(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?

(06-29-2018 11:37 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?

That would be an excellent set up. But its way too practicle and makes too much sense to become reality. The other problem is convincing ND to play a sith game. Doesnt matter that its Navy and they already play Navy anyway. Its the whole idea of ND feeling threatened that a sixth game would take away from their "independence."

(06-29-2018 12:00 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 11:37 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?

That would be an excellent set up. But its way too practicle and makes too much sense to become reality. The other problem is convincing ND to play a sith game. Doesnt matter that its Navy and they already play Navy anyway. Its the whole idea of ND feeling threatened that a sixth game would take away from their "independence."

Nothing really changes for ND. They still play 5 ACC + Navy + USC + Stanford + 4 more of their choosing. If anything, it makes their schedule identical to other ACC teams (8 fixed, 4 ooc).

(06-29-2018 12:26 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 12:00 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 11:37 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?

That would be an excellent set up. But its way too practicle and makes too much sense to become reality. The other problem is convincing ND to play a sith game. Doesnt matter that its Navy and they already play Navy anyway. Its the whole idea of ND feeling threatened that a sixth game would take away from their "independence."

Nothing really changes for ND. They still play 5 ACC + Navy + USC + Stanford + 4 more of their choosing. If anything, it makes their schedule identical to other ACC teams (8 fixed, 4 ooc).

There is no current plausible scenario for ACC expansion. The only way that happens is if something happens externally that would offer the ACC an opportunity it can't pass on. That would have to be something completely off our radar at this point, like some non-P5 school getting very strong.

BTW, you could make the argument that for reasons of history the ACC ought to offer membership to a HBUC. No, I don't think that's going to happen. No HBUC school is anywhere near P5 ready and they'd probably want to stick with their traditional rivals anyway. If anything, I'm just suggesting just how far off our radar something would have to be for the ACC to add another school. If West Virginia was ever going to happen, it would have already happened.

(06-29-2018 12:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 12:26 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 12:00 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 11:37 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?

That would be an excellent set up. But its way too practicle and makes too much sense to become reality. The other problem is convincing ND to play a sith game. Doesnt matter that its Navy and they already play Navy anyway. Its the whole idea of ND feeling threatened that a sixth game would take away from their "independence."

Nothing really changes for ND. They still play 5 ACC + Navy + USC + Stanford + 4 more of their choosing. If anything, it makes their schedule identical to other ACC teams (8 fixed, 4 ooc).

There is no current plausible scenario for ACC expansion. The only way that happens is if something happens externally that would offer the ACC an opportunity it can't pass on. That would have to be something completely off our radar at this point, like some non-P5 school getting very strong.

BTW, you could make the argument that for reasons of history the ACC ought to offer membership to a HBUC. No, I don't think that's going to happen. No HBUC school is anywhere near P5 ready and they'd probably want to stick with their traditional rivals anyway. If anything, I'm just suggesting just how far off our radar something would have to be for the ACC to add another school. If West Virginia was ever going to happen, it would have already happened.

I just don't think West Virginia has the votes to get in. And without West Virginia, Navy makes no sense IMO.

Notre Dame isn't relevant to this proposal. It either happens or it doesn't, and either way it doesn't change anything with respect to either the Irish or to the ACC.

If, somehow, you could get WV and Navy, what you would have to pay Navy would be at least as much as they will get in the AAC's next contract (not its current one) and they would have to get to keep whatever they get from the Army Navy game. IMO, that would still be worth it to the ACC, but I put the chances of it happening at less than 10%.

(06-29-2018 01:14 PM)XLance Wrote:  Great map.

The West Virginia ship sailed when Pitt and Syracuse were invited.

These options were on the table in 2013:
Take as much of NYC as possible....'Cuse and Rutgers
As much football fan base and football history.....Pitt and WVU
Secure the NE with basketball and hope football "grows"...Syracuse and UConn
Add the two largest football fan bases among BE schools that are not too far below ACC standards...Pitt and Rutgers
Take the biggest name in basketball in the NE and the best football history in the BE...Syracuse and Pitt
Taking the largest football fan base in the BE and almost the second largest WVU and Rutgers

I think Navy, which would be a great choice, will be offered and will pass.

