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Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-03-2018 04:44 PM
Let me start by stating that I have no insider information in the Clemson Administration or in their athletic department. The opinions expressed in this thread are mine and I think fairly represent the opinions of those Clemson fans that I normally interact with. I am a Clemson graduate and a die hard Clemson fan.
There has been a heated discussion (started by Hokie Mark and joined by JR and others) about revenue discrepancy and what this may mean to various ACC schools. Here is my take on some of this for Clemson (in no order of importance).
Clemson and the SEC
1. First, as much as some Clemson fans may yearn for the SEC, the simple fact is this is a moot point at this time due to the GOR and no offer from the SEC.
2. From a football perspective, Clemson would be a perfect fit in the SEC.
3. Would it be harder for Clemson to reach it's desired football goals in the SEC - yes. However, I would argue that at least for the past several years (sans Georgia last year) that the SEC East (where Clemson would most likely reside) would have been just as manageable for Clemson as the ACC.
Clemson and the ACC
1. Long term, has the ACC been good for Clemson? Yes.
2. Has Clemson been able to reach it's football goals from within the ACC thus far? Yes. Is this sustainable? That is the question.
3. I believe that all things being equal, the Clemson Administration, Clemson athletic department, and the Clemson football coaching staff would prefer to stay in the ACC while many but certainly not all fans would like to move to the SEC. However, all things are definitely "not equal" in todays athletic landscape!
Now for the fun part ..... as long as the facilities and the coaching salary "war" continues and continues to escalate, then the revenue discrepancy between the ACC and SEC most certainly matters. Clemson has done a very good job of fund raising and getting the best bang for their buck from the revenue that they have generated/received BUT at some point, I believe the discrepancy between SEC and ACC revenues (Clemson vs South Carolina and Georgia in particular) is going to negatively impact Clemson's ability to compete at a national championship level in football. At this point, Clemson will have a very tough decision to make - sacrifice their national championship football aspirations and continue in the ACC where they have a long history and are a charter member OR lobby like hell and pray that the SEC comes calling.
Some points from the HM and JR thread:
- Enrollment affects revenue as it affects the total number of potential donors. Some Fall 2017 enrollment numbers (graduate & undergraduate) for comparison (from individual school websites): Clemson - 20,200 (this has doubled since I was in school in the 70's); South Carolina - 34,700; UGA - 37,600; Alabama - 38,500; and just for kicks Ohio State- 59,800. Clemson is at a decided disadvantage regardless of conference affiliation from this perspective.
- Stadium size and attendance affects revenue due to gate receipts. In the ACC Clemson is tops in attendance and has either the largest or second largest stadium at 81,500. They would rank middle of the road in attendance and stadium size in the SEC. Clemson's administration currently has no plans to expand Memorial Stadium and at this point there is no need to, however, I am a firm believer that should Clemson join the SEC, they could easily expand to 90,000 - 95,000 and would be able to fill the stadium for most SEC games (there would be little to no chance to fill a 90K - 95K stadium against any ACC teams except for FSU and possibly Va Tech). Let's say attendance rose by an additional 10K for 4 games at $75 per ticket - that is a nice little $3 million dollar boost to the annual revenue stream!
So in summary, Clemson is doing fine in the ACC for now - how long this lasts is anyone guess.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Hokie Mark - 07-03-2018 08:39 PM
Excellent post, IR4CU! It's been awhile, but that was worth the wait...
I feel like you - I want the ACC to succeed because I would prefer that VT stay in it. These are the teams I want to see the Hokies play, for the most part. However, the ACC needs to do something about that revenue gap, and soon!
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - georgia_tech_swagger - 07-04-2018 12:30 AM
If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - JRsec - 07-04-2018 12:49 AM
(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
There are two parts to the equation that yields a full stadium.
1. You have to have a consistently above average product and intermittent conference championships aids this greatly.
2. You have to have a home schedule that your people are jazzed to see. Rivals are also key to this.
Consistently keep those two factors working for you and you will succeed in ticket sales and donations for good tickets. Competition for available seating fills the stadium.
