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+---- Thread: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? (/thread-848866.html)
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - C2__ - 05-09-2018 11:12 PM
(05-09-2018 03:35 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote: Bay Area still has ways to go to pass up Baltimore/DC let alone Chicago.
Depending upon how you look at it, the Bay Area is already even if not bigger than DC/Baltimore.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - arkstfan - 05-10-2018 12:53 AM
(05-09-2018 09:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: I agree with you about the politics of the West Coast also being a factor. CA, OR, and WA are very liberal states and liberals tend to be less interested in football than conservatives.
Virtually every NFL city votes blue. So the politics angle doesn't survive the evidence.
California, Oregon and Washington along the coasts enjoy mild climates.
Seattle's coldest month is December when the lows average 35.6 compared to Birmingham where the coldest month is January with an average low of 33.8. July average high is 90.8 in Birmingham compared to Seattle's peak heat in August when the highs average 76.3
Even with the rain, Seattle has more pleasant days than Birmingham. That makes it easier to pursue individual outdoor recreation. You live in Arkansas you have two fairly narrow windows in the spring and fall when it isn't too hot or too cold camp or hike.
The climate along the Pacific coast is conducive to outdoor activities. People interested in outdoor activities like hiking, biking, kayaking are more likely to want to relocate.
USC and UCLA share a metro with two MLB, two NBA, two NHL, two MLS and now two NFL teams. Stanford and Cal share a metro with two MLB, one NBA, one NHL, one MLS, and two (soon one) NFL.
Washington shares a metro with NFL, MLB, and a highly attended MLS and had a well supported NBA until the team was sold.
Oregon, Oregon State, and Washington State are the only Pacific coast P5's not sharing a metro with major teams.
Despite the competition USC was 18th in FBS attendance and Washington was 21st
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - billybobby777 - 05-10-2018 10:48 AM
(05-10-2018 12:53 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(05-09-2018 09:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: I agree with you about the politics of the West Coast also being a factor. CA, OR, and WA are very liberal states and liberals tend to be less interested in football than conservatives.
Virtually every NFL city votes blue. So the politics angle doesn't survive the evidence.
California, Oregon and Washington along the coasts enjoy mild climates.
Seattle's coldest month is December when the lows average 35.6 compared to Birmingham where the coldest month is January with an average low of 33.8. July average high is 90.8 in Birmingham compared to Seattle's peak heat in August when the highs average 76.3
Even with the rain, Seattle has more pleasant days than Birmingham. That makes it easier to pursue individual outdoor recreation. You live in Arkansas you have two fairly narrow windows in the spring and fall when it isn't too hot or too cold camp or hike.
The climate along the Pacific coast is conducive to outdoor activities. People interested in outdoor activities like hiking, biking, kayaking are more likely to want to relocate.
USC and UCLA share a metro with two MLB, two NBA, two NHL, two MLS and now two NFL teams. Stanford and Cal share a metro with two MLB, one NBA, one NHL, one MLS, and two (soon one) NFL.
Washington shares a metro with NFL, MLB, and a highly attended MLS and had a well supported NBA until the team was sold.
Oregon, Oregon State, and Washington State are the only Pacific coast P5's not sharing a metro with major teams.
Despite the competition USC was 18th in FBS attendance and Washington was 21st
Ok, but voting blue and liberal are 2 different things. Liberal vs Blue collar/Union.
LA, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle are all very liberal west coast cities.
Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa, Charlotte Cincinnati etc. are nothing like those cities.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DawgNBama - 05-10-2018 11:36 AM
I used to think the same thing about LA, but I have seen some stuff recently that indicates to me that the city, while it is still more liberal than a lot of other cities, has a very strong conservative minority. IMO, this does not exist with SF, Seattle, or Portland.
Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - panama - 05-10-2018 11:44 AM
Cool...and has nothing g to do with why no recent schools who have moved to FBS have been from the West.
