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+---- Thread: Mid Major Pecking Order (/thread-902003.html)
Mid Major Pecking Order - dirtyjersey - 06-29-2020 07:22 PM
Much has been made about the pecking order of the P5 schools but what about the low to mid major conferences?
Obviously, the MEAC, WAC, and ASUN are at or near the bottom, CAA and MVC make up the middle and the WCC, MWC and American are at the top but where do all the other conferences fit in? What factors go into determining this? Is it purely performance based?
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - Mav - 06-29-2020 08:09 PM
Depends on the region and sport. Midwest would go something like Summit-OVC-Horizon-MVC as worst-to-best in basketball, for instance. Then you have conferences like the Big West that would be a step above the WAC in basketball but a power conference in baseball.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - UofMemphis - 06-29-2020 08:24 PM
AAC isn't 'mid major' but whatever...
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - NotANewbie - 06-29-2020 08:47 PM
(06-29-2020 08:24 PM)UofMemphis Wrote: AAC isn't 'mid major' but whatever...
But some day they might rise to that level.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - IWokeUpLikeThis - 06-29-2020 09:07 PM
(06-29-2020 07:22 PM)dirtyjersey Wrote: Much has been made about the pecking order of the P5 schools but what about the low to mid major conferences?
Obviously, the MEAC, WAC, and ASUN are at or near the bottom, CAA and MVC make up the middle and the WCC, MWC and American are at the top but where do all the other conferences fit in? What factors go into determining this? Is it purely performance based?
It’s region/sport-dependent. It can also be academics-dependent (IVY, Patriot, America East, Big West).
For midwestern football, the MAC’s on top because it’s the only conference with FBS access.
For midwestern basketball, everyone has equal access and there’s no academic-oriented leagues, so it comes down more to performance.
MVC > MAC > Horizon > OVC > Summit
Now, the Summit may outperform the Horizon, but the Horizon’s higher in the pecking order because it’s poached 3 teams recently (Oakland/IUPUI/Ft Wayne) from the Summit, thereby establishing a higher position of leverage.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - bullet - 06-29-2020 09:12 PM
This is all the way back to 1985, but its a start. https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/2019-02-28/how-every-conference-has-fared-march-madness-1985
CONFERENCE WINS LOSSES PERCENTAGE
MW City * 2 1 66.67%
ACC 318 162 66.25%
Big East 286 177 61.77%
Big Ten 278 181 60.57%
SEC 231 151 60.47%
American 11 8 57.89%
Big 8 * 67 49 57.76%
Big 12 159 117 57.61%
PCAA * 8 6 57.14%
Pac-10 * 141 107 56.85%
Great Midwest * 15 12 55.56%
Pac-12 26 24 52.00%
Metro * 26 25 50.98%
CUSA 54 53 50.47%
Horizon 19 19 50.00%
A-10 88 98 47.31%
SWC 21 24 46.67%
WCC 35 41 46.05%
Independents 13 18 41.94%
MVC 40 59 40.40%
WAC 42 65 39.25%
Big West 21 33 38.89%
CAA 21 37 36.21%
MAC 19 38 33.33%
MWC 22 44 33.33%
MW Coll * 10 22 31.25%
Sun Belt 16 42 27.59%
ASC * 1 3 25.00%
Mid-Cont * 7 23 23.33%
NAC * 2 8 20.00%
Ivy 8 33 19.51%
A-Sun 6 32 15.79%
Southern 6 33 15.38%
OVC 6 34 15.00%
Southland 5 32 13.51%
MAAC 5 33 13.16%
WCAC * 1 7 12.50%
Patriot 3 25 10.71%
ECAC * 1 9 10.00%
MEAC 3 28 9.68%
Summit 1 10 9.09%
Big Sky 3 32 8.57%
American East 1 20 4.76%
Big South 1 21 4.55%
SWAC 1 24 4.00%
ECC * 0 7 0.00%
NEC 0 25 0.00%
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - 3BNole - 06-29-2020 09:12 PM
(06-29-2020 09:07 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:(06-29-2020 07:22 PM)dirtyjersey Wrote: Much has been made about the pecking order of the P5 schools but what about the low to mid major conferences?
