The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

In 2009, Cincinnati got a lot of flack from national media for not having much true NFL talent on the roster.

With the benefit of hindsight, I evaluated that claim against the other top-8 teams that year.

Total NFL Players
32 - Florida
26 - Alabama
24 - Ohio State
23 - Texas
19 - Oregon
15 - Boise
14 - Cincinnati
13 - TCU

Total Pro Bowl Appearances
19 - Florida
16 - Cincinnati
15 - Texas
14 - Alabama
9 - Ohio State
4 - TCU
3 - Oregon
2 - Boise

Total Years of NFL Starters
80 - Alabama
80 - Florida
48 - Texas
37 - TCU
31 - Cincinnati
27 - Ohio State
26 - Oregon
22 - Boise

Career Approximate Value (according to Profootballreference.com, an approximate measure of value to the NFL team)
638 - Alabama
587 - Florida
410 - Texas
324 - TCU
292 - Cincinnati
255 - Ohio State
198 - Oregon
160 - Boise

Still Active in NFL
Alabama - WR Julio Jones, DB Kareem Jackson, LS Carson Tinker
Texas - K Justin Tucker, WR Marquise Goodwin
Cincinnati - the Kelce Brothers
TCU - QB Andy Dalton, DE Jerry Hughes
Ohio State - LS Jake McQuaide (pride of Elder high)
Florida - none
Oregon - none
Boise - none

Started for 5 or more years in NFL
Alabama - DB Kareem Jackson, LB Rolando McClain, RB Mark Ingram, G James Carpenter, LB Deont'a Hightower, LB Mark Barron, DT Marcell Dareus, CB Dre Kirkpatrick, WR Julio Jones
Florida - CB Jackrabbit Jenkins, C Mike Pouncey, T Marcus Gilbert, DE Carlos Dunlap, DB Joe Haden, C Maurkice Pouncey, LB Brandon Spikes
Texas - DB Earl Thomas, DT Lamarr Houston, S Kenny Vaccaro, DE Alex Okafor
Cincinnati - C Jason Kelce, DE Derek Wolfe, TE Travis Kelce
Ohio State - DT Cameron Heyward, LB Kurt Coleman
Oregon - TE Ed Dickson, DB TJ Ward, RB LeGarrette Blount
TCU - QB Andy Dalton, T Marcus Cannon, DE Jerry Hughes
Boise - RB Doug Martin


* edited to remove Alex Boone from Ohio State, who I thought was on the 2009 team because his NFL career started in 2010.

3/22 are doing a lot of heavy lifting and one of those 3 didn't even play in 2009. Using Travis Kelce, who was still a QB at that time, in any of these counts is incredibly disingenuous. To me, it was clear that there was a significant talent gap between UC and Florida and their argument still has a strong basis in fact when almost every player on the field for us didn't end up playing in the NFL or any professional ranks.

Starting QB played in 1 NFL game
Starting RB played in 30 NFL games
WR#1 played in in 19 NFL games
Kelce and Link were the only starting OLmen who played in the NFL
Only one starter on defense played in the NFL

it's basketball season. people keep talking about this year's team being like that '09 squad

Quote:Lance Stephenson 33 FR F 6-5 210 Brooklyn, NY 8 (2009) 12.3 Pts, 5.4 Reb, 2.5 Ast
Deonta Vaughn 5 SR G 6-1 190 Indianapolis, IN 11.7 Pts, 3.5 Reb, 3.5 Ast
Yancy Gates 34 SO F 6-9 260 Cincinnati, OH 31 (2008) 10.4 Pts, 5.9 Reb, 0.9 Ast
Rashad Bishop 22 JR F 6-6 220 Paterson, NJ 8.4 Pts, 4.4 Reb, 1.8 Ast
Cashmere Wright 1 FR G 6-0 178 Savannah, GA 93 (2008) 5.4 Pts, 2.0 Reb, 2.0 Ast
Dion Dixon 3 SO G 6-3 195 Chicago, IL 4.9 Pts, 2.0 Reb, 1.1 Ast
Ibrahima Thomas 32 JR F 6-11 235 5.8 Pts, 5.4 Reb, 0.3 Ast
Darnell Wilks 15 JR F 6-7 205 Nashville, TN 3.4 Pts, 1.9 Reb, 0.4 Ast
Steve Toyloy 42 SR C 6-8 255 West Palm Beach, FL 3.3 Pts, 3.3 Reb, 0.3 Ast
Jaquon Parker 44 FR G 6-3 198 Suffolk, VA 4.3 Pts, 2.8 Reb, 1.0 Ast
Larry Davis 11 JR G 6-3 185 Houston, TX 3.2 Pts, 1.4 Reb, 0.7 Ast
Anthony McClain 30 JR C 7-0 290 Trenton, NJ 58 (2007) 0.8 Pts, 1.4 Reb, 0.0 Ast
Eddie Tyree 2 JR G 5-10 175 Canal Winchester, OH 0.7 Pts, 0.0 Reb, 0.0 Ast
Alex Eppensteiner 10 FR G 6-4 190 Cincinnati, OH 0.0 Pts, 0.0 Reb, 0.3 Ast