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RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DawgNBama - 05-10-2018 12:11 PM
True. As for why there are not more FBS move-ups from the West, I believe that has more to do with $$’s than anything else. Portland State to me is a good candidate to move up from FCS, but they haven’t yet. Why?? $$’s. Why hasn’t EWU moved up?? $$’s. Why is Humboldt State, located very far from the nearest NFL team, struggling?? $$’s. The West has a lot more restrictions when it comes to business and I’d dare add construction in general than the South has. Those restrictions have cost the West a lot of $$’s, IMO.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - panama - 05-10-2018 12:45 PM
(05-10-2018 12:11 PM)DawgNBama Wrote: True. As for why there are not more FBS move-ups from the West, I believe that has more to do with $$’s than anything else. Portland State to me is a good candidate to move up from FCS, but they haven’t yet. Why?? $$’s. Why hasn’t EWU moved up?? $$’s. Why is Humboldt State, located very far from the nearest NFL team, struggling?? $$’s. The West has a lot more restrictions when it comes to business and I’d dare add construction in general than the South has. Those restrictions have cost the West a lot of $$’s, IMO.And football is a bigger deal in the South.
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RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DawgNBama - 05-11-2018 07:22 AM
(05-10-2018 12:53 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(05-09-2018 09:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: I agree with you about the politics of the West Coast also being a factor. CA, OR, and WA are very liberal states and liberals tend to be less interested in football than conservatives.
Virtually every NFL city votes blue. So the politics angle doesn't survive the evidence.
California, Oregon and Washington along the coasts enjoy mild climates.
Seattle's coldest month is December when the lows average 35.6 compared to Birmingham where the coldest month is January with an average low of 33.8. July average high is 90.8 in Birmingham compared to Seattle's peak heat in August when the highs average 76.3
Even with the rain, Seattle has more pleasant days than Birmingham. That makes it easier to pursue individual outdoor recreation. You live in Arkansas you have two fairly narrow windows in the spring and fall when it isn't too hot or too cold camp or hike.
The climate along the Pacific coast is conducive to outdoor activities. People interested in outdoor activities like hiking, biking, kayaking are more likely to want to relocate.
USC and UCLA share a metro with two MLB, two NBA, two NHL, two MLS and now two NFL teams. Stanford and Cal share a metro with two MLB, one NBA, one NHL, one MLS, and two (soon one) NFL.
Washington shares a metro with NFL, MLB, and a highly attended MLS and had a well supported NBA until the team was sold.
Oregon, Oregon State, and Washington State are the only Pacific coast P5's not sharing a metro with major teams.
Despite the competition USC was 18th in FBS attendance and Washington was 21st
Even though I am a staunch conservative, Arkstfan, you are making me long for the Pacific Northwest again. I love the scenery out there and I have family out that way too. I miss it!!!
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DavidSt - 05-11-2018 06:05 PM
I do not think it is politics. I think it is the leadership of the schools. When you hire people to run your school and the Athletic Department from schools that are private in the northeast? Than, you have those types of people who hates football. Look at Villanova? They would be a good member of the ACC, but they do not care about upgrading their football. Now, with streaming? schools like Long Beach State could stream any games online for an yearly price.That is one way they could make up the money . As it was? The Big West schools had people who hates football that they rather drop it instead of dropping the sports that actually are the money drain.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - johnbragg - 05-11-2018 07:15 PM
(05-11-2018 06:05 PM)DavidSt Wrote: I do not think it is politics. I think it is the leadership of the schools. When you hire people to run your school and the Athletic Department from schools that are private in the northeast? Than, you have those types of people who hates football.
YEah, they just hate football for no reason. Has nothing to do with market research, with peer institutions, with Title IX, with the demographics of your city, your student population and your alumni base.
Quote:Look at Villanova?
Yes, look at Villanova with their 2 national championships in 3 years in the sport their athletic department emphasizes.
Quote:They would be a good member of the ACC, but they do not care about upgrading their football.
OK, first of all, let's agree to live in the bizarro world where the ACC would take Villanova as a startup FBS program, or even a relatively new one that started in the Big East Football Conference.