Obviously, the MEAC, WAC, and ASUN are at or near the bottom, CAA and MVC make up the middle and the WCC, MWC and American are at the top but where do all the other conferences fit in? What factors go into determining this? Is it purely performance based?
It’s region/sport-dependent. It can also be academics-dependent (IVY, Patriot, America East, Big West).
For midwestern football, the MAC’s on top because it’s the only conference with FBS access.
For midwestern basketball, everyone has equal access and there’s no academic-oriented leagues, so it comes down more to performance.
MVC > MAC > Horizon > OVC > Summit
Now, the Summit may outperform the Horizon, but the Horizon’s higher in the pecking order because it’s poached 3 teams recently (Oakland/IUPUI/Ft Wayne) from the Summit, thereby establishing a higher position of leverage.
Exactly. For instance, in baseball the ASUN would actually be considered a high mid major, a conference that typically gets multiple bids and once in a blue moon even has a team host a regional.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - 3BNole - 06-29-2020 09:14 PM
(06-29-2020 09:12 PM)bullet Wrote: This is all the way back to 1985, but its a start. https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/2019-02-28/how-every-conference-has-fared-march-madness-1985
CONFERENCE WINS LOSSES PERCENTAGE
MW City * 2 1 66.67%
ACC 318 162 66.25%
Big East 286 177 61.77%
Big Ten 278 181 60.57%
SEC 231 151 60.47%
American 11 8 57.89%
Big 8 * 67 49 57.76%
Big 12 159 117 57.61%
PCAA * 8 6 57.14%
Pac-10 * 141 107 56.85%
Great Midwest * 15 12 55.56%
Pac-12 26 24 52.00%
Metro * 26 25 50.98%
CUSA 54 53 50.47%
Horizon 19 19 50.00%
A-10 88 98 47.31%
SWC 21 24 46.67%
WCC 35 41 46.05%
Independents 13 18 41.94%
MVC 40 59 40.40%
WAC 42 65 39.25%
Big West 21 33 38.89%
CAA 21 37 36.21%
MAC 19 38 33.33%
MWC 22 44 33.33%
MW Coll * 10 22 31.25%
Sun Belt 16 42 27.59%
ASC * 1 3 25.00%
Mid-Cont * 7 23 23.33%
NAC * 2 8 20.00%
Ivy 8 33 19.51%
A-Sun 6 32 15.79%
Southern 6 33 15.38%
OVC 6 34 15.00%
Southland 5 32 13.51%
MAAC 5 33 13.16%
WCAC * 1 7 12.50%
Patriot 3 25 10.71%
ECAC * 1 9 10.00%
MEAC 3 28 9.68%
Summit 1 10 9.09%
Big Sky 3 32 8.57%
American East 1 20 4.76%
Big South 1 21 4.55%
SWAC 1 24 4.00%
ECC * 0 7 0.00%
NEC 0 25 0.00%
Fun random fact, if you made a list of all the conferences with members who at one point played for a national championship in basketball, the ASUN would be on that list.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - bullet - 06-29-2020 09:15 PM
Same data sorted by number of wins
CONFERENCE WINS LOSSES PERCENTAGE
ACC 318 162 66.25%
Big East 286 177 61.77%
Big Ten 278 181 60.57%
SEC 231 151 60.47%
Big 12 159 117 57.61%
Pac-10 * 141 107 56.85%
A-10 88 98 47.31%
Big 8 * 67 49 57.76%
CUSA 54 53 50.47%
WAC 42 65 39.25%
MVC 40 59 40.40%
WCC 35 41 46.05%
Pac-12 26 24 52.00%
Metro * 26 25 50.98%
MWC 22 44 33.33%
SWC 21 24 46.67%
Big West 21 33 38.89%
CAA 21 37 36.21%
Horizon 19 19 50.00%
MAC 19 38 33.33%
Sun Belt 16 42 27.59%
Great Midwest * 15 12 55.56%
Independents 13 18 41.94%
American 11 8 57.89%
MW Coll * 10 22 31.25%
PCAA * 8 6 57.14%
Ivy 8 33 19.51%
Mid-Cont * 7 23 23.33%
A-Sun 6 32 15.79%
Southern 6 33 15.38%
OVC 6 34 15.00%
Southland 5 32 13.51%
MAAC 5 33 13.16%
Patriot 3 25 10.71%
MEAC 3 28 9.68%
Big Sky 3 32 8.57%
MW City * 2 1 66.67%
NAC * 2 8 20.00%
ASC * 1 3 25.00%
WCAC * 1 7 12.50%
ECAC * 1 9 10.00%
Summit 1 10 9.09%
American East 1 20 4.76%
Big South 1 21 4.55%
SWAC 1 24 4.00%
ECC * 0 7 0.00%
NEC 0 25 0.00%
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - BruceMcF - 06-29-2020 09:43 PM
Is that total number of wins by schools in that conference at the time of the win, or total number of wins by schools in that conference at present?
