Doesn't it take a lot of man hours to transform a hockey arena to basketball arena and vice versa? That cost would seem to add up quickly if it's being switched that frequently.

Yes, it takes a number of man hours to lay the court footing on top of the ice and then the court, and to remove it again. Whether it takes 90 minutes or all day depends on how many workers you divide those man-hours by.

It's clearly easier to do if WMU ice hockey is playing in it one weekend and the MBB/WBB games are the other weekend. You've basically got one transition each week, putting the court on top one week and taking it off the next week.

If you have MBB/WBB in alternate weeks in order to leave plenty of time to drop the puck at 7pm Saturday evening, you are doing twice as many transitions, at least (with careful scheduling, mid-week games either way can be fit into a single transition per week with just WMU, and there might be additional transitions with the extra hockey tenant).

But remember that they would not have to build any more building to host the K-Wings, and with WMU already playing hockey, the cost of the court that can be laid on top of the ice is built into the base cost, so the K-Wings rent ought to cover the cost of the extra transitions with a substantial amount left over to contribute to paying off building the Arena.

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done, I'm more saying it's an issue of cost/benefit and who pays. WMU's last men's home game on a Saturday drew only 1,729.

And I'm not talking about whether it "can be done", but about the fact that in the end, WMU doesn't have to pay as much if the K-Wings are also paying rent for their home games. The extra labor cost of the extra transitions is not going to eat up the bulk of the rent that the K-Wings would be paying, so the bulk of the rent is going to be helping to reduce the rent that WMU has to pay for the same number of games it would be playing at the facility.

Hope so. A new arena in KZoo would be awesome.

To me, it just seems like an awful lot to add to the responsibility of a small school like WMU. Can't imagine there's many schools of that size who play that many winter sports, and outside sports and other events, in the same venue.

(02-24-2024 10:04 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  ... To me, it just seems like an awful lot to add to the responsibility of a small school like WMU. Can't imagine there's many schools of that size who play that many winter sports, and outside sports and other events, in the same venue.

It's not adding to the responsibility of WMU, it's subtracting from their responsibilities. Another anchor tenants reduces the capital cost per tenant.

It's more that not that many schools at the level of WMU are men's hockey schools that have a minor league professional hockey team in town that is in a position to, in effect, share the costs of building a ice hockey / basketball arena.

This is similar to the anchor tenants of the Staples Center ... the Lakers, the Clippers and the Sparks in basketball and the Kings in hockey ... but scaled down to 6,000 seats rather than 20,000 seats.

Dear BruceMcF,
I don't disagree with your position on responsibility, I just think there are too many teams or events going on.
If, that is the case, Western may only be able to play some of their home games in the new arena. One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned, and that is what are ticket prices, and will there be differences between hockey and basketball?

(02-24-2024 04:31 PM)Ken Barna Wrote:  Dear BruceMcF,
I don't disagree with your position on responsibility, I just think there are too many teams or events going on.

Since there is enough set-up time available to play an afternoon Saturday basketball game and a Saturday evening hockey game, then as long as the K-Hawks league is willing to not schedule the K-Hawks for weekday nights when a WMU basketball team is playing at home on a weekday night, it can accommodate two hockey teams and two basketball teams.

Quote: If, that is the case, Western may only be able to play some of their home games in the new arena.

But why would it be the case? A fifth team playing on alternate Saturdays would be a crunch. But there isn't a fifth team. WMU doesn't use a women's hockey team for the TitleIX offset for the men's hockey team.

If the MAC was a conference that did MBB/WBB joint travel partner scheduling for saving travel costs, there might be a crunch. But the MAC is mostly a bus league, so it can be more flexible than that.

Quote: One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned, and that is what are ticket prices, and will there be differences between hockey and basketball?

If WMU thinks that current ticket prices are the prices that gets the best revenue out of the fan base, why would they change ticket prices?

If they think that the prices are not the ones that gets the best revenue out of the fan base, why would they need a new arena to fix that mistake?

Hiow many MAC schools have off-campus Basketball venues?

How many share with Hockey?

(02-25-2024 07:55 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Hiow many MAC schools have off-campus Basketball venues?

How many share with Hockey?

I think every member of the MAC has an on-campus basketball arena, right?

Also, like Western Michigan, Miami and Bowling Green have separate hockey buildings.