Would you rather be Villanova, or Wake Forest?
Quote:Now, with streaming? schools like Long Beach State could stream any games online for an yearly price.That is one way they could make up the money . As it was?
And you'd lose a ton of money producing games for webcasts that no one would watch.
Quote:The Big West schools had people who hates football that they rather drop it instead of dropping the sports that actually are the money drain.
You can't drop the money-drain sports because of Title IX, and because of NCAA Division I regulations. The Big West schools were in a situation where they had approximately $0 dollars in real athletic revenue. So you could run an FBS athletic department entirely from university and student-fee funds, or you could run a non-football Division I athletic department on university and student fee funds.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - AZcats - 05-11-2018 09:23 PM
(05-11-2018 07:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:(05-11-2018 06:05 PM)DavidSt Wrote: I do not think it is politics. I think it is the leadership of the schools. When you hire people to run your school and the Athletic Department from schools that are private in the northeast? Than, you have those types of people who hates football.
YEah, they just hate football for no reason. Has nothing to do with market research, with peer institutions, with Title IX, with the demographics of your city, your student population and your alumni base.
Quote:Look at Villanova?
Yes, look at Villanova with their 2 national championships in 3 years in the sport their athletic department emphasizes.
Quote:They would be a good member of the ACC, but they do not care about upgrading their football.
OK, first of all, let's agree to live in the bizarro world where the ACC would take Villanova as a startup FBS program, or even a relatively new one that started in the Big East Football Conference.
Would you rather be Villanova, or Wake Forest?
Quote:Now, with streaming? schools like Long Beach State could stream any games online for an yearly price.That is one way they could make up the money . As it was?
And you'd lose a ton of money producing games for webcasts that no one would watch.
Quote:The Big West schools had people who hates football that they rather drop it instead of dropping the sports that actually are the money drain.
You can't drop the money-drain sports because of Title IX, and because of NCAA Division I regulations. The Big West schools were in a situation where they had approximately $0 dollars in real athletic revenue. So you could run an FBS athletic department entirely from university and student-fee funds, or you could run a non-football Division I athletic department on university and student fee funds.
Careful, that's a little too much reality.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - BullsFanInTX - 05-12-2018 03:29 PM
(05-10-2018 12:53 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(05-09-2018 09:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: I agree with you about the politics of the West Coast also being a factor. CA, OR, and WA are very liberal states and liberals tend to be less interested in football than conservatives.
Virtually every NFL city votes blue. So the politics angle doesn't survive the evidence.
California, Oregon and Washington along the coasts enjoy mild climates.
Seattle's coldest month is December when the lows average 35.6 compared to Birmingham where the coldest month is January with an average low of 33.8. July average high is 90.8 in Birmingham compared to Seattle's peak heat in August when the highs average 76.3
Even with the rain, Seattle has more pleasant days than Birmingham. That makes it easier to pursue individual outdoor recreation. You live in Arkansas you have two fairly narrow windows in the spring and fall when it isn't too hot or too cold camp or hike.
The climate along the Pacific coast is conducive to outdoor activities. People interested in outdoor activities like hiking, biking, kayaking are more likely to want to relocate.
USC and UCLA share a metro with two MLB, two NBA, two NHL, two MLS and now two NFL teams. Stanford and Cal share a metro with two MLB, one NBA, one NHL, one MLS, and two (soon one) NFL.
Washington shares a metro with NFL, MLB, and a highly attended MLS and had a well supported NBA until the team was sold.
Oregon, Oregon State, and Washington State are the only Pacific coast P5's not sharing a metro with major teams.
Despite the competition USC was 18th in FBS attendance and Washington was 21st
Not when including the metro areas, which make up the fan bases of every team.
