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Russian genocide on eastern front - bullet - 04-13-2018 08:49 AM
https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=197
Illustrates the danger of fanaticism and dehumanizing your opponent. Of course, the Nazis had done much of the same to the Russians.
FDR stayed on as president too long. What he did in Yalta left us with over 40 years of Cold War with hot bits in Korea and Vietnam. They knew what the Soviets were, yet subjected all of Eastern Europe to them.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-13-2018 08:53 AM
(04-13-2018 08:49 AM)bullet Wrote: https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=197
Illustrates the danger of fanaticism and dehumanizing your opponent. Of course, the Nazis had done much of the same to the Russians.
FDR stayed on as president too long. What he did in Yalta left us with over 40 years of Cold War with hot bits in Korea and Vietnam. They knew what the Soviets were, yet subjected all of Eastern Europe to them.
I'll cut FDR some slack on this. I think the deal he made at Yalta had to be made. Churchill didn't like it, but Churchill didn't really have much leverage at that point. WWII pretty much destroyed the British and French empires, along with the German and Japanese. I'm just thankful that the Cold War stayed cold until along came Reagan, who knew how to win it.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - arkstfan - 04-13-2018 10:01 PM
Just for perspective.
The political and military leadership in the US were concerned that the US public didn't have the will to finish off Japan. The first invasion plan for Japan targeted a 1947 invasion. The concern that the public wasn't up for the war going that long led to the first invasion phase of Operation Downfall being set for November 1945.
The Operation Downfall plan included significant use poison gas attacks since the US had not signed the Geneva Protocol. The US had said we would never initiate gas or chemical warfare so the Japanese use of gas in China was the accepted pretext for using it since China was an allied nation, as much as it was a functioning nation. The initial invasion was to be supported by dropping 7 to 15 nuclear bombs.
With that level of concern over how bad fighting for Operation Downfall would be (until recently we were still using Purple Heart medals struck for the anticipated casualties of Downfall) the idea of taking on the Soviets just wasn't politically practical.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - bullet - 04-15-2018 04:39 PM
(04-13-2018 10:01 PM)arkstfan Wrote: Just for perspective.
The political and military leadership in the US were concerned that the US public didn't have the will to finish off Japan. The first invasion plan for Japan targeted a 1947 invasion. The concern that the public wasn't up for the war going that long led to the first invasion phase of Operation Downfall being set for November 1945.
The Operation Downfall plan included significant use poison gas attacks since the US had not signed the Geneva Protocol. The US had said we would never initiate gas or chemical warfare so the Japanese use of gas in China was the accepted pretext for using it since China was an allied nation, as much as it was a functioning nation. The initial invasion was to be supported by dropping 7 to 15 nuclear bombs.
With that level of concern over how bad fighting for Operation Downfall would be (until recently we were still using Purple Heart medals struck for the anticipated casualties of Downfall) the idea of taking on the Soviets just wasn't politically practical.
FDR, in failing health, basically gave them half of Europe at Yalta. He also gave them Berlin, holding back Allied troops in the west. It didn't necessarily have to be war right away, although Patton expected it.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - AdoptedMonarch - 04-15-2018 06:29 PM
What ifs in history are always fascinating.
But, as the son of an army draftee who was in boot camp in Fort Dix, NJ on Aug. 9, 1945, I've always been kind of relieved that these various alternate endgame-WW2 what ifs never became reality.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-15-2018 07:11 PM
My dad flew B-24s on the Ploesti raids. Google them if you aren’t familiar, highest casualty rates of the war. Ploesti was Hitler’s only oil refinery. If we could knock it out, the war would probably have been over. So we went after it with all we had and the Germans defended it with all they had.
He finished his missions in Europe, came home and was transitioning th B-25s for the invasion of Japan when Truman dropped the bomb. He came home, got married, and later along came me.
My mom told us the full story when my son and I took her to Hiroshima. It was a very emotional moment for us all.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - AdoptedMonarch - 04-15-2018 07:29 PM
(04-15-2018 07:11 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: My dad flew B-24s on the Ploesti raids. Google them if you aren’t familiar, highest casualty rates of the war. Ploesti was Hitler’s only oil refinery. If we could knock it out, the war would probably have been over. So we went after it with all we had and the Germans defended it with all they had.
He finished his missions in Europe, came home and was transitioning th B-25s for the invasion of Japan when Truman dropped the bomb. He came home, got married, and later along came me.
My mom told us the full story when my son and I took her to Hiroshima. It was a very emotional moment for us all.
There's a chance that your dad's airforce instructor for retraining on the B-25 was my uncle.
He was a lead flight instructor, stationed at some airfield down in Florida, for most of the duration of the war. He only finally (on his insistence, he would be sure to make certain we knew) got to fly live missions over Germany at the very end of the war.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Kaplony - 04-15-2018 07:48 PM
(04-15-2018 06:29 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: What ifs in history are always fascinating.