But playing schools that don't excite your fans is a killer. Get Auburn back on the Tech OOC schedule regularly. Make sure you are in a division with Clemson and Florida State. And keep Dawgs coming every other year and the ticket book will be exciting to Tech alums. Then winning at least 70% of your games will do the rest.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - georgia_tech_swagger - 07-04-2018 04:41 AM
(07-04-2018 12:49 AM)JRsec Wrote:(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
There are two parts to the equation that yields a full stadium.
1. You have to have a consistently above average product and intermittent conference championships aids this greatly.
2. You have to have a home schedule that your people are jazzed to see. Rivals are also key to this.
Consistently keep those two factors working for you and you will succeed in ticket sales and donations for good tickets. Competition for available seating fills the stadium.
But playing schools that don't excite your fans is a killer. Get Auburn back on the Tech OOC schedule regularly. Make sure you are in a division with Clemson and Florida State. And keep Dawgs coming every other year and the ticket book will be exciting to Tech alums. Then winning at least 70% of your games will do the rest.
No, I mean as in GT is a draw for Clemson and the inverse applies too. GT usually sells out their visitor allotment to Memorial Stadium. Clemson usually sells out their visitor allotment to BDS. Even a 90-95k Memorial Stadium would still be sold out on the strength of away tickets if GT fields a decent team.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-04-2018 10:15 AM
(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
I think Ga Tech would sell out a 90K - 95K Memorial Stadium if they were having an exceptional season but I don’t believe this would be the norm. Based on the attendance figures provided by Clemson for the last 5 Ga Tech games played at Clemson, the average attendance was 79,235 - close to a sell out (81,500) but not quite there. Just don’t see this game drawing 90K to 95K unless both teams were ranked fairly high. Ga Tech is one of our historical rivals and does generally draw good crowds but they just don’t normally generate the excitement and anticipation that a home game with FSU does (or UGA, Auburn, Texas A&M, South Carolina).
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - XLance - 07-04-2018 10:39 AM
(07-04-2018 10:15 AM)IR4CU Wrote:(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
I think Ga Tech would sell out a 90K - 95K Memorial Stadium if they were having an exceptional season but I don’t believe this would be the norm. Based on the attendance figures provided by Clemson for the last 5 Ga Tech games played at Clemson, the average attendance was 79,235 - close to a sell out (81,500) but not quite there. Just don’t see this game drawing 90K to 95K unless both teams were ranked fairly high. Ga Tech is one of our historical rivals and does generally draw good crowds but they just don’t normally generate the excitement and anticipation that a home game with FSU does (or UGA, Auburn, Texas A&M, South Carolina).
I find it odd that you would include Texas A&M in your list. A school Clemson has only played 4 times (the last meeting in 2005, Clemson's only win ((a 25-24 victory)) ).
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Kaplony - 07-04-2018 11:09 AM
(07-04-2018 10:15 AM)IR4CU Wrote:(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
I think Ga Tech would sell out a 90K - 95K Memorial Stadium if they were having an exceptional season but I don’t believe this would be the norm. Based on the attendance figures provided by Clemson for the last 5 Ga Tech games played at Clemson, the average attendance was 79,235 - close to a sell out (81,500) but not quite there. Just don’t see this game drawing 90K to 95K unless both teams were ranked fairly high. Ga Tech is one of our historical rivals and does generally draw good crowds but they just don’t normally generate the excitement and anticipation that a home game with FSU does (or UGA, Auburn, Texas A&M, South Carolina).
To be fair, the last five GT home games includes a Thursday night game where attendance was only 75k (2013), a game played in the rain less than a week after a significant portion of the fan base dealt with massive flooding (2015), and last year's monsoon game.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Hallcity - 07-04-2018 11:27 AM
Sorry to interrupt your summer daydreams but nobody is going anywhere. All ACC schools are bound by the grant of rights until 2036. The notion that a school can get out of its grant of rights is fantasy.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-04-2018 02:28 PM
(07-04-2018 11:27 AM)Hallcity Wrote: Sorry to interrupt your summer daydreams but nobody is going anywhere. All ACC schools are bound by the grant of rights until 2036. The notion that a school can get out of its grant of rights is fantasy.