For example, the city of Dallas might vote blue, however if you include the population of the entire metro area, the area might lean slightly red. Very red, the further out you go. Tarrant county, which includes Ft. Worth, is red. Trump won by 8 percentage points. And Tarrant county has 2 million residents. Pretty much every other county surrounding the metro area is red. Many by a big margin. Some with big population bases.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - SoCalBobcat78 - 05-12-2018 06:15 PM
(05-10-2018 12:11 PM)DawgNBama Wrote: True. As for why there are not more FBS move-ups from the West, I believe that has more to do with $$’s than anything else. Portland State to me is a good candidate to move up from FCS, but they haven’t yet. Why?? $$’s. Why hasn’t EWU moved up?? $$’s. Why is Humboldt State, located very far from the nearest NFL team, struggling?? $$’s. The West has a lot more restrictions when it comes to business and I’d dare add construction in general than the South has. Those restrictions have cost the West a lot of $$’s, IMO.
The alleged "restrictions" have not seemed to effect growth out west:
http://www.governing.com/topics/finance/states-top-real-gdp-growth-2017.html
The top six GDP growth states are from the west and seven of the top eight are from the west. Georgia is at #7. California has a budget surplus and if the state had a concern about more college football teams they could definitely afford to spend the money.
http://www.capradio.org/articles/2018/05/11/governor-brown-to-release-updated-california-budget-proposal/
There are plenty of football fans on the west coast, liberals and conservatives. The weather on the west coast just gives people so many other options year round. There is more than enough football on the west coast. There is no need to add more college football out west.
Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - panama - 05-12-2018 08:45 PM
How many emerging urban communities are there in the West?
How many emerging or new universities?
The growth in the south has been since 1970. How many universities in the west have doubled or tripled their enrollment since 1990?
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RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Stugray2 - 05-12-2018 11:25 PM
(05-12-2018 08:45 PM)panama Wrote: How many emerging urban communities are there in the West?
How many emerging or new universities?
The growth in the south has been since 1970. How many universities in the west have doubled or tripled their enrollment since 1990?
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The water issue comes into play here. And so does the need for port access (airport, seaport, highway hubs). That pretty much means the growth is concentrated almost solely in the bigger cities and their suburbs.
It looks very different than when I go to Texas or the South and I see a million of the medium sized towns/cities every 20 or 30 minutes of driving. You just don't see that in the parched West. The growth here is where people are already located. Look At Nevada, you see the county totals Las Vegas and Reno) http://www.us-places.com/Nevada/population-by-County.htm
This is also why you are not seeing schools pop up, there are few "new communities" for them. I suppose Las Vegas which has swelled to almost 2M people (all in a single county ... our counties out west are often the size of Rhode Island), is a logical location for a 2nd University. But more likely the State of Nevada will simply grow UNLV to 50,000 or more students.
The Water issue, along with federal and state park lands abutting cities (part of what makes the west so damn much prettier than the rest of the country, the views of the hills, deserts, forests, and mountains from your home and work), make land very difficult to obtain to build anything. Even in Portland, the Trailbalzers are going to put their G-League team in the Nike HQ campus athletic facility, because there is nowhere else in the city region they can build a decent stadium for such a minor team. Imagine what that means for colleges. If you do not already have the land, forget building a facility. (This is why the SDSU saga is so important, it is really hard to find an open patch of land you can legally build on).
So while both the South and the West added 5M people the last 7 years, where they landed looks very different. In the West it's almost all in existing major metros. in the South its only half in such metros and half in medium sized ones.
It should also be noted that distances are massive between metros, and not much between them. We have lots of amazing features like the Grand Canyon, White Sands, Monument Park, Bryce Canyon, Bonneville Salt Flats, Death Valley, Joshua Tree, and many many more National Parks and Monuments, plus vast mountain ranges between our metros. The geography is not conducive to setting up a new town 50 or 100 miles down the road. The map below illustrates the dramatic difference between the West starting even 200 miles or so east of the Rockies.
