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+---- Thread: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? (/thread-848866.html)
Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Fighting Muskie - 04-25-2018 08:32 PM
In looking at the the schools that have moved up to FBS since 1978 the vast majority are southern schools. You have a handful of northeastern ones like UConn, UMass, Buffalo, and Akron. Out West the only move ups have been Nevada, Boise St, and a now FCS Idaho.
So what's keeping Western schools from taking the plunge? You'd think that UC Davis, Sacramento St, and Cal Poly might have given it a try or that the Montanas could have been lured up. Heck, when the WAC stretched out with Texas St and UTSA you'd of thought Lamar, Sam Houston St, or SF Austin might have given it a go.
Is it a product of the WAC dropping the ball and failing to recruit from the FCS ranks from 2005-2010? Had they gotten some of the Montana and/or California schools to bite back then maybe it wouldn't be a dead football league now.
Today the biggest impediment is the lack of a conference home and unless a whole group came up en masse right before the conclusion of the current playoff deal it's a no go. The MWC wouldn't want any of those call ups except maybe UC Davis due to academics.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Cyniclone - 04-25-2018 08:41 PM
(04-25-2018 08:32 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: In looking at the the schools that have moved up to FBS since 1978 the vast majority are southern schools. You have a handful of northeastern ones like UConn, UMass, Buffalo, and Akron. Out West the only move ups have been Nevada, Boise St, and a now FCS Idaho.
So what's keeping Western schools from taking the plunge? You'd think that UC Davis, Sacramento St, and Cal Poly might have given it a try or that the Montanas could have been lured up. Heck, when the WAC stretched out with Texas St and UTSA you'd of thought Lamar, Sam Houston St, or SF Austin might have given it a go.
Is it a product of the WAC dropping the ball and failing to recruit from the FCS ranks from 2005-2010? Had they gotten some of the Montana and/or California schools to bite back then maybe it wouldn't be a dead football league now.
Today the biggest impediment is the lack of a conference home and unless a whole group came up en masse right before the conclusion of the current playoff deal it's a no go. The MWC wouldn't want any of those call ups except maybe UC Davis due to academics.
They probably all have their reasons — finances, existing relationships with FCS schools — but no room at the inn is probably the biggest barrier to entry unless the NCAA allows call-ups to go independent from Day One like they did Liberty. And even then it's no sure thing.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - billybobby777 - 04-25-2018 08:47 PM
(04-25-2018 08:32 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: In looking at the the schools that have moved up to FBS since 1978 the vast majority are southern schools. You have a handful of northeastern ones like UConn, UMass, Buffalo, and Akron. Out West the only move ups have been Nevada, Boise St, and a now FCS Idaho.
So what's keeping Western schools from taking the plunge? You'd think that UC Davis, Sacramento St, and Cal Poly might have given it a try or that the Montanas could have been lured up. Heck, when the WAC stretched out with Texas St and UTSA you'd of thought Lamar, Sam Houston St, or SF Austin might have given it a go.
Is it a product of the WAC dropping the ball and failing to recruit from the FCS ranks from 2005-2010? Had they gotten some of the Montana and/or California schools to bite back then maybe it wouldn't be a dead football league now.
Today the biggest impediment is the lack of a conference home and unless a whole group came up en masse right before the conclusion of the current playoff deal it's a no go. The MWC wouldn't want any of those call ups except maybe UC Davis due to academics.
Population.
At one point in 1999-2001 there were 4 Western football conferences:
PAC 10
MWC
WAC
Big West
Today there are 2.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - NoDak - 04-25-2018 08:47 PM
California was in a budget crisis when the WAC FBS met its end. Building expanded stadiums and adding schollies wouldn’t have gone well. Now it’s possible.
The Montana’s didn’t want to join a league that was Texas-NMex centric. Idaho needed them, and still does.
Weber St will do what is necessary to keep up with the Montana’s.
Portland St has been a practical disaster at FCS. They did better at DII attendance wise.
The Dakotas weren’t ready facility wise or financially then, having just moved up from DII.
Southland teams like Sam Houston St and Lamar wanted FBS from the Sun Belt or WAC, but neither came about. They still willl make a move if the WAC offers. If the California teams jump now, they will follow.
UCDavis has the ability to move up several conference in a decade or two. But first they have to leave the Big West kiddie sand box.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - solohawks - 04-25-2018 08:47 PM
There aren't that many populous areas in the West as there are the East and most of those are in California which already had 7 FBS schools.