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch.../2010.html

well?

going thru some previous seasons, connor barwin averaged 16.3 minutes a game for ak's team

IMHO the 2007 and 2008 UC FB teams were more talented and had more guys with NFL success than the 2009 team (Brent Celek, Connor Barwin, Mike Mickens, DeAngelo Smith, Haruki Nakamura, Kevin Huber, etc plus some of those guys from 2009. The 2009 team were just more comfortable in BK’s scheme and they had a ton of momentum from those prior two seasons.

Travis and Derek were not big contributors to the 2009 team, so that data is cherry picked. It wouldn't surprise me if Adrien Robinson got more snaps starts that Travis even over the next 2 years and was drafted, played 4-5 years in the NFL, 1 year prior to Travis.

(02-07-2024 06:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO the 2007 and 2008 UC FB teams were more talented and had more guys with NFL success than the 2009 team (Brent Celek, Connor Barwin, Mike Mickens, DeAngelo Smith, Haruki Nakamura, Kevin Huber, etc plus some of those guys from 2009. The 2009 team were just more comfortable in BK’s scheme and they had a ton of momentum from those prior two seasons.

2008 was the most talented overall team UC had prior to 2021 IMO and had far more of that talent actually on the field than the 2009 team.

The defense was far better and they had practically the same offense with the exception of trading Binns for Goody. I still contend that if Mickens doesn't blow out his knee he would've been a Pro Bowl caliber DB in the NFL and you had DeLo and Underwood who were NFL guys (with Aaron Webster, a player who was born too soon to fit in...seeing as how he is basically the prototypical hybrid/box safety now), along with Barwin, John Hughes, and Ricardo Matthews as NFLers on the DL (and the severely underrated Lamonte Nelms along with an All American in Terrill Byrd) not to mention a LB corps that, while not including NFL talent with the exception of Manalac's stint on Buffalo's PS, is still really only second to 2021 in on field production from that position group. The '08 team would've beaten the '09 team head to head probably 9 times out of 10, they just had far worse injury luck and a far worse backup QB situation that cost them the UConn game along with having Oklahoma on the schedule vs. an OOC schedule with the best team being an 8-5 Oregon State team. That was such a fun team too watch, with such a sad end to the season. Only line that I can remember here where you legitimately couldn't throw doubles at them, because every single guy in the rotation was a great to elite pass rusher.

(02-06-2024 10:35 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  3/22 are doing a lot of heavy lifting and one of those 3 didn't even play in 2009. Using Travis Kelce, who was still a QB at that time, in any of these counts is incredibly disingenuous. To me, it was clear that there was a significant talent gap between UC and Florida and their argument still has a strong basis in fact when almost every player on the field for us didn't end up playing in the NFL or any professional ranks.

Starting QB played in 1 NFL game
Starting RB played in 30 NFL games
WR#1 played in in 19 NFL games
Kelce and Link were the only starting OLmen who played in the NFL
Only one starter on defense played in the NFL

This is apples-to-apples. It includes guys who were freshmen on every squad.

For example, Alabama freshmen Dont'a Hightower and Dre Kirkpatrick were backups. Texas freshemen Okafor and Vaccaro were backups. Travis Kelce played just as big a role as any of them in 2009 (Kelce played in 11 games and was UC's 4th leading rusher).

Oregon's best player, LeGarrette Blount, only played 3 games (he was suspended for the season after punching a Boise player in the postgame after game 3).