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - SoCalBobcat78 - 06-29-2020 09:52 PM
(06-29-2020 08:09 PM)Mav Wrote: Depends on the region and sport. Midwest would go something like Summit-OVC-Horizon-MVC as worst-to-best in basketball, for instance. Then you have conferences like the Big West that would be a step above the WAC in basketball but a power conference in baseball.
The WAC has been at least as good as the Big West in basketball, if not better. They had a better Net Conference ranking in 2018-2019 and won head-to-head matchups 6-2. That was the third straight season they had a better Net or RPI conference ranking. In 2019-2020, the Big West had a better Net Ranking, but lost the head-to-head matchup 4-2. California Baptist beat UCI, the Big West Conference Regular season champ, 68-60 in Irvine.
The Big West has had some great baseball teams, but they are not a power conference, at least not lately. They were a one bid conference in 2018 & 2019. They are a good mid-major in baseball that has slipped for some reason in the last few seasons. I have no idea as to why.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - Mav - 06-29-2020 09:58 PM
I guess if I had to push them all together, it'd go something like this. Doing them as a ranking doesn't make much sense to me, so I'll do them as tiers.
AAC (yes they're mid-major until proven otherwise)
MWC, WCC, A10
MVC, CAA
Horizon, OVC, MAC, Ivy
MAAC, C-USA, SoCon, Sun Belt
WAC, Big West, Summit, Patriot, Southland
Big Sky, NEC, AEC, Big South
ASUN, MEAC, SWAC
This is as much about basketball prestige as performance. Granted, I might be a little biased from a geographic standpoint, I'll admit.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - DavidSt - 06-29-2020 10:09 PM
CCNY was a champion D1 team who is not in the D1 now. They were part of the Metropolitan New York Conference with the other NYC schools that are in D1 now. Others from that conference who is not there now are NYU, Brooklyn College and Pratt Institute. Another school that made it was Seattle U. who went to the championship game in the 1950s.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - bullet - 06-29-2020 10:13 PM
(06-29-2020 09:43 PM)BruceMcF Wrote: Is that total number of wins by schools in that conference at the time of the win, or total number of wins by schools in that conference at present?