Agreed. I did say that a move to the SEC was a moot point due to the GOR. However, from a football fans perspective, I would much rather play in the SEC. Is this a dream? Absolutely. Can Clemson be successful and achieve its football goals playing in the ACC? The answer today is an obvious and resounding yes! Unfortunately “today” will end and the question remains if this will hold true “tomorrow” - as the old adage goes, only time will tell and no one knows today what the athletic/conference landscape will look like in 2036.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-04-2018 02:38 PM
(07-04-2018 10:39 AM)XLance Wrote:(07-04-2018 10:15 AM)IR4CU Wrote:(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
I think Ga Tech would sell out a 90K - 95K Memorial Stadium if they were having an exceptional season but I don’t believe this would be the norm. Based on the attendance figures provided by Clemson for the last 5 Ga Tech games played at Clemson, the average attendance was 79,235 - close to a sell out (81,500) but not quite there. Just don’t see this game drawing 90K to 95K unless both teams were ranked fairly high. Ga Tech is one of our historical rivals and does generally draw good crowds but they just don’t normally generate the excitement and anticipation that a home game with FSU does (or UGA, Auburn, Texas A&M, South Carolina).
I find it odd that you would include Texas A&M in your list. A school Clemson has only played 4 times (the last meeting in 2005, Clemson's only win ((a 25-24 victory)) ).
I did not intend to imply that A&M was a rival or anything of that nature. Just trying to point out the difference in fan anticipation / excitement for a game like this as opposed to Ga Tech. Clemson fans I associate with are already talking about and anticipating A&M’s return to Death Valley in 2019. Some of this of course is due to the fact that we play Ga Tech every year so A&M is fresh but I would be willing to bet that if we played A&M on an annual basis, they would still generate more fan excitement and anticipation than Ga Tech. I am not trying to slam GT as they are one of our more interesting games each year and I always attend their games at Clemson and have attended several Clemson games at GT.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-04-2018 02:49 PM
(07-04-2018 11:09 AM)Kaplony Wrote:(07-04-2018 10:15 AM)IR4CU Wrote:(07-04-2018 12:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: If Georgia Tech has a decent team they'd sell out a 90-95k Memorial Stadium.
I think Ga Tech would sell out a 90K - 95K Memorial Stadium if they were having an exceptional season but I don’t believe this would be the norm. Based on the attendance figures provided by Clemson for the last 5 Ga Tech games played at Clemson, the average attendance was 79,235 - close to a sell out (81,500) but not quite there. Just don’t see this game drawing 90K to 95K unless both teams were ranked fairly high. Ga Tech is one of our historical rivals and does generally draw good crowds but they just don’t normally generate the excitement and anticipation that a home game with FSU does (or UGA, Auburn, Texas A&M, South Carolina).
To be fair, the last five GT home games includes a Thursday night game where attendance was only 75k (2013), a game played in the rain less than a week after a significant portion of the fan base dealt with massive flooding (2015), and last year's monsoon game.
Not slamming Ga Tech - they certainly are one of the more interesting teams that we play and the attendance is usually at or near capacity. I just don’t believe that they would normally draw sellout crowds if Clemson was to expand their stadium. You mentioned bad weather which certainly impacted attendance at last years GT game however, over 82,000 showed up and stayed for the 2015 Notre Dame game played in arguably as bad if not worse weather.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Indytarheel - 07-04-2018 08:12 PM
Question? Does it matter if the opponent is less than? I mean, we are talking about fan base support of their team. And, if that fan base is super loyal why would it matter. They are there to support the team regardless of opponent. Sounds like a fan base who's support is somewhat conditional. Winning is the true gauge to fan base loyalty. If they are there to support, the opponent shouldn't matter.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - IR4CU - 07-04-2018 09:06 PM
[quote='Indytarheel' pid='15371494' dateline='1530753165']
Question? Does it matter if the opponent is less than? I mean, we are talking about fan base support of their team. And, if that fan base is super loyal why would it matter. They are there to support the team regardless of opponent. Sounds like a fan base who's support is somewhat conditional. Winning is the true gauge to fan base loyalty. If they are there to support, the opponent shouldn't matter.