I also made a mistake; the guy who I thought was Ohio State's 2nd best NFL player (Alex Boone) actually graduated in 2008. He went undrafted and didn't play in 2009 due to concerns about alcohol abuse, then came back in 2010 and had a highly productive NFL career.

(02-07-2024 10:57 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  This is apples-to-apples. It includes guys who were freshmen on every squad.

For example, Alabama freshmen Dont'a Hightower and Dre Kirkpatrick were backups. Texas freshemen Okafor and Vaccaro were backups. Travis Kelce played just as big a role as any of them in 2009 (Kelce played in 11 games and was UC's 4th leading rusher).

Sure, but the extremely small sample size skews the results.

If you want to take it further and just filter by most first team all-Pros (the best player in the NFL at their position in a given year) without researching the top 2 would almost certainly be Kelces. By that measure we'd have the more talent than any other team but I don't think anyone would argue we were the most talented team in the country.

(02-07-2024 09:53 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(02-07-2024 06:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO the 2007 and 2008 UC FB teams were more talented and had more guys with NFL success than the 2009 team (Brent Celek, Connor Barwin, Mike Mickens, DeAngelo Smith, Haruki Nakamura, Kevin Huber, etc plus some of those guys from 2009. The 2009 team were just more comfortable in BK’s scheme and they had a ton of momentum from those prior two seasons.

2008 was the most talented overall team UC had prior to 2021 IMO and had far more of that talent actually on the field than the 2009 team.

The defense was far better and they had practically the same offense with the exception of trading Binns for Goody. I still contend that if Mickens doesn't blow out his knee he would've been a Pro Bowl caliber DB in the NFL and you had DeLo and Underwood who were NFL guys (with Aaron Webster, a player who was born too soon to fit in...seeing as how he is basically the prototypical hybrid/box safety now), along with Barwin, John Hughes, and Ricardo Matthews as NFLers on the DL (and the severely underrated Lamonte Nelms along with an All American in Terrill Byrd) not to mention a LB corps that, while not including NFL talent with the exception of Manalac's stint on Buffalo's PS, is still really only second to 2021 in on field production from that position group. The '08 team would've beaten the '09 team head to head probably 9 times out of 10, they just had far worse injury luck and a far worse backup QB situation that cost them the UConn game along with having Oklahoma on the schedule vs. an OOC schedule with the best team being an 8-5 Oregon State team. That was such a fun team too watch, with such a sad end to the season. Only line that I can remember here where you legitimately couldn't throw doubles at them, because every single guy in the rotation was a great to elite pass rusher.

I was with you until this. '08 may have been more talented and were significantly better on defense, but they were also really figuring things out on offense and were really up and down. I get that injury luck was an issue, but there is something to be said for Binns/Gilyard having another year, Pead being more prominently featured... The '09 offensive line was better too. The '09 offense elite. The Bearcats ran the table in the second best conference according to Sagarin.

It would be interesting to see '08 healthy all-season v. '09, but I just don't see that as a 9 of 10 by any measure. '08 squeaked by time after time in getting to 11-2 (including against pedestrian teams like Marshall, Akron, Rutgers, Louisville, and Hawaii). They didn't just lose to UConn, they got blitzed. The talent was there and it was an incredible run (that has my favorite 3 game stretch in UC football history), but even with the talent the team was never particularly dominant.

'09 rarely felt in danger of losing (other than Pitt). They destroyed teams. Late in the season when the defense was banged up, the defense faded and games felt a little closer because they struggled to get stops, but they still kept winning. I think '09 was an incredible team and far more consistent in playing well than '08.

(02-07-2024 09:11 AM)Kyle Mack Wrote:  Travis and Derek were not big contributors to the 2009 team, so that data is cherry picked. It wouldn't surprise me if Adrien Robinson got more snaps starts that Travis even over the next 2 years and was drafted, played 4-5 years in the NFL, 1 year prior to Travis.

I'll agree that Kelce wasn't a huge contributor, although I think you're forgetting that his role as a Wildcat QB in almost every game was widely talked about at the time. In the end, he did it often enough that he was the 4th leading rusher on the team (although those were mostly in blowouts).

But Wolfe was huge on that team.

Wolfe played in every game and had the 2nd most sacks on the team and was 12th in tackles. I couldn't find data on starts or snap counts, but he is listed as the starting DT on the preseason 2-deep roster (link). His best games were in close games against Pitt and Fresno.