I guess you could look at big cities like Portland, Seattle, Phoenix, and Denver and wonder why they don't have a team like Houston, Charlotte, Orlando, and Memphis to name a few, but outside of Portland with Portland St, western big cities don't have big D1 public schools.No D1, no FBS
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - PicksUp - 04-25-2018 08:54 PM
How many schools in the west have actually dropped football completely in the past 25-30 years? Compare that to other parts of the country and it is clear the West Coast and states in the west just aren't as football crazy as Texas and the Deep South.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Fighting Muskie - 04-25-2018 08:59 PM
(04-25-2018 08:54 PM)PicksUp Wrote: How many schools in the west have actually dropped football completely in the past 25-30 years? Compare that to other parts of the country and it is clear the West Coast and states in the west just aren't as football crazy as Texas and the Deep South.
Very true. If Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific, and Cal St Northridge still had their teams we'd see a Big West football league still playing today--probably with NMSU, Sac St, UC Davis, Cal Poly, Idaho, and possibly others in their ranks like the Montana twins.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - billybobby777 - 04-25-2018 09:00 PM
(04-25-2018 08:54 PM)PicksUp Wrote: How many schools in the west have actually dropped football completely in the past 25-30 years? Compare that to other parts of the country and it is clear the West Coast and states in the west just aren't as football crazy as Texas and the Deep South.
In the 80’s and 90’s there was a lot of downsizing, Pacific, Fullerton, Long Beach etc. and even then, many schools in the BIG WEST were not Western:
Northern Illinois, Arkansas St, Monroe and Louisiana Lafayette were Big West schools.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Wedge - 04-25-2018 09:19 PM
(04-25-2018 08:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: If Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific, and Cal St Northridge still had their teams
The LA metro area already has two P5 programs that have each been playing football for 90 years or more. Not sure why you think there should still be three G5 programs in the same metro area with them. Are there any metro areas today that have 2 P5 and 3 G5 programs?
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Stugray2 - 04-25-2018 09:24 PM
Cost and Demographics. California is 39% Hispanic, 15% Asian, but only about 3-4% Black. Universities skew Asian. A rather high percentage of the adult college education population is either foreign born or from Midwest or Northeastern states. None of that is supportive of college football -- consider college football situation in NYC.
The Cal States are basically commuter school, SDSU the only truly significant residential population. Attendance at schools like Pacific, Long Beach and Fullerton was very low.
Today the lack of affordable land makes any football problematic. The only realistic future FBS candidate is UC Davis. But leadership and school direction are not aligned with such a move. There just are not the average middle class family residential Universities one sees in the South and Midwest, where a top 15-20% student can attend. Such schools in California are Ivy League level admission elite, and skewing more female.
In Arizona the two big State schools simply get larger and there is no oxygen for anyone else, ditto Oregon, Washington, and really Colorado. There just is nowhere for a new school to get all the right pieces together. When you start talking Idaho or Montana, or Wyoming, the lack of people and lack of money (far too few high paying jobs) pretty much ends that. Water in a way is a factor, as it limits growth to certain areas.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DavidSt - 04-25-2018 09:26 PM
A few years ago, a Long Beach State ad talking about they may have to add football, and join the MWC to stay with the big boys, or be left behind. That is one of the reasons why many schools are adding football recently. There are 5 schools in California or 6 that showed positive signs of adding.
UC-San Diego
East Bay State
Long Beach State
Fullerton State
Northridge State
UC-Irvine
CSU-Bakersfield State could add the football. Bakersfield city does have an FBS size stadium that is host to California Community Colleges football championship, high school games and the home of Bakersfield Community College football game. CSU-Bakersfield could play their football games there if they added it.
Cal Poly-Pomona, UC-Riverside, Santa Clara and UCS-San Bernardino all have students that want the schools to have football as well.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Stugray2 - 04-25-2018 09:27 PM
(04-25-2018 09:19 PM)Wedge Wrote:(04-25-2018 08:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: If Cal St Fullerton, Long Beach St, Pacific, and Cal St Northridge still had their teams
The LA metro area already has two P5 programs that have each been playing football for 90 years or more. Not sure why you think there should still be three G5 programs in the same metro area with them. Are there any metro areas today that have 2 P5 and 3 G5 programs?