[/quote ]
You are absolutely correct - a fan base should show up and support their team no matter who the opponent is. However, there is no denying the fact that certain opponents create more excitement and enthusiasm then other opponents. Clemson does a pretty decent job of filling their stadium regardless the opponent so the problem boils down to how many of the seats allotted to the visiting team are filled by visiting fans. This is where I believe the difference would be for Clemson if they had a larger stadium - fan bases are much larger in the SEC and certainly seem to travel better then those in the ACC when it comes to football.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Kaplony - 07-04-2018 09:39 PM
(07-04-2018 08:12 PM)Indytarheel Wrote: Question? Does it matter if the opponent is less than? I mean, we are talking about fan base support of their team. And, if that fan base is super loyal why would it matter. They are there to support the team regardless of opponent. Sounds like a fan base who's support is somewhat conditional. Winning is the true gauge to fan base loyalty. If they are there to support, the opponent shouldn't matter.
I've worked first aid at South Carolina games as an advisor to our FD Explorer post before. Kentucky brought 8k to a road game on Thursday night I worked. If Clemson were in the SEC we would need to expand to 90k just to accommodate additional visitor tickets for SEC East foes.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Hokie Mark - 07-04-2018 10:43 PM
Is a UNC fan calling out Clemson fans about supporting their team?
When exactly did I enter the Twilight Zone?
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - H.U.S.T.L.E. - 07-05-2018 02:11 PM
(07-04-2018 11:09 AM)Kaplony Wrote: To be fair, the last five GT home games includes a Thursday night game where attendance was only 75k (2013), a game played in the rain less than a week after a significant portion of the fan base dealt with massive flooding (2015), and last year's monsoon game.
I think it's interesting how different fanbases view Thursday night games.
Based on your post history, it seems like most Clemson fans find them to be an annoyance.
In contrast, VT fans typically look forward to Thursday night home games and the fanbase was upset a few years ago when we didn't have one on the schedule. Perhaps the tradition of playing on Thursday nights is just stronger due to VT's ties to the Big East, where getting the exposure of that night as the program grew in stature has lots to do with VT's name value now.
Just an observation that I always find interesting among various fanbases on this board.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - georgia_tech_swagger - 07-05-2018 02:14 PM
When Thursday night meant unrivaled exposure on ESPN ... it was worth it for GT to play on it. Now ESPN fills out the entire week for the entire month of November. And fills out Thursday and Friday most weeks. So the "enormous TV exposure" has been heavily diluted. Add to that the fact that at the best of times GT fans will be late arriving for Thursday games because of Atlanta traffic and you have a fanbase that goes from love to hate on Thursday games in about a decade flat.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Kaplony - 07-05-2018 07:17 PM
(07-05-2018 02:11 PM)H.U.S.T.L.E. Wrote:(07-04-2018 11:09 AM)Kaplony Wrote: To be fair, the last five GT home games includes a Thursday night game where attendance was only 75k (2013), a game played in the rain less than a week after a significant portion of the fan base dealt with massive flooding (2015), and last year's monsoon game.
I think it's interesting how different fanbases view Thursday night games.
Based on your post history, it seems like most Clemson fans find them to be an annoyance.
In contrast, VT fans typically look forward to Thursday night home games and the fanbase was upset a few years ago when we didn't have one on the schedule. Perhaps the tradition of playing on Thursday nights is just stronger due to VT's ties to the Big East, where getting the exposure of that night as the program grew in stature has lots to do with VT's name value now.
Just an observation that I always find interesting among various fanbases on this board.
Significant portions of Clemson's fanbase has to travel 2+ hours to get to the game so a Thursday night home game means having to burn a vacation day and kids missing school. If you have a kid participating in athletics they are unable to attend the Clemson game because they have games or practice. Because of the amount of parking the stadium crowd requires Clemson has to cancel school and clear out parking lots. Then you have the game that ends late and travel time back. My family was unable to go to the GT game because of school athletic commitments, but the people we tailgate with did and didn't get home until close to 2AM and ended up just taking off work Friday as well. It cost them 2 vacation days to see one football game that never should have been played on a Thursday anyway.
Thursday night games also essentially eliminate any recruiting visits except for kids in the immediate area because the high school kids have practice. When you only have seven chances to showcase your stadium in action each year losing even one is a negative.
And while formerly the Thursday night games were a big deal with the competition from the NFL games and the fact that now there are often multiple college games across the different networks I question the level of exposure you are really getting.
RE: Clemson: ACC or SEC - Hokie Mark - 07-05-2018 08:28 PM
My job allows me to take 1/2 vacation days. Leave at lunch time on Thursday, return to work after lunch on Friday. Some employers allow it, some don't.