Wolfe didn't get much attention because he wasn't a returning starter, and the offensive unit (deservedly) got the lion's share of the glory on that team. But in hindsight, he probably should have gotten the attention.

(02-07-2024 11:20 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-07-2024 09:53 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(02-07-2024 06:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  IMHO the 2007 and 2008 UC FB teams were more talented and had more guys with NFL success than the 2009 team (Brent Celek, Connor Barwin, Mike Mickens, DeAngelo Smith, Haruki Nakamura, Kevin Huber, etc plus some of those guys from 2009. The 2009 team were just more comfortable in BK’s scheme and they had a ton of momentum from those prior two seasons.

2008 was the most talented overall team UC had prior to 2021 IMO and had far more of that talent actually on the field than the 2009 team.

The defense was far better and they had practically the same offense with the exception of trading Binns for Goody. I still contend that if Mickens doesn't blow out his knee he would've been a Pro Bowl caliber DB in the NFL and you had DeLo and Underwood who were NFL guys (with Aaron Webster, a player who was born too soon to fit in...seeing as how he is basically the prototypical hybrid/box safety now), along with Barwin, John Hughes, and Ricardo Matthews as NFLers on the DL (and the severely underrated Lamonte Nelms along with an All American in Terrill Byrd) not to mention a LB corps that, while not including NFL talent with the exception of Manalac's stint on Buffalo's PS, is still really only second to 2021 in on field production from that position group. The '08 team would've beaten the '09 team head to head probably 9 times out of 10, they just had far worse injury luck and a far worse backup QB situation that cost them the UConn game along with having Oklahoma on the schedule vs. an OOC schedule with the best team being an 8-5 Oregon State team. That was such a fun team too watch, with such a sad end to the season. Only line that I can remember here where you legitimately couldn't throw doubles at them, because every single guy in the rotation was a great to elite pass rusher.

I was with you until this. '08 may have been more talented and were significantly better on defense, but they were also really figuring things out on offense and were really up and down. I get that injury luck was an issue, but there is something to be said for Binns/Gilyard having another year, Pead being more prominently featured... The '09 offensive line was better too. The '09 offense elite. The Bearcats ran the table in the second best conference according to Sagarin.

It would be interesting to see '08 healthy all-season v. '09, but I just don't see that as a 9 of 10 by any measure. '08 squeaked by time after time in getting to 11-2 (including against pedestrian teams like Marshall, Akron, Rutgers, Louisville, and Hawaii). They didn't just lose to UConn, they got blitzed. The talent was there and it was an incredible run (that has my favorite 3 game stretch in UC football history), but even with the talent the team was never particularly dominant.

'09 rarely felt in danger of losing (other than Pitt). They destroyed teams. Late in the season when the defense was banged up, the defense faded and games felt a little closer because they struggled to get stops, but they still kept winning. I think '09 was an incredible team and far more consistent in playing well than '08.

You and I must be remembering different UConn, WVU, and Fresno State games. UConn we needed an out of body experience by Collaros to keep up with what they were doing to our defense, WVU was back and forth throughout, and if memory serves me correctly, Fresno had the ball in our red zone late down by a TD.

I'll also add, you mentioned a few games that weren't anywhere near as close as you made them out to be. The Marshall game was a blowout, so I'm not sure what that made the list, the Akron game was close in score, but UC didn't convert two 4th and Goals from the 1 yard line (I'm getting PTSD from last season just writing that), and the Rutgers game had everything to do with Chazz Anderson playing QB (that UConn game falls under the same category to me)...the defense played lights out all night there.

In truth, 9/10 is probably an overstatement, but I believe the '08 offense would've done just fine against the '09 defense, whereas the '08 defense would've given that '09 offense fits. Dominant defensive teams never look as good on box scores as teams with great offenses, but in truth, some of the games you mentioned there was no doubt we'd pull out in '08 vs. others in '09. I remember being worried about the 4th quarter against Illinois because of how bad our defense was and what might happen if we didn't score on a single drive. Pike was an elite red-zone QB in '09, which covered up A LOT of scars the backend of that defense gave that team.

(02-07-2024 01:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  You and I must be remembering different UConn, WVU, and Fresno State games. UConn we needed an out of body experience by Collaros to keep up with what they were doing to our defense, WVU was back and forth throughout, and if memory serves me correctly, Fresno had the ball in our red zone late down by a TD.