At the time of the win.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - lion1983 - 06-29-2020 10:25 PM
(06-29-2020 09:15 PM)bullet Wrote: Same data sorted by number of wins
CONFERENCE WINS LOSSES PERCENTAGE
ACC 318 162 66.25%
Big East 286 177 61.77%
Big Ten 278 181 60.57%
SEC 231 151 60.47%
Big 12 159 117 57.61%
Pac-10 * 141 107 56.85%
A-10 88 98 47.31%
Big 8 * 67 49 57.76%
CUSA 54 53 50.47%
WAC 42 65 39.25%
MVC 40 59 40.40%
WCC 35 41 46.05%
Pac-12 26 24 52.00%
Metro * 26 25 50.98%
MWC 22 44 33.33%
SWC 21 24 46.67%
Big West 21 33 38.89%
CAA 21 37 36.21%
Horizon 19 19 50.00%
MAC 19 38 33.33%
Sun Belt 16 42 27.59%
Great Midwest * 15 12 55.56%
Independents 13 18 41.94%
American 11 8 57.89%
MW Coll * 10 22 31.25%
PCAA * 8 6 57.14%
Ivy 8 33 19.51%
Mid-Cont * 7 23 23.33%
A-Sun 6 32 15.79%
Southern 6 33 15.38%
OVC 6 34 15.00%
Southland 5 32 13.51%
MAAC 5 33 13.16%
Patriot 3 25 10.71%
MEAC 3 28 9.68%
Big Sky 3 32 8.57%
MW City * 2 1 66.67%
NAC * 2 8 20.00%
ASC * 1 3 25.00%
WCAC * 1 7 12.50%
ECAC * 1 9 10.00%
Summit 1 10 9.09%
American East 1 20 4.76%
Big South 1 21 4.55%
SWAC 1 24 4.00%
ECC * 0 7 0.00%3
NEC 0 25 0.00%
Its funny how everyone puts the ASUN at the bottom when they are above all of their "peer" conferences around them... but I cant put them higher than the SoCon at this point. But in order
ASUN
OVC
Southland
MAAC
Summit
American East
Big South
NEC
And with current schools in the ASUN, it will get better.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - Stugray2 - 06-29-2020 11:36 PM
I would put the AAC in a caetgory of "High Mid-Major" along with the WCC, A10 and MWC. Nearly every at-large bid comes from these conferences, and each has multiple schools within the near major category.
As far as "Majors" within Mid-Major conferences go, there are three by budget: Gonzaga (WCC), Dayton (A10), Memphis (AAC). But these are the only "High Mid-Major" programs ranking in the top 65 for budget. The other dozen within the range of the Big East and P5 are only mixed in among the bottom 15 from those conferences (bottom 20%). So you have Wichita State, Sand Diego State, Cincinnati, BYU, Fresno State, Temple, Saint Louis and so on mixed in with the likes of Oregon State, DePaul, Butler, Rutgers, Georgia Tech, Oklahoma State and so on. It's probably easier to argue these bottom P5/Big East schools are not truly majors than the mid-majors inhabiting the same level are truly majors.
Anyway this group occupies the 65-95 zone of Upper mid-majors.
Below that is another group of about 30 schools whom are Solid mid-majors, then 50 or so more I'd say are Average Mid-Majors. Once you get to about 150th we are heading into the lower Mid-Majors, and after 200th I'd say your below Mid-Major, and into the Minor category.
I've printed the budget list a few times. Not going to bother again. (Pain to format)
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - 46566 - 06-30-2020 12:04 AM
(06-29-2020 09:52 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(06-29-2020 08:09 PM)Mav Wrote: Depends on the region and sport. Midwest would go something like Summit-OVC-Horizon-MVC as worst-to-best in basketball, for instance. Then you have conferences like the Big West that would be a step above the WAC in basketball but a power conference in baseball.
The WAC has been at least as good as the Big West in basketball, if not better. They had a better Net Conference ranking in 2018-2019 and won head-to-head matchups 6-2. That was the third straight season they had a better Net or RPI conference ranking. In 2019-2020, the Big West had a better Net Ranking, but lost the head-to-head matchup 4-2. California Baptist beat UCI, the Big West Conference Regular season champ, 68-60 in Irvine.
The Big West has had some great baseball teams, but they are not a power conference, at least not lately. They were a one bid conference in 2018 & 2019. They are a good mid-major in baseball that has slipped for some reason in the last few seasons. I have no idea as to why.
The Big West has 2 advantages 1) it's stable and 2) it's footprint. While I know they didn't want to poach Cal State Bakersfield but they did and they accepted. I think that hurt the view of the WAC not counting the unstable environment of the schools. Heck should something happen to Hawaii Olympic sports I highly suspect that Cal Baptist would be invited to the Big West. The WAC serves as the western feeder conference. Should New Mexico State gets a full invite to any FBS conference they are gone and I think the WAC loses their Marquee school.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - dxdtdemon - 06-30-2020 12:09 AM
(06-29-2020 09:43 PM)BruceMcF Wrote: Is that total number of wins by schools in that conference at the time of the win, or total number of wins by schools in that conference at present?
