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Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - Rube Dali - 10-09-2018 09:49 PM
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24945390/judge-rules-ncaa-show-cause-penalty-violates-california-law
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - USAFMEDIC - 10-09-2018 11:56 PM
Is this regarding some of the the schools boycotting eastern teams?
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - Wedge - 10-10-2018 02:05 AM
The judge is right. I suspect the NCAA's show cause penalty is illegal in pretty much every state, not just California.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-todd-mcnair-show-cause-20181009-story.html
Quote:Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Frederick Shaller issued a final decision Tuesday finding the “show-cause” penalty the NCAA issued against former USC assistant football coach Todd McNair violated state law.
Shaller’s eight-page decision voided the show-cause provision of NCAA bylaws because it constituted an “unlawful restraint” on McNair’s pursuing a lawful profession.
“McNair’s ability to practice his profession as a college football coach has been restricted, if not preempted, not only in Los Angeles, but in every state in the country,” Shaller wrote.
The show cause penalty amounts to a conspiracy among NCAA members to not hire McNair (or anyone else who receives that penalty).
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - ken d - 10-10-2018 07:53 AM
(10-10-2018 02:05 AM)Wedge Wrote: The judge is right. I suspect the NCAA's show cause penalty is illegal in pretty much every state, not just California.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-todd-mcnair-show-cause-20181009-story.html
Quote:Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Frederick Shaller issued a final decision Tuesday finding the “show-cause” penalty the NCAA issued against former USC assistant football coach Todd McNair violated state law.
Shaller’s eight-page decision voided the show-cause provision of NCAA bylaws because it constituted an “unlawful restraint” on McNair’s pursuing a lawful profession.
“McNair’s ability to practice his profession as a college football coach has been restricted, if not preempted, not only in Los Angeles, but in every state in the country,” Shaller wrote.
The show cause penalty amounts to a conspiracy among NCAA members to not hire McNair (or anyone else who receives that penalty).
How many other states have had a coach subjected to a show cause order? Have any of those coaches challenged the legality of this in court yet?
If this were to ever find its way into the Supreme Court, I suspect you are right that this bylaw could be deemed unconstitutional nationally. The NCAA might be smart not to fight it rather than risk getting shot down.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - solohawks - 10-10-2018 07:55 AM
The NCAA doing something illegal and monopolistic????
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - RobtheAggie - 10-10-2018 08:04 AM
California already has a separate JuCo association that does not compete with the NJCAA. I wonder if this, plus the state's law that public funds can not be used to take public employees to certain states might make some public California schools too much hassle for conferences.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - HeartOfDixie - 10-10-2018 08:13 AM
It’s a poor decision.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - BadgerMJ - 10-10-2018 08:28 AM
(10-09-2018 09:49 PM)Rube Dali Wrote: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24945390/judge-rules-ncaa-show-cause-penalty-violates-california-law
a report that concluded McNair "knew or should have known" that Bush was engaged in violations with a would-be agent while playing for USC, and McNair "provided false and misleading information to the enforcement staff."
A show-cause order requires an NCAA member institution to demonstrate to the COI why it should not be subject to a penalty for "not taking appropriate disciplinary or corrective action" against a staff member found to have committed an NCAA violation.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Willful Ignorance isn't an excuse in a legal court, why should it be when dealing with the NCAA? If this coach KNEW of the violations and did nothing, that would be a violation. If he should have KNOWN but pulled a "fingers in the ears and hum" routine, that's just as bad.
I don't see how giving the school the opportunity to convince the NCAA NOT to penalize them for a violation would violate the law.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - Frank the Tank - 10-10-2018 11:16 AM
(10-10-2018 08:28 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:(10-09-2018 09:49 PM)Rube Dali Wrote: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24945390/judge-rules-ncaa-show-cause-penalty-violates-california-law
a report that concluded McNair "knew or should have known" that Bush was engaged in violations with a would-be agent while playing for USC, and McNair "provided false and misleading information to the enforcement staff."