The LA Metro is not like any other. The SoCal region has as many people as Texas, more than New York or Florida. All of those have several more programs.
The answer I think lies in the demographics of the populous, the price of land, and the Ivy League standards of the UC admissions.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Wedge - 04-25-2018 09:32 PM
(04-25-2018 09:27 PM)Stugray2 Wrote: The SoCal region has as many people as Texas
The LA metro area, even if you include Riverside and San Bernardino counties, is about 18 million people. Texas has more than 28 million, with several large metro areas and more land than all of California.
Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Jjoey52 - 04-25-2018 09:42 PM
The problem in California is that most people support the 4 in PAC 12 even though there are schools closer to them. People in Long Beach and Orange County will support UCLA/USC and drive past CSF and Long Beach on their way. I think the final nail was the year Fullerton went 9-2 and were passed over for a bowl that was played in Anaheim for a B1G school, Iowa I believe. They dumped their program just a few years later.
Fresno and SDSU are far removed from LA and the Bay Area which is why they have done well. San Jose is barely surviving.
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RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - jaredf29 - 04-25-2018 10:18 PM
Truth be told College football just isn’t as popular out west due to all the pro sports.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - NoDak - 04-25-2018 10:30 PM
No public California schools in the FCS or D2 ranks remain in the LA Basin or Bay Area. Outstate its a different story and should get separate consideration.
Only Cal Poly, UCDavis, Sac St, and Humboldt St remain. Sacramento has a partial football vacuum, but FCS doesn’t cut it.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - arkstfan - 04-26-2018 12:46 AM
The WAC offered Montana and Montana State multiple times. At various times they also approached Portland State, Sacramento State, and Cal-Poly and none bit on the offer.
Consider the trend of schools moving up.
First to go was Akron, then La. Tech (who was returning), then AState (also returning), Nevada and in short order you had North Texas, ULM and UAB,
Arkansas State and La Tech rejoined a long-time conference rival in Louisiana-Lafayette. ULM and North Texas followed since La.Tech and AState had ditched the Southland. UAB did it since they had a built-in landing spot.
Now if you are a fan or an administrator you track what your regional peers do. The south had five schools move up (or back) in about a 10 year period. You had FIU, WKU, and USA taking the same path as UAB, moving up because they could do so with a set landing spot.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - SoCalBobcat78 - 04-26-2018 12:49 AM
(04-25-2018 10:18 PM)jaredf29 Wrote: Truth be told College football just isn’t as popular out west due to all the pro sports.
I would agree that pro sports is a factor. For example, if you live in Houston, there is the Astros, Rockets and Texans. In LA, you have the Dodgers, Angels, Rams, Chargers, Lakers, Clippers, Kings, Ducks and two major league soccer teams. With UCLA and USC, there is enough college football in Southern California.
I think college football is popular here. There are 67 junior college football teams in California. But I think a lot of California schools looked at the amount of money being spent on football and decided it was not worth it.
The weather opens up a lot of options as well. Do you watch Long Beach State vs Cal State Fullerton or do you go to the beach? Or play a round of golf?
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - IWokeUpLikeThis - 04-26-2018 12:49 AM
Western mid-sized cities without pro sports have carved good followings (Boise, Fresno, Reno, Albuquerque). Ditto the state of Utah with 3 well supported FBS programs and no nfl.
I think it comes down to California (3) not producing as many G5 programs as Texas (7) or Ohio (7). Add 4 Cali G5 teams and there’s a third western conference with Idaho, NMSU, and the Montana’s in.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - GiveEmTheAxe - 04-26-2018 02:35 AM
I think part of the problem is that as the 4 CA schools in the Pac-12 became harder and harder to get into for students from California, the students that still seek a residential experience but aren't getting into Berkeley or UCLA are now instead going to UCSD, UCI, UC Davis and UC Santa Barbara. So the "commuter" schools, like Cal State Fullerton and Cal State Northridge, weren't able to benefit from the overflow of residential students that couldn't find homes in Pac-12 schools. And while UCI, UCSD, UCSB, and UCD have all grown tremendously (they are all AAU,) they don't have a history of big-time sports to leverage into football ambitions today. Institutionally, they look like the midwestern schools that make up the B1G, but they don't have the history to capture anyone's imagination, nor the flagship name to carry a state.
The CA schools that lost their football programs last, the "commuter" schools, aren't the ones that could have benefited from the redistribution of residential students, anyway. They were always doomed.