But, as the son of an army draftee who was in boot camp in Fort Dix, NJ on Aug. 9, 1945, I've always been kind of relieved that these various alternate endgame-WW2 what ifs never became reality.
One of my Grandfathers was most assuredly going to be used in the Japanese invasion as he was on a troopship enroute to a unit on Okinawa when Hiroshima was bombed.
My Grandfather on my Dad's side was in Europe but it was expected that his unit would be one of the ones sent from occupation duty in Germany to Japan as there wasn't much need in occupation duty for a heavy artillery unit and since they had only deployed to Europe just prior to the Battle of the Bulge. I have the journal he kept during the war and in the weeks before V-J Day their training tempo had a marked increase.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - bullet - 04-16-2018 08:23 AM
(04-15-2018 07:48 PM)Kaplony Wrote:(04-15-2018 06:29 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote: What ifs in history are always fascinating.
But, as the son of an army draftee who was in boot camp in Fort Dix, NJ on Aug. 9, 1945, I've always been kind of relieved that these various alternate endgame-WW2 what ifs never became reality.
One of my Grandfathers was most assuredly going to be used in the Japanese invasion as he was on a troopship enroute to a unit on Okinawa when Hiroshima was bombed.
My Grandfather on my Dad's side was in Europe but it was expected that his unit would be one of the ones sent from occupation duty in Germany to Japan as there wasn't much need in occupation duty for a heavy artillery unit and since they had only deployed to Europe just prior to the Battle of the Bulge. I have the journal he kept during the war and in the weeks before V-J Day their training tempo had a marked increase.
One of my grandfathers was part of the Japan occupying force. He had already served in North Africa, Italy and the south of France. My other grandfather was in Puerto Rico during the war and worked on planes.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - 49RFootballNow - 04-16-2018 09:24 AM
My uncle was a kid in WWII and died in early '45 from lack of penicillin on the home front. My grandfather, who landed in Europe in Aug '44 didn't find out till the war was over. My Grandmother's letters to him were censored, taking out any reference to his son's death. Needless to say, he was furious when he found out.
At 30, he was older than most soldiers and part of the last draft call-ups before Overlord (D-Day). Since he had several kids already he might have been left for occupation duty in Germany during the Downfall buildup and operations, but we had no guarantee of that. Since my mom was born in 1950, I've always been glad we dropped the bomb. Since either alternative (invasion or blockade) would have killed millions of more Japanese, they should be generally grateful too.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - arkstfan - 04-16-2018 12:30 PM
As one of my history professors once said.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are only remember for their horror because Operation Downfall never happened.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - CAJUNNATION - 04-16-2018 01:28 PM
2 Great Uncles in WWII.
1 was injured on D Day. Survived.
The other was in the Pacific and shot down a Zero from his ship when the gunner panicked and froze up.
First one ran a small country store later in life. He kept his bayonet on the wall in the back.
I miss them so much.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - bullet - 04-16-2018 01:40 PM
(04-16-2018 09:24 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote: My uncle was a kid in WWII and died in early '45 from lack of penicillin on the home front. My grandfather, who landed in Europe in Aug '44 didn't find out till the war was over. My Grandmother's letters to him were censored, taking out any reference to his son's death. Needless to say, he was furious when he found out.
At 30, he was older than most soldiers and part of the last draft call-ups before Overlord (D-Day). Since he had several kids already he might have been left for occupation duty in Germany during the Downfall buildup and operations, but we had no guarantee of that. Since my mom was born in 1950, I've always been glad we dropped the bomb. Since either alternative (invasion or blockade) would have killed millions of more Japanese, they should be generally grateful too.
My grandfather was in North Africa when my Father was diagnosed with polio. He didn't find out until much later, but the day they told my grandmother they didn't think my Father would make it, my grandfather had a dream that my Father was dying. (My Father, of course, not only made it, he placed in the Texas state track meet and played on a state championship football team). My grandfathers were career military, so they were much older (both in their 40s by the end of the war) and not on the front lines.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Kaplony - 04-16-2018 02:12 PM
(04-16-2018 01:28 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote: 2 Great Uncles in WWII.
1 was injured on D Day. Survived.
The other was in the Pacific and shot down a Zero from his ship when the gunner panicked and froze up.
First one ran a small country store later in life. He kept his bayonet on the wall in the back.
I miss them so much.
My Grandfather on my mother's side served occupation duty in Okinawa and left the service after he was discharged to go back to the farm.
