Virginia, who basically finished second in the ACC if you count their win over Maryland was passed over by the Gator (NC State), Peach (Maryland), and Clemson (Tangerine). They are going to end up in the Seattle or Tire Bowl. And I hear that the Seattle bowl is in financial trouble.
That is a bunch of horse crap.

I mean NC State in the Gator and Clemson in the Tangerine? Heck FSU doesn't even deserve a place in the BCS bowl. What a weak conference we had this year. I'm embarrased.

Join the crowd, Ole Miss might get it again this year. Arkansas, despite winning their division, might get the Music City or Indy bowls.

On a separate note, UVA has my favorite home uniform/helmet combo. I'm not gay for saying something like that am I?

cant_think_of_a_witty_name Wrote:On a separate note, UVA has my favorite home uniform/helmet combo. I'm not gay for saying something like that am I?

very. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Just kidding

Virginia's always getting the shaft from the All Carolina Conference, Swofford was openly lobbying to screw them over and over, bowl after bowl, he wanted them in Seattle in the 6th place bowl! No postseason basketball wins in 7 years plus? Their fans should check out the foul statistics in the ACC tourney and the number of fans from NC schools, UVA will never get the tourney anywhere near their campus.

ACC is a joke and everyone knows it, with FSU in decline expect the ACC football champ to get routed by 40 in the BCS on a yearly basis. UMD, UVA, Duke, UNC, GT, and FSU, should join Syracuse, BC, Miami, and Penn State, in a new 10 team conference that moves its tourney locations, hires unbiased refs from more than one state, and dominates the country.

Deep Blue: You have to be kidding me. "ACC is a joke?" The ACC office worked hard to get 7 teams in a bowl this year. GT helped get Wake in the Seattle Bowl by agreeing to go after a non-affiliated bowl. It was great teamwork that you rarely see inside a conference.

Swofford had nothing to do with "screwing UVa over and over." That happened because UVa doesn't travel well, nor do they have the glamour of NC State. Most message-board UVa fans even admitted that they weren't surprised by what happened due to their reputation for traveling fans.

Also, why would Swofford want to "screw over" UVa more than Maryland, Clemson, and Tech? Aren't these teams outside of the state of NC? Maryland is even farther away than Virginia is. By your logic, that means that Swofford wants to "screw over" Maryland even more than UVa.

As for basketball, where were the pro-NC refs last year when UNC was losing a lot of games? I remember some close games against UVa that ended up going the Cavs' way -- certainly those refs with money under the table would have found a way to let UNC win. Did they not get the memo from the league office? Shouldn't it be a given by now that you let UNC win the close games? :rolleyes:

Your ref-bias cospiracies are getting so old. Really -- these guys do the job because they love college basketball, not because there is some secret plan to help the NC schools and screw the rest over.

Get off the paranoia -- just about half of the ACC comes from the state of North Carolina. Some of the teams will do well, and some of the teams won't. Two of the teams from NC lost every football game last year except when they played each other. How do you explain that?

-JD

Deep Blue Wrote:UVA will never get the tourney anywhere near their campus.

If Washington DC or Charlotte aren't close enough for you, blame it on the state of Virginia for not having a large enough arena in Richmond. That's the reason - not because the ACC wants UVA to get shafted. They're in a rotation now of Atlanta, Charlotte, DC, Tampa, Greenville (?)...

Who said there's a secret plan to help NC schools? When ACC commissioner is from UNC and the refs all grow up, live, and work in NC, why on earth would there need to be any sort of planned conspiracy? If refs love basketball so much, what are their favorite teams? Are refs not allowed to graduate from ACC schools, does ACC screen them to make sure they never rooted for any ACC school? Human beings are biased, if you don't believe that, read any team's message board, were all those fans told to participate in a conspiracy to be biased towards their team?

Refs are affected by homecourt crowds according to behavioral studies and simple statistics, ACC tourneys are played in NC in front of NC fans and NC refs. Just look at the foul numbers, the numbers don't lie.