A show-cause order requires an NCAA member institution to demonstrate to the COI why it should not be subject to a penalty for "not taking appropriate disciplinary or corrective action" against a staff member found to have committed an NCAA violation.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Willful Ignorance isn't an excuse in a legal court, why should it be when dealing with the NCAA? If this coach KNEW of the violations and did nothing, that would be a violation. If he should have KNOWN but pulled a "fingers in the ears and hum" routine, that's just as bad.
I don't see how giving the school the opportunity to convince the NCAA NOT to penalize them for a violation would violate the law.
There are a few issues here.
The first issue is whether this is a violation of law in the first place. NCAA regulations regarding agents are NOT the law. They’re internal policies and rules that the NCAA has enacted that apply to its members. It’s no different than when, say, the National Association of Realtors has an internal rule about when and where real estate agents can solicit customers. Those are all private association rules as opposed to actual laws. A court won’t enforce internal rules that may very well be illegal themselves.
The second issue is that it wouldn’t even necessarily matter if there’s a violation of law. The antitrust problem is that you can’t have a group of entities *collectively* bar someone from employment for whatever reason (even violations of law). That’s a classic illegal collusion case. If all of the members of the NCAA *individually* happen to come to the same conclusion that they don’t want to hire people that have violated NCAA rules, then that’s fine. However, what’s happening now is that the NCAA itself is making the restriction and applying to all of its members, which is where it turns into a collusion issue. Individual schools don’t have the ability to make their own individual hiring choices on that front, which is a significant antitrust problem.
The third issue is that restrictions on hiring people are already very tough to enforce in the State of California specifically. This was a perfect set of circumstances for the NCAA to be challenged.
I’ve long stated that the NCAA is a walking antitrust violation and this is merely another example of that being the case.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - Captain Bearcat - 10-10-2018 12:07 PM
From the article:
"If California law prevents institutions in that state from honoring such commitments, it is hard to see how the Pac-12's Member Universities in California could continue to meet the requirements of NCAA membership," Scott wrote. "Thus, the Court's tentative ruling would place at risk the competitive and scholarship opportunities that flow from NCAA participation for the Pac-12's California Member Universities."
This statement is classic California. A powerful entity (the Pac-12) is not arguing that the law is on their side; instead they're arguing that they need this to be legal in order to maintain their power. Disgusting that they would even put this into their brief.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - McKinney - 10-10-2018 12:17 PM
(10-10-2018 11:16 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: However, what’s happening now is that the NCAA itself is making the restriction and applying to all of its members, which is where it turns into a collusion issue. Individual schools don’t have the ability to make their own individual hiring choices on that front, which is a significant antitrust problem.
The NCAA does not restrict schools from hiring a penalized coach. It's not like there's a policy in place that says you can't hire them. You just run the risk of facing penalties if you do.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - DavidSt - 10-10-2018 02:50 PM
with the basketball hoops scandal, and the coaches involved? You wonder why NCAA have not pointed out the legal problems with coaches and all that are involved? As many employees, if you were fired from your job for just caused that is drastic? You will not be hired by the same company in another town or state. This guy made his consequences for violating the rules. The NCAA is the employer in this case, and the guy broke the rules which he should have this leveled at him. The court is wrong, and California laws do not protect people who were willing to broke the rules of the said company.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - solohawks - 10-10-2018 02:55 PM
(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - McKinney - 10-10-2018 03:05 PM
(10-10-2018 02:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
* The NCAA is the governing body of the employer and prospective employers in this case
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - The Cutter of Bish - 10-10-2018 03:56 PM
(10-10-2018 12:17 PM)McKinney Wrote:(10-10-2018 11:16 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote: However, what’s happening now is that the NCAA itself is making the restriction and applying to all of its members, which is where it turns into a collusion issue. Individual schools don’t have the ability to make their own individual hiring choices on that front, which is a significant antitrust problem.