Then again referring to your map:
The most likely choice is Cincinnati.
Ohio produces a lot of talent. Ohio State is the only P5 school in a very large state (and could stand some competition).
UC in the ACC would have nearby rivals, UofL, Pitt and Notre Dame and fill in the "mid-western" gap.
Cincinnati gets the nod over WVU because: Ohio location (population, new market, sits on the borders of Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky) and no negative fan perception but still offering good football and basketball product.

(06-29-2018 02:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ...I still prefer Tennessee. And if your reply is that's not realistic, then let's address WHY that's not realistic instead.

(06-29-2018 02:44 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ...I still prefer Tennessee. And if your reply is that's not realistic, then let's address WHY that's not realistic instead.

Tennessee: $145,653,191
ACC Avg. : $94,812,314
Difference : $50,840,877

(06-29-2018 02:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:44 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ...I still prefer Tennessee. And if your reply is that's not realistic, then let's address WHY that's not realistic instead.

Tennessee: $145,653,191
ACC Avg. : $94,812,314
Difference : $50,840,877

Tennessee is easier to move around than you think, but not for the reasons or in the ways you think. Tennessee and the ACC are already financially "in the same house" in the area it matters most right now.

(06-29-2018 02:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 01:14 PM)XLance Wrote:  Great map.

The West Virginia ship sailed when Pitt and Syracuse were invited.

These options were on the table in 2013:
Take as much of NYC as possible....'Cuse and Rutgers
As much football fan base and football history.....Pitt and WVU
Secure the NE with basketball and hope football "grows"...Syracuse and UConn
Add the two largest football fan bases among BE schools that are not too far below ACC standards...Pitt and Rutgers
Take the biggest name in basketball in the NE and the best football history in the BE...Syracuse and Pitt
Taking the largest football fan base in the BE and almost the second largest WVU and Rutgers

I think Navy, which would be a great choice, will be offered and will pass.

Then again referring to your map:
The most likely choice is Cincinnati.
Ohio produces a lot of talent. Ohio State is the only P5 school in a very large state (and could stand some competition).
UC in the ACC would have nearby rivals, UofL, Pitt and Notre Dame and fill in the "mid-western" gap.
Cincinnati gets the nod over WVU because: Ohio location (population, new market, sits on the borders of Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky) and no negative fan perception but still offering good football and basketball product.

Cincinnati, even with the ACC's current media payout, would jump Wake and B.C. and possibly Tech in total revenue. They are the most likely viable candidate that could add to the ACC's bottom line that is still dangling in space. Also I was thinking that perhaps you should offer another school a Football only membership to fill in the N.D. space. Whether that is a school like T.C.U., Temple, Tulane, or some other school that might put the ACC into another top market might be the play. If minor sports aren't involved the travel is less of an issue.

(06-29-2018 04:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:44 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ...I still prefer Tennessee. And if your reply is that's not realistic, then let's address WHY that's not realistic instead.

Tennessee: $145,653,191
ACC Avg. : $94,812,314
Difference : $50,840,877

Tennessee is easier to move around than you think, but not for the reasons or in the ways you think. Tennessee and the ACC are already financially "in the same house" in the area it matters most right now.

You dream sir. Academics and research are independent items and as of yet Tennessee is not in the queue for the AAU invitation. Their alumni base which provides them with their largest in state contributions are solidly SEC. So add another 20 years for them to die out before they would seriously be able to move anywhere without losing the vast majority of their donations. And even then they might show more interest in a more Northerly direction if they showed interest in leaving at all.

(06-29-2018 04:26 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 04:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:44 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 02:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ...I still prefer Tennessee. And if your reply is that's not realistic, then let's address WHY that's not realistic instead.

Tennessee: $145,653,191
ACC Avg. : $94,812,314
Difference : $50,840,877

Tennessee is easier to move around than you think, but not for the reasons or in the ways you think. Tennessee and the ACC are already financially "in the same house" in the area it matters most right now.

You dream sir. Academics and research are independent items and as of yet Tennessee is not in the queue for the AAU invitation. Their alumni base which provides them with their largest in state contributions are solidly SEC. So add another 20 years for them to die out before they would seriously be able to move anywhere without losing the vast majority of their donations. And even then they might show more interest in a more Northerly direction if they showed interest in leaving at all.