Does anyone honestly think that if UNC, a basketball school which travels to bowls worse than UVA, was in the same situation as second place football school UVA, that Swofford would be trying to get them in 6th place Seattle Bowl?

As for Maryland, they've lost something like 12 ACC tourney semifinals in a row, almost always to an NC team, like losing to NCSU the same season they won the national championship. How did that happen, coincidence?

Of course not, UNC and NCSU have won more ACC tourneys than all 7 other schools combined, including Duke. NC schools have won 90% of ACC tourneys yet make up less than half the conference. The 4 NC schools have been terrible in football throughout ACC history because they have to split instate recruits 5 ways. If ACC tourneys weren't in NC every year they would suck in basketball for the same reason.

In any case, nobody can deny that being the best conference in football and basketball and everything else with alternating tourney locations and refs and administrators from all over, is preferable to the ACC.



<!--EDIT|Deep Blue|Dec 9 2002, 05:38 AM-->

This is laughable. Okay, let me see if I can take this a few pieces at a time....

Quote:does ACC screen them to make sure they never rooted for any ACC school?

You're kidding, right? This isn't the CIA -- it's college basketball. I guess it comes down to the fact that I trust people more than you do.

Quote:the refs all grow up, live, and work in NC

You're sure about that?

Quote:As for Maryland, they've lost something like 12 ACC tourney semifinals in a row, almost always to an NC team, like losing to NCSU the same season they won the national championship. How did that happen, coincidence?

You never answered my question before about how these biased ACC refs allowed UNC to lose so many games last year. By the way, how did UNC manage to lose a close game to Georgia Tech in the ACC title game in 1993 -- the same season they won the national championship? I believe that tourney was played in NC, too.

Quote:Refs are affected by homecourt crowds

I'll give you that. The only thing is: ACC tourney crowds are split 9 ways no matter where they are played. In fact, Carolina always has more fans pulling against us than pulling for us. It's called the "gang-up factor" -- as in, let's other 8 schools gang up on Carolina and pull against them. It happens nowadays against dook moreso than Carolina (and look at how many ACC championships they've won in a row).

Quote:Does anyone honestly think that if UNC, a basketball school which travels to bowls worse than UVA, was in the same situation as second place football school UVA, that Swofford would be trying to get them in 6th place Seattle Bowl?

That is a joke, right? UVa football fans travel better than we do? To where -- Richmond, VA? We were bowl-eligible two years ago, and we stayed home. As I said before, Swofford had nothing to do with Virginia's slide in the bowl-pecking order. There is only so much the ACC office can do when it comes to these bowls. It really has more involvement with the lower bowls -- the big-money bowls pretty much decide things for themselves.

Quote:The 4 NC schools have been terrible in football throughout ACC history because they have to split instate recruits 5 ways.

Woah, now. I didn't say we'd been terrible, because UNC has a good record in conference play in football. But you do have a point -- NC schools are at a disadvantage in football recruiting because of the sheer number of Division I schools in the state (and good Division I-AA schools like App State). What that has to do with your overall argument, I have no idea....

Quote:If ACC tourneys weren't in NC every year they would suck in basketball for the same reason.

I believe I brought this up last time too -- how is it that the NC schools generally do so well during the regular season too? Not every ACC game is played in NC, you know.

Even so, I believe I shot down your point about the biased ACC tourney crowds long ago....

Anything else?

-JD

[quote]As for Maryland, they've lost something like 12 ACC tourney semifinals in a row, almost always to an NC team, like losing to NCSU the same season they won the national championship.

The point is, conferences shouldn't have to question which teams refs grew up liking, they should simply get refs from everywhere and not one state. In a carolinacentric conference like the ACC, that's not practical. In an Atlantic League spanning the entire east coast, it would be necessary. Great thing is, Paterno is also upset about Big 10 refs living and working in the midwest, since Penn State is an eastern outlier. PSU really has every reason to join the A League, they could have been undefeated if not for horrendous ref jobs. Lots of transplants from midwest, west coast, etc., also live on east coast in places like NYC, DC, etc.