My Grandfather on my dad's side joined the National Guard and served there until he retired, retiring as a Sgt Major. In civilian life he went to work for a utility company as a lineman and eventually retired as a "district manager at large" who was sent from place to place as a "fixer" when there was a problem from a storm, a large construction project, or whatever. His first taste of combat was during the Battle of the Bulge. With the weather grounding air power his heavy artillery unit was working triple time supporting the defense. Until the end of his life it wouldn't be surprising to find him under the bed if a thunderstorm came up in the middle of the night. As long as he was awake they didn't bother him....but let one come in when he was asleep and subconsciously he thought it was counter-battery fire and just took cover.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Tom in Lazybrook - 04-16-2018 09:19 PM
Its kind of hard for FDR to not give half of Europe to Stalin when he was already in control of it. Also, FDR was going to ask Stalin to declare war on Japan. Basically, FDR traded acquiesence of the fact that Russia was already in control of those areas in an attempt to save 100k-500k American troops lives had the Manhattan Project not proved decisive.
It was a bad result. But what was he going to do. FDR got Greece, blocked him Yugoslavia, got Vienna back, protected Finland and got half of Germany at the cost of half of Korea. All in all, I don't see what else could have been done. The only areas, controlled by non-Soviet forces that the Western allies left was Prague and Northern Korea and Southern Sakhalin Island/the Kurils.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Owl 69/70/75 - 04-16-2018 09:42 PM
I don’t really fault Roosevelt. He was old and dying. Churchill might have wanted to press things, but he didn’t have much of a country left, so his leverage was weak. I think Stalin figured Truman was a nobody who would be a pushover. But the a-bomb tested satisfactorily about the time of Potsdam, so Truman turned out to be tougher and have more leverage than Stalin might have expected. At BrettonWoods we bribed the West with trade and economic benefits in exchange for their following our lead on the Cold War. Ike and JFK and LBJ and Nixon and Ford and Carter got us through 3 decades and Reagan realized that he could turn up the pressure to a level where Gorbachev’s economy couldn’t support keeping pace, and that ended it. Only one problem. Nobody had figured out the next step after winning it. So we are still the world’s policeman, and we still have some ofthe same one-sided trade deals in place. I agree with Ross Perot (or he agreed with me, because I was saying it long before I heard it from him), in the post Cold War era, economic dominance will be more important than military dominance.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - arkstfan - 04-17-2018 12:30 PM
Short of starting WWII.2 by fighting the Soviets what leverage did the US and UK have to keep the Soviets from occupying the lands that they ended up occupying?
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - 49RFootballNow - 04-17-2018 02:46 PM
In hindsight Yalta looks like an incredible blunder by the West. Of course FDR didn't know the Atomic Bomb would be ready by Summer of '45 or if it would even work at the time, but one could argue that even with what he knew then, there was no "real" priority to get the Soviets to commit to war against Japan. There are plenty of scenarios where the Soviets don't launch Operation Autumn Storm and we might be spared a People's Republic of China and/or the Democratic Republic of Korea.
Eastern Europe had no hope of avoiding Soviet domination short of war between the West and the Soviets. Now where the Iron Curtain finally fell could have been a bit further east and eastern Germany to about the Oder-Neisse Line might have been spared along with perhaps the Czech part of Czechoslovakia and Hungary might have been on the west side too, but Stalin was going to keep wherever his boys reached by V-E Day.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Claw - 04-22-2018 01:16 AM
My father was in Hawaii in the Navy training for the invasion of Japan.
He would ride the troop landing crafts. They had new technology where planes above the beaches would transmit TV pictures of the beaches. He would operate a TV on the landing craft and tell the crew where to land.
I would not be here if not for the bomb.
RE: Russian genocide on eastern front - Love and Honor - 04-22-2018 08:27 PM
As abhorrent as the Stalin regime was, I tend to be in Owl's camp with regards to how FDR handled Yalta. In general I disagree with him on principle for some of the ways he handled the war, but he more or less got the job done and helped set us up on a course for victory. God knows what the world would be like if we had a toothless president like Buchanan in 1940.
One thing I will never forgive him for however is his bungling of the economy, which imo froze the US in an isolationist mood until Pearl Harbor and prevented any chance intervening until the world was in crisis. Had we been fully recovered a year or so before Blitzkrieg there would've still been of opposition to any involvement in Europe, but with a healthy economy you never know if FDR would've been able to convince Congress to step in before millions had to die on the battlefield or in the Holocaust...
I don't have very many military stories within my family. My grandpa on my dad's side was 4F due to a heart condition, my grandma says he always felt bad about not being able to serve (though you never know if I'd even be around today if he fought). My grandpa on my other side suffered a permanent hip injury as a boy so he spent all of the Korean War doing office work for the Army in California, later saying it was the most boring time of his life. He had an older brother I never saw much who fought in the Pacific, preventing him from continuing his baseball career in the Yankees farm system.