Who said it was a binary choice?

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk

(06-29-2018 04:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I know there has been talk of a singular direction. How do you know they aren't just garnering information the way Clemson did in '91? Do you think we are not aware? They would surely die in relevance and the ability to attract students in such a move as Nebraska has. It would be a brand destroying move. And what's more the administration that has thought about this has already began to crumble.

As I said, "You Dream Sir!", as do those who in colder climes lay such plots.

(06-29-2018 06:12 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-29-2018 04:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I know there has been talk of a singular direction. How do you know they aren't just garnering information the way Clemson did in '91? Do you think we are not aware? They would surely die in relevance and the ability to attract students in such a move as Nebraska has. It would be a brand destroying move. And what's more the administration that has thought about this has already began to crumble.

As I said, "You Dream Sir!", as do those who in colder climes lay such plots.

There's money to be made in the ACC South playing the SEC East. There's money to be made in the SEC West playing the Big 12 South. And more than just a dozen games a year like you get if you add up all the rivalry games and bowl games and kickoff games and such.

Conveniently ESPN owns almost everything there (functionally enough to proceed as is anyway). Everybody cares way less about what their conference is than playing the teams they want to play. And the dirty lie baked into any conference of any size is that quite a lot of the teams don't really do much for each other. And as a corollary every conference that has expanded (with the possible exception of the Pac-12) has done so against what one would deem to be its traditional self interests such as history, tradition, geography, fan interest, etc. Florida State fans can name lots of teams they'd want to play before Syracuse. Alabama fans can name lots of teams they'd want to play before Missouri. Texas fans can name lots of teams they'd want to play before West Virginia.

So let's concede that there are actually non-trivial structural inefficiencies in the current "claw out your TV market regional fiefdom and see how much you can sock it to cable subscribers" model. Fuhrer Mickey in his relentless pursuit of coin will eventually look at horizontal integration. They're already vertically integrating by having ownership of the conference TV productions and channels. And Fuhrer Mickey can *easily* move assets around since Fuhrer Mickey owns near all the pieces on the playing board for those conferences.

My worldview isn't one of conferences in charge. It's ones where conferences are very much subservient to the whims of the biggest checks and whatever repercussions associated from the interests of those writing those checks might be. Unless you see facility and staff and spending caps coming in from the NCAA (LOLOLOLOLOLOL) then this thing is just going to keep redlining.

(06-29-2018 10:56 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Most ACC expansion ideas begin with words like "add Notre Dame for football" or "add Texas as a partial" or "get Maryland and South Carolina back" -- all things which are unlikely now and may never happen!

So, just as a change of pace, I thought "what if we tried to stay grounded in reality"? (I know, right!)

Here, then, is my proposal.
* Notre Dame (non-football)/Navy (football-only; split one share between them)
* West Virginia (full member)

16 teams for football; 16 teams for all other sports as well.



That only leaves the question of divisions, for which I present 2 possibilities:

1) slot Navy in the Atlantic, WVU in the Coastal
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-realistic-acc-expansion-plan.html

2) redo divisions, with both Navy and WVU in a new "East" division
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/06/rx-best-plausible-acc-sweet-16.html

Atlantic / Eastern
Clemson / West Virginia
Georgia Tech / Pitt
Florida State / Miami
Virginia / Virginia Tech
Duke / Syracuse
NC State / Boston College
N Carolina / Louisville
Wake Forest / Navy

That gives us WVU/Pitt, WVU/VT, WVU/Cuse, WVU/BC, WVU/Louisville and WVU/Miami. It also gives us Navy/Wake (or Duke), FSU/GT, NC State/Duke, UNC/Wake, Louisville/VT, Louisville/Pitt and BC/Pitt. The only worthwhile games you'd lose are Louisville vs. Clemson and FSU - but those are replaced by Miami and VT, and augmented by Louisville/WVU.

Sure, Navy is less valuable, but (a) you'd only pay them the other half of Notre Dame's share, and (b) in return, you'd get rights a 6th game with Notre Dame - namely, the Navy game every year. The ACC would also get Navy/Air Force and, potentially, Army/Navy.

The most profitable expansion w/o adding a Texas division, IMO. Thoughts?