It's always best to consider 50 years instead of 1. How many times do I have to explain that fans of losing teams sell tickets to NC locals, so UNC could have a 5 to 1 advantage before even playing in the first round, and 8/9 of the arena for the final, in the 99 ACC final against Duke, they did. Holding the first 13 ACC tourneys in Raleigh and the first 25 or so in NC, as well as most of the rest in NC, gave the 4 NC programs an advantage over other ACC programs. Advantages they used to build up their basketball programs and draw recruits at the expense of the other schools. Since NC programs need to split instate basketball recruits 4 or more ways as well as football recruits, there is no reason why the out of state ACC schools shouldn't have dominated in the same way they have dominated ACC football, if not for ACC tourney location. Really, in order to undo that injustice, the ACC should have 45 of the next 50 ACC tourneys anywhere but NC, just alternate between DC, Atlanta, and Florida. Since that may not be convenient, it would be better to just create a new conference spanning the Atlantic coast.

The bottom line is that no matter how fair anyone thinks the ACC is, nobody can possibly argue that an Atlantic League spanning the east coast, moving tourney locations every year so that no region is ever favored more than any other, and getting refs from all over, isn't preferable. That plus being the best in the nation instead of 2nd of 2 in southeast in everything, football and basketball and every other sport and dominating TV, media, skyrocketing revenue, etc., is obviously preferable.

Quote:The point is, conferences shouldn't have to question which teams refs grew up liking, they should simply get refs from everywhere and not one state.

Where is your proof that every ACC ref is from the state of North Carolina and pulled for the Big Four teams growing up?

Quote:How many times do I have to explain that fans of losing teams sell tickets to NC locals, so UNC could have a 5 to 1 advantage before even playing in the first round, and 8/9 of the arena for the final

Do you even go to the ACC tournaments and/or watch them on TV? I do, and I know for a fact that UNC has the crowd against us almost all the time (except for recently when our team hasn't been as good).

You are correct in that fans of teams that lose sell tickets to fans of teams who win. Also, the lower-seeded teams will tend to bring a few less fans to the tourney -- and many of those tickets will get sold to fans of higher-seeded teams. But even with all that, the first round games generally tend to be split fairly evenly about 9 ways -- because fans want to see the ACC tourney.

UNC has never had a 5-1 crowd advantage in the ACC tourney -- and certainly not an 8-1 advantage. The best we probably had was last year in the ACC tourney, because that was the first time in my lifetime I ever saw fans from other teams support UNC. In the past, we probably had other years where we did buy up enough tickets for a semifinal or championship game to have between a third or half of the crowd. But the rest of the fans would still be pulling against us....

Although I don't remember it, I'll believe you if you say that the majority of the crowd in the '99 tourney was pulling for Carolina over dook. That goes along with my "gang-up" theory and shows that dook is now becoming the team that ACC tourney fans like to gang up on. Anyway, that game was between two NC schools, so your whole argument is moot. And, that was one game -- we all know that you like to focus on 50 instead of 1. :rolleyes:

Quote:Holding the first 13 ACC tourneys in Raleigh and the first 25 or so in NC, as well as most of the rest in NC, gave the 4 NC programs an advantage over other ACC programs. Advantages they used to build up their basketball programs and draw recruits at the expense of the other schools. Since NC programs need to split instate basketball recruits 4 or more ways as well as football recruits, there is no reason why the out of state ACC schools shouldn't have dominated in the same way they have dominated ACC football, if not for ACC tourney location. Really, in order to undo that injustice, the ACC should have 45 of the next 50 ACC tourneys anywhere but NC, just alternate between DC, Atlanta, and Florida.

I can tell from this post that you are a huge proponent of affirmative action. That's not a judgment -- just an observation.