2009 UConn game UC was up 30-10 and 37 to 17 in the3 second half. I know UConn go the TD with 13 seconds left to cut it to a 2 point game, but I never was particularly nervous in that one.

2009 Fresno UC was up 14-3 early. Played with a 2-score lead for nearly the entire game. I know the final result was an 8 point game, but that one was another I always felt UC was in control.

Contrast that to 2008, UC trailed Akron 9-7 in the 3rd quarter and 15-14 in the 4th quarter. UC needed a 48 yard Jake Rogers FG (Jake struggled all year) to go up 17-15 in the 4th quarter, then held on for dear life.

Rutgers was a one score game the entire time. I always refer to it as the Kevin Huber game who had 9 punts for 418 yards and was the reason UC won the game.

Louisville (who finished 5-7) lead 10-7, 17-7, and 20-14. It was a 1-point game mid 4th quarter.

Hawaii led UC 24-10 with around the 10 minute mark in the 4th quarter.
They lead 24-20 with the ball around the 5 minute mark.

UC needed a late safety and a 69 yard TD pass from Grutza (who came in for struggling Pike) to Gilyard to win that one late.

2008 was one of those years I felt like we overachieved to get to where we were. We won so many games where we were trailing or tied, often late in the game. That just doesn't happen often and usually isn't a sign you're a dominant team.

2009 we were playing from ahead basically every game (except Pitt), often way ahead. The game control in 2009 was so much bettter than 2008.

(02-07-2024 11:10 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  

(02-07-2024 10:57 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  This is apples-to-apples. It includes guys who were freshmen on every squad.

For example, Alabama freshmen Dont'a Hightower and Dre Kirkpatrick were backups. Texas freshemen Okafor and Vaccaro were backups. Travis Kelce played just as big a role as any of them in 2009 (Kelce played in 11 games and was UC's 4th leading rusher).

Sure, but the extremely small sample size skews the results.

If you want to take it further and just filter by most first team all-Pros (the best player in the NFL at their position in a given year) without researching the top 2 would almost certainly be Kelces. By that measure we'd have the more talent than any other team but I don't think anyone would argue we were the most talented team in the country.

I don't think the analysis shows we were the most talented team.

The analysis shows that Alabama and Florida were the 2 most talented teams by a huge margin.

But that was never in doubt - people at the time thought Florida was one of the most talented teams of all time, returning almost everyone from the 2008 national title team. And Alabama was talented enough to crush them.

What was unfair were the comments saying that other P6 champions like Texas, Oregon, and Ohio State (and some even said TCU and Boise) were more talented than UC.

The analysis does not support that. In fact, UC's NFL performance shows that our talent was almost as good as Texas and was a bit better than Ohio State. And was definitely superior to Oregon, TCU, and Boise (although TCU was better than everyone at the most important position with Andy Dalton, who was a far better NFL QB than anyone in the '10 or '11 NFL draft other than Cam Newton, who sat out the 2009 season as a transfer).

(02-07-2024 11:35 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(02-07-2024 09:11 AM)Kyle Mack Wrote:  Travis and Derek were not big contributors to the 2009 team, so that data is cherry picked. It wouldn't surprise me if Adrien Robinson got more snaps starts that Travis even over the next 2 years and was drafted, played 4-5 years in the NFL, 1 year prior to Travis.

I'll agree that Kelce wasn't a huge contributor, although I think you're forgetting that his role as a Wildcat QB in almost every game was widely talked about at the time. In the end, he did it often enough that he was the 4th leading rusher on the team (although those were mostly in blowouts).

But Wolfe was huge on that team.

Wolfe played in every game and had the 2nd most sacks on the team and was 12th in tackles. I couldn't find data on starts or snap counts, but he is listed as the starting DT on the preseason 2-deep roster (link). His best games were in close games against Pitt and Fresno.

Wolfe didn't get much attention because he wasn't a returning starter, and the offensive unit (deservedly) got the lion's share of the glory on that team. But in hindsight, he probably should have gotten the attention.

Kelce had 8 rushes for 47 yards and 2 TDs down at the goal line. Caught 1 pass for 3 yards. He had a grand total of 9 plays from scrimmage. Wolfe was better than I thought although he was #12 on the team on total tackles, #5 for D linemen, and #4 for tackes for loss. Kelce was a complete non factor on the team.