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Mercyhurst to NEC
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andybible1995 Online
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Post: #21
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:22 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  Seems like odd timing if they plan on keeping football. Their football program has been struggling hard lately. With the D1 move, it makes more sense for them to drop football and focus on their other sports, particularly hockey. However, the NEC needs the football bodies. Maybe they're content being cannon fodder.

Football pays most of the bills for schools these days.

NEC football is not paying anyone's bills.

I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.
04-04-2024 11:53 AM
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jcohen42 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 11:53 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:22 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  Seems like odd timing if they plan on keeping football. Their football program has been struggling hard lately. With the D1 move, it makes more sense for them to drop football and focus on their other sports, particularly hockey. However, the NEC needs the football bodies. Maybe they're content being cannon fodder.

Football pays most of the bills for schools these days.

NEC football is not paying anyone's bills.

I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.

Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?
04-04-2024 12:02 PM
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andybible1995 Online
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Post: #23
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 12:02 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 11:53 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:22 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  Seems like odd timing if they plan on keeping football. Their football program has been struggling hard lately. With the D1 move, it makes more sense for them to drop football and focus on their other sports, particularly hockey. However, the NEC needs the football bodies. Maybe they're content being cannon fodder.

Football pays most of the bills for schools these days.

NEC football is not paying anyone's bills.

I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.

Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?

Staying in D2.
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2024 12:09 PM by andybible1995.)
04-04-2024 12:09 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 01:08 AM)Todor Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:09 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(04-03-2024 11:50 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Not a very big school. Sponsors lots of sports right now.

They have several high end D2 teams though. They'll settle in fine.

What are their stronger programs historically? I know very little about them, but I’d guess wrestling is strong being in PA.
Lacrosse
Women's Hockey
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2024 12:27 PM by TexanMark.)
04-04-2024 12:23 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 10:57 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:57 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 09:52 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  Team #364

Two word: Welfare State

You're not wrong. IMO, the perfect size for Division 1 is about 225-250 schools.


Maybe...175-200 might work too
04-04-2024 12:26 PM
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shizzle787 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 12:26 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:57 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:57 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 09:52 AM)shizzle787 Wrote:  Team #364

Two word: Welfare State

You're not wrong. IMO, the perfect size for Division 1 is about 225-250 schools.


Maybe...175-200 might work too
That would cut out too many state flagship types (Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Dakota 4, Idaho and Montana schools) that IMO should be in Division 1.
04-04-2024 12:36 PM
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jcohen42 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 12:09 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:02 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 11:53 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  Football pays most of the bills for schools these days.

NEC football is not paying anyone's bills.

I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.

Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?

Staying in D2.

So, if their options are go to the NEC (where football doesn't pay the bills) or D2 (where football doesn't pay the bills)... what was the point of your original comment?
04-04-2024 12:43 PM
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maybeimhere Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
From Wikipedia: Around 15 percent of the student body consists of student-athletes.
This is an example of modern college athletics directly boosting enrollment huh?
Anyway, good for them and the NEC.
04-04-2024 01:04 PM
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andybible1995 Online
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Post: #29
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 12:43 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:09 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:02 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 11:53 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  NEC football is not paying anyone's bills.

I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.

Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?

Staying in D2.

So, if their options are go to the NEC (where football doesn't pay the bills) or D2 (where football doesn't pay the bills)... what was the point of your original comment?

I stand by my original comment. Football pays the bills at all levels, just not like the P4.
04-04-2024 01:17 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
Another one on my list moving up.

Now, lets knock them. They made the leap when PA is a very large state, there is actually a lack of football teams close by to each other. I rather would like to see West Chester to move up, but this would do for now, and may break the ice for more D2 schools to move up. West Chester used to be a D1 program.
04-04-2024 02:31 PM
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zibby Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 10:58 AM)Mid-Major Hoops Enthusiast Wrote:  Big welcome to D1 for Mercyhurst! Nice to have another Irish mascot as well.

Mercyhurst is the Lakers. It was founded by a religious order from Ireland but no, they're the Lakers because they're right by Lake Erie.
04-04-2024 02:52 PM
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72Tiger Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
Arena is really small. 1,500.
04-04-2024 05:24 PM
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jcohen42 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 01:17 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:43 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:09 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:02 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 11:53 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  I meant in general. I'm aware that the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer Leagues are the exception to the rule.

Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?

Staying in D2.

So, if their options are go to the NEC (where football doesn't pay the bills) or D2 (where football doesn't pay the bills)... what was the point of your original comment?

I stand by my original comment. Football pays the bills at all levels, just not like the P4.

This entire conversation is you contradicting yourself. 03-banghead
04-04-2024 05:26 PM
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andybible1995 Online
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Post: #34
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 05:26 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 01:17 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:43 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:09 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:02 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  Then, what do you view as Mercyhurst's ceiling as a football program, if not the NEC?

Staying in D2.

So, if their options are go to the NEC (where football doesn't pay the bills) or D2 (where football doesn't pay the bills)... what was the point of your original comment?

I stand by my original comment. Football pays the bills at all levels, just not like the P4.

This entire conversation is you contradicting yourself. 03-banghead

How? I made my intial comment, and you came in with yours. I was simply talking about how football pays the bills for schools, and then you came in saying that doesn't happen in the NEC. What was the point of that?
04-04-2024 06:35 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 10:22 AM)jcohen42 Wrote:  Seems like odd timing if they plan on keeping football. Their football program has been struggling hard lately. With the D1 move, it makes more sense for them to drop football and focus on their other sports, particularly hockey. However, the NEC needs the football bodies. Maybe they're content being cannon fodder.