When you brought up this point last time, I mentioned how NC schools did have to resort to alternate recruiting techniques to bring in players -- like Frank McGuire's NY pipeline. Can't help it if we out-worked other schools back in the day to bring in recruits.

Quote:The bottom line is that no matter how fair anyone thinks the ACC is, nobody can possibly argue that an Atlantic League spanning the east coast, moving tourney locations every year so that no region is ever favored more than any other, and getting refs from all over, isn't preferable.

Well, I am. Call me crazy....

-JD

A couple of quick thoughts...

Bringing fans and spending money is what the bowls
are all about. Clemson fans travel in great number.
Their $2 bills are known throughout the Bowl Kingdom.

Actually, UVA has been put in the Tire Bowl. Close
enough for them to bring a great number of fans.

Besides, after the BCS bowls...Coaches only want a
bowl game so that they can get in an extra month of
practice. Especially for their younger players.

UVA, despite opening 0-2, came on strong. They faltered
a lit bit down the stretch. They had the big win over UMD,
but that was sandwiched around losses to Penn State
and VPI.

ACC bad???? 10-7 in games against teams from other
BCS leagues...(Compared to the SEC being 6-11)

ACC 4-2 vs the SEC!

Florida State in decline??? Hell, Dude...we played 13 teams
this year and ELEVEN OF THEM ARE GOING TO BOWLS.
Should we be like everyone else and play Wofford and East
Tenn St.

JD Heel Wrote:

Quote:How many times do I have to explain that fans of losing teams sell tickets to NC locals, so UNC could have a 5 to 1 advantage before even playing in the first round, and 8/9 of the arena for the final

You are correct in that fans of teams that lose sell tickets to fans of teams who win. Also, the lower-seeded teams will tend to bring a few less fans to the tourney -- and many of those tickets will get sold to fans of higher-seeded teams. But even with all that, the first round games generally tend to be split fairly evenly about 9 ways -- because fans want to see the ACC tourney.

And usually throughout the tournament, the neutral fans like to pull for the underdog. Like last year's Maryland/FSU game - when FSU made it a close game in the 2nd half, you had fans from 8 schools pulling for the Noles because they wanted to see the lower seeded team do well. Like JD said, the same thing happened in the Duke/UNC game. In 1997, the support of the fans really helped carry 9th-seeded NC State all the way to the finals. Not because they were a N.Carolina team - because they were the #9 seed.

I don't think I've ever seen fans of an NC school root for another NC school just so they could control the "balance of power" in the tourney. The only time I've seen it is if they are simply rooting for the lower seed or if they want a team to win so their team has an easier matchup to advance.

Deep Blue Wrote:Virginia's always getting the shaft from the All Carolina Conference, Swofford was openly lobbying to screw them over and over, bowl after bowl, he wanted them in Seattle in the 6th place bowl! No postseason basketball wins in 7 years plus? Their fans should check out the foul statistics in the ACC tourney and the number of fans from NC schools, UVA will never get the tourney anywhere near their campus.

ACC is a joke and everyone knows it, with FSU in decline expect the ACC football champ to get routed by 40 in the BCS on a yearly basis. UMD, UVA, Duke, UNC, GT, and FSU, should join Syracuse, BC, Miami, and Penn State, in a new 10 team conference that moves its tourney locations, hires unbiased refs from more than one state, and dominates the country.

Gee Deep Blue, guess you should have checked a fact or two before posting; i.e., Virginia is hosting the ACC Tournment in Baseball this year. My little sister is a BIG college baseball fan who is up at Blacksburg (thus her name of hokieNole) and I plan on driving up from sw Florida to watch the games this year in that state.

And why the whine that Florida State doesn't belong in the BCS bowl? We won the ACC Championship fair and square. 9 nines doesn't outweigh the 4 loses? Give this person some tissues... wah, wah, wah... :crying:

And the Noles will make the ACC proud and beat the wittle bulldogs... hehehe :D