Nothing too specific right now, I'm still surveying the Linux landscape a bit and getting psyched up to try this thing out. I got tired of looking for a "cheap" copy of MS Office which led me to OpenOffice.org which in turn led me to investigate Linux. So I thought some resident experts at ncaabbs could help point me in the right direction.

So far I've mostly looked at Linux websites and some books at Borders and I think I'm leaning toward SUSE/Novell to start with, does that sound like a reasonable choice? My main activities are websurfing, webmail, wordprocessing/spreadsheets, quicken...not much into games/photoprocessing or anything real media-intensive. Also, I see there are a lot of LiveCD disc's out there for getting a look at the o/s before attempting a permanent installation...anyone have a favorite website/book/CD they would recommend?

My desktop pc is currently experiencing technical difficulties and the hard drive is basically wiped out anyway (may be going rotten) so this is a good time to start from scratch. The question is whether to plan for a dual boot installation, keeping a copy of XP in reserve, or just charge ahead with the linux. Maybe someone would like to share how they took the leap and got started? I plan to start "getting my hands dirty" in a couple weeks.

Thanks!

ZippyRulz Wrote:Maybe someone would like to share how they took the leap and got started?  I plan to start "getting my hands dirty" in a couple weeks.

Thanks!

I quit MS software cold turkey (on my home PC, anyway). I bought a new computer in February and XP bogged the thing down. I had been researching different PC's before I made my purchase and, on the advice of GTS, a PC that ran <a href='http://www.xandros.com' target='_blank'>Xandros</a> was on the list. I didn't have the guts to buy that particualr PC, but when I saw what XP did to my new toy, I dl'd and installed Xandros (and removed XP completely).

Aside from a few kinks (figuring out which media player to use, getting used to a slightly different interface, etc) I'm diggin' it.

If you don't want to go that route, Xandros 3.0 will install alongside Windows. I've read good things about Mandrake, but I've never used it. Other people here will be much more helpful in picking a distro.

A little OT, but if anybody is a good Flash player troubleshooter, let me know. Flash isn't working right (and constantly causes Firefox to crash) and I can't find anything to explain why such a thing is happening.

thanks. I'll add Xandros to my list of candidates. Mandrake apparently now goes by the name Mandriva which is also a possibility. I'm anxious to get started but gotta go out of town for a couple weeks first. I did a little bit more with OpenOffice and it seems to work pretty well.

Pool Steps:
- Knoppix Live