The NEC caps scholarships at 45 (D2 limit is 36), so honestly their costs probably won't increase by that much. I wouldn't be shocked if a non-zero amount of NEC teams don't even hit 45 scholarships anyways.
04-04-2024 06:52 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
Football is often profitable at higher and lower levels, it's the middle level that often loses money.

Like look at Wagner.

They offer up to 45 scholarships (for the sake of the argument lets say they offer all 45).

Their roster has 132 players on it (https://wagnerathletics.com/sports/football/roster). Even if they offer some other aid on top of the 45 scholarships, they're still getting a lot of kids paying a lot of tuition.

Wagner has 1,750 undergrads, and 39% of their student body is male. That means there are ~683 undergrad men at Wagner. They have 4 grad students on the football roster, but that leaves 128 undergrad men who play football. So just under 20% of the men are football players.

Also, they play 2 FBS games every year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Wagne...tball_team) dating back to 2019, sans the covid year. Combined those games probably make around $600-800k. I couldn't find a good source on Wagner's budget, but the only public school in the NEC, Central Connecticut, reported $2.4 million in football expenses. Wagner does generate some revenue in ticket sales, media deals, sponsorships, and donations, probably not $1.6 million's worth, but a non zero amount.

So on the whole, Wagner football probably loses around $1 million a year, but without it the school would lose 20% of its male enrollment, and about 80 of those football players pay tuition, which would more than close that gap.

You could also argue there's some positive externalities to football - gives students something to do on weekends, brings alumni back on campus, increases school spirit, and athletes tend to donate back to schools at a higher rate than non-athletes - but those are generally more subjective, and some of them are less applicable at an NEC school that averages 1,500 in attendance.
04-04-2024 07:07 PM
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jcohen42 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 06:35 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 05:26 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 01:17 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:43 PM)jcohen42 Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 12:09 PM)andybible1995 Wrote:  Staying in D2.

So, if their options are go to the NEC (where football doesn't pay the bills) or D2 (where football doesn't pay the bills)... what was the point of your original comment?

I stand by my original comment. Football pays the bills at all levels, just not like the P4.

This entire conversation is you contradicting yourself. 03-banghead

How? I made my intial comment, and you came in with yours. I was simply talking about how football pays the bills for schools, and then you came in saying that doesn't happen in the NEC. What was the point of that?

What was the point of any of this?
04-04-2024 08:07 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 07:07 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Football is often profitable at higher and lower levels, it's the middle level that often loses money.

Like look at Wagner.

They offer up to 45 scholarships (for the sake of the argument lets say they offer all 45).

Their roster has 132 players on it (https://wagnerathletics.com/sports/football/roster). Even if they offer some other aid on top of the 45 scholarships, they're still getting a lot of kids paying a lot of tuition.

Wagner has 1,750 undergrads, and 39% of their student body is male. That means there are ~683 undergrad men at Wagner. They have 4 grad students on the football roster, but that leaves 128 undergrad men who play football. So just under 20% of the men are football players.

Also, they play 2 FBS games every year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Wagne...tball_team) dating back to 2019, sans the covid year. Combined those games probably make around $600-800k. I couldn't find a good source on Wagner's budget, but the only public school in the NEC, Central Connecticut, reported $2.4 million in football expenses. Wagner does generate some revenue in ticket sales, media deals, sponsorships, and donations, probably not $1.6 million's worth, but a non zero amount.

So on the whole, Wagner football probably loses around $1 million a year, but without it the school would lose 20% of its male enrollment, and about 80 of those football players pay tuition, which would more than close that gap.

You could also argue there's some positive externalities to football - gives students something to do on weekends, brings alumni back on campus, increases school spirit, and athletes tend to donate back to schools at a higher rate than non-athletes - but those are generally more subjective, and some of them are less applicable at an NEC school that averages 1,500 in attendance.

Wagner would have to be giving at least 57 scholarships (adding up partials) to be a counter for a FBS team
04-04-2024 08:17 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Mercyhurst to NEC
(04-04-2024 08:17 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(04-04-2024 07:07 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Football is often profitable at higher and lower levels, it's the middle level that often loses money.

Like look at Wagner.

They offer up to 45 scholarships (for the sake of the argument lets say they offer all 45).

Their roster has 132 players on it (https://wagnerathletics.com/sports/football/roster). Even if they offer some other aid on top of the 45 scholarships, they're still getting a lot of kids paying a lot of tuition.

Wagner has 1,750 undergrads, and 39% of their student body is male. That means there are ~683 undergrad men at Wagner. They have 4 grad students on the football roster, but that leaves 128 undergrad men who play football. So just under 20% of the men are football players.

Also, they play 2 FBS games every year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Wagne...tball_team) dating back to 2019, sans the covid year. Combined those games probably make around $600-800k. I couldn't find a good source on Wagner's budget, but the only public school in the NEC, Central Connecticut, reported $2.4 million in football expenses. Wagner does generate some revenue in ticket sales, media deals, sponsorships, and donations, probably not $1.6 million's worth, but a non zero amount.

So on the whole, Wagner football probably loses around $1 million a year, but without it the school would lose 20% of its male enrollment, and about 80 of those football players pay tuition, which would more than close that gap.

You could also argue there's some positive externalities to football - gives students something to do on weekends, brings alumni back on campus, increases school spirit, and athletes tend to donate back to schools at a higher rate than non-athletes - but those are generally more subjective, and some of them are less applicable at an NEC school that averages 1,500 in attendance.

Wagner would have to be giving at least 57 scholarships (adding up partials) to be a counter for a FBS team

Other financial aid counts towards the scholarship counter. Wagner's listed tuition is 48k (and that's before room/board, food, etc), so if they knock $10k off of that as a "leadership" scholarship for 60 football players that would cover the remaining 12 scholarships needed to be countable.
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2024 08:31 PM by TDenverFan.)
04-04-2024 08:28 PM
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