It would probably have to be present members given how many wins Butler and Xavier had in the Horizon.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - SoCalBobcat78 - 06-30-2020 12:28 AM
(06-30-2020 12:04 AM)46566 Wrote:(06-29-2020 09:52 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(06-29-2020 08:09 PM)Mav Wrote: Depends on the region and sport. Midwest would go something like Summit-OVC-Horizon-MVC as worst-to-best in basketball, for instance. Then you have conferences like the Big West that would be a step above the WAC in basketball but a power conference in baseball.
The WAC has been at least as good as the Big West in basketball, if not better. They had a better Net Conference ranking in 2018-2019 and won head-to-head matchups 6-2. That was the third straight season they had a better Net or RPI conference ranking. In 2019-2020, the Big West had a better Net Ranking, but lost the head-to-head matchup 4-2. California Baptist beat UCI, the Big West Conference Regular season champ, 68-60 in Irvine.
The Big West has had some great baseball teams, but they are not a power conference, at least not lately. They were a one bid conference in 2018 & 2019. They are a good mid-major in baseball that has slipped for some reason in the last few seasons. I have no idea as to why.
The Big West has 2 advantages 1) it's stable and 2) it's footprint. While I know they didn't want to poach Cal State Bakersfield but they did and they accepted. I think that hurt the view of the WAC not counting the unstable environment of the schools. Heck should something happen to Hawaii Olympic sports I highly suspect that Cal Baptist would be invited to the Big West. The WAC serves as the western feeder conference. Should New Mexico State gets a full invite to any FBS conference they are gone and I think the WAC loses their Marquee school.
1) Stability is overrated.
2) The Big West is a California Bus League, which gives it “stability.” Hawaii is the exception and who doesn’t like a road trip to Hawaii.
3) New Mexico State has been waiting for that “full invite” for eight years.
4) CBU, like GCU, are programs with money, facilities and desire to win. They will never get invited to a public school league with tight budgets.
RE: Mid Major Pecking Order - dirtyjersey - 06-30-2020 12:35 AM
(06-30-2020 12:28 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(06-30-2020 12:04 AM)46566 Wrote:(06-29-2020 09:52 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:(06-29-2020 08:09 PM)Mav Wrote: Depends on the region and sport. Midwest would go something like Summit-OVC-Horizon-MVC as worst-to-best in basketball, for instance. Then you have conferences like the Big West that would be a step above the WAC in basketball but a power conference in baseball.
The WAC has been at least as good as the Big West in basketball, if not better. They had a better Net Conference ranking in 2018-2019 and won head-to-head matchups 6-2. That was the third straight season they had a better Net or RPI conference ranking. In 2019-2020, the Big West had a better Net Ranking, but lost the head-to-head matchup 4-2. California Baptist beat UCI, the Big West Conference Regular season champ, 68-60 in Irvine.
The Big West has had some great baseball teams, but they are not a power conference, at least not lately. They were a one bid conference in 2018 & 2019. They are a good mid-major in baseball that has slipped for some reason in the last few seasons. I have no idea as to why.
The Big West has 2 advantages 1) it's stable and 2) it's footprint. While I know they didn't want to poach Cal State Bakersfield but they did and they accepted. I think that hurt the view of the WAC not counting the unstable environment of the schools. Heck should something happen to Hawaii Olympic sports I highly suspect that Cal Baptist would be invited to the Big West. The WAC serves as the western feeder conference. Should New Mexico State gets a full invite to any FBS conference they are gone and I think the WAC loses their Marquee school.
1) Stability is overrated.
2) The Big West is a California Bus League, which gives it “stability.” Hawaii is the exception and who doesn’t like a road trip to Hawaii.
3) New Mexico State has been waiting for that “full invite” for eight years.
4) CBU, like GCU, are programs with money, facilities and desire to win. They will never get invited to a public school league with tight budgets.
The Big West is between the CSU system and the UC system. I don’t see them letting a private school like CBU in who could outperform the 2 major public school systems.
It’s quite possible that with the next series of big realignments whenever that may be, NMSU will get invited to MWC. CBU is also a natural fit with WCC. At that point, where does the WAC go? Does it call up more schools from D2 or do more members defect?