The NCAA does not restrict schools from hiring a penalized coach. It's not like there's a policy in place that says you can't hire them. You just run the risk of facing penalties if you do.
That was always my take on it.
It's a black list, though.
But, it's also not like it isn't protective for schools who want to take on staff and can't fully, legally get the inside story on someone. To hire someone and then have another institution snitch on you to the NCAA getting you in trouble for making a "bad hire." Because, while there are ways to get this stuff outside of a resume and listed references, those ways aren't legal or ethical, either.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and, once again, it's a self-made problem that was created to fix another self-made issue. The snitch culture is ridiculous.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - Fighting Muskie - 10-10-2018 08:05 PM
Well perhaps USC can return to "national" prominence in the California Collegiate Athletic Association.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - BruceMcF - 10-10-2018 09:49 PM
(10-10-2018 03:05 PM)McKinney Wrote:The issue is that the NCAA is not appointed by the actual governing bodies of the employers ... the state governments of the schools ... to exercise their authority. The members of the NCAA have self-selected the NCAA to govern them. If the actions of the NCAA restrict competition, that may easily result in the NCAA acting as an illegal cartel.(10-10-2018 02:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
* The NCAA is the governing body of the employer and prospective employers in this case
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - DavidSt - 10-11-2018 04:22 AM
(10-10-2018 09:49 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(10-10-2018 03:05 PM)McKinney Wrote:The issue is that the NCAA is not appointed by the actual governing bodies of the employers ... the state governments of the schools ... to exercise their authority. The members of the NCAA have self-selected the NCAA to govern them. If the actions of the NCAA restrict competition, that may easily result in the NCAA acting as an illegal cartel.(10-10-2018 02:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
* The NCAA is the governing body of the employer and prospective employers in this case
He can still get a coaching job, but not at an NCAA school from all levels. He could be hired at: NAIA, NCCAA (who are not an NCAA member), USCAA, NJCAA or other community colleges in California, Canadian Colleges, or other smaller independent schools not associated with any organizations.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - solohawks - 10-11-2018 05:36 AM
(10-11-2018 04:22 AM)DavidSt Wrote:(10-10-2018 09:49 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(10-10-2018 03:05 PM)McKinney Wrote:The issue is that the NCAA is not appointed by the actual governing bodies of the employers ... the state governments of the schools ... to exercise their authority. The members of the NCAA have self-selected the NCAA to govern them. If the actions of the NCAA restrict competition, that may easily result in the NCAA acting as an illegal cartel.(10-10-2018 02:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
* The NCAA is the governing body of the employer and prospective employers in this case
He can still get a coaching job, but not at an NCAA school from all levels. He could be hired at: NAIA, NCCAA (who are not an NCAA member), USCAA, NJCAA or other community colleges in California, Canadian Colleges, or other smaller independent schools not associated with any organizations.
You forgot JV middle school.
RE: Mass exodus of California schools from NCAA? - chargeradio - 10-11-2018 05:37 AM
(10-11-2018 04:22 AM)DavidSt Wrote:If he could document those schools tend to pay significantly less, than the NCAA may not be off the hook.(10-10-2018 09:49 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:(10-10-2018 03:05 PM)McKinney Wrote:The issue is that the NCAA is not appointed by the actual governing bodies of the employers ... the state governments of the schools ... to exercise their authority. The members of the NCAA have self-selected the NCAA to govern them. If the actions of the NCAA restrict competition, that may easily result in the NCAA acting as an illegal cartel.(10-10-2018 02:55 PM)solohawks Wrote:(10-10-2018 02:50 PM)DavidSt Wrote: The NCAA is the employer in this case
Wrong
* The NCAA is the governing body of the employer and prospective employers in this case
He can still get a coaching job, but not at an NCAA school from all levels. He could be hired at: NAIA, NCCAA (who are not an NCAA member), USCAA, NJCAA or other community colleges in California, Canadian Colleges, or other smaller independent schools not associated with any organizations.