![[Image: usa-cities-at-night.jpg]](http://www.techlivewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/usa-cities-at-night.jpg)
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - DawgNBama - 05-13-2018 12:27 AM
Yep, Stugray went into great detail about the restrictions the West faces. The X factor for Las Vegas might be the establishment of a private, non-profit college/university. The state of Nevada could opt not to put a second state university in Las Vegas, but a private college/university would not be dependent on the state.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - NoDak - 05-13-2018 12:57 AM
(05-13-2018 12:27 AM)DawgNBama Wrote: Yep, Stugray went into great detail about the restrictions the West faces. The X factor for Las Vegas might be the establishment of a private, non-profit college/university. The state of Nevada could opt not to put a second state university in Las Vegas, but a private college/university would not be dependent on the state.Nevada State has already been established in the Las Vegas suburb of Henderson and has a growing enrollment of 4000. Doesn’t have athletics yet, but expect it to follow the same path of the smaller and younger UC’s and Cal States.
RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - spenser - 05-13-2018 05:38 PM
(05-13-2018 12:57 AM)NoDak Wrote:(05-13-2018 12:27 AM)DawgNBama Wrote: Yep, Stugray went into great detail about the restrictions the West faces. The X factor for Las Vegas might be the establishment of a private, non-profit college/university. The state of Nevada could opt not to put a second state university in Las Vegas, but a private college/university would not be dependent on the state.Nevada State has already been established in the Las Vegas suburb of Henderson and has a growing enrollment of 4000. Doesn’t have athletics yet, but expect it to follow the same path of the smaller and younger UC’s and Cal States.
I read something recently that said by 2025 Nevada State hopes to have Athletics at the NAIA or D3 level. Hoping that it will increase enrollment and then Athletics and Enrollment fuel each other to higher levels.
Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - Jjoey52 - 05-13-2018 10:09 PM
(05-12-2018 08:45 PM)panama Wrote: How many emerging urban communities are there in the West?
How many emerging or new universities?
The growth in the south has been since 1970. How many universities in the west have doubled or tripled their enrollment since 1990?
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Well, if you ask David St., many
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RE: Why have schools out West shied away from FBS? - UTEPDallas - 05-13-2018 11:06 PM
(05-10-2018 12:53 AM)arkstfan Wrote:(05-09-2018 09:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: I agree with you about the politics of the West Coast also being a factor. CA, OR, and WA are very liberal states and liberals tend to be less interested in football than conservatives.
Virtually every NFL city votes blue. So the politics angle doesn't survive the evidence.
California, Oregon and Washington along the coasts enjoy mild climates.
Seattle's coldest month is December when the lows average 35.6 compared to Birmingham where the coldest month is January with an average low of 33.8. July average high is 90.8 in Birmingham compared to Seattle's peak heat in August when the highs average 76.3
Even with the rain, Seattle has more pleasant days than Birmingham. That makes it easier to pursue individual outdoor recreation. You live in Arkansas you have two fairly narrow windows in the spring and fall when it isn't too hot or too cold camp or hike.
The climate along the Pacific coast is conducive to outdoor activities. People interested in outdoor activities like hiking, biking, kayaking are more likely to want to relocate.
USC and UCLA share a metro with two MLB, two NBA, two NHL, two MLS and now two NFL teams. Stanford and Cal share a metro with two MLB, one NBA, one NHL, one MLS, and two (soon one) NFL.
Washington shares a metro with NFL, MLB, and a highly attended MLS and had a well supported NBA until the team was sold.
Oregon, Oregon State, and Washington State are the only Pacific coast P5's not sharing a metro with major teams.
Despite the competition USC was 18th in FBS attendance and Washington was 21st
As a native Californian, you just perfectly summarized the culture in the West Coast. It’s not a blue or red thing, it’s just that people out West enjoy outdoor activities year round unlike people in places like Chicago and Philadelphia where they only have a few months of good weather. For those reasons, the Pac-12 will always be behind the Big Ten, SEC and Big XII in football support and unlike the ACC, none of its schools have a big brother in a better conference overshadowing them.
The only thing I have always wondered is why Arizona State hasn’t done much since they joined in 1978. When Oregon rose in football, I kept thinking that was supposed to be ASU, not the Ducks. UCLA is the other one. I see Utah still hungry for more success, they know how it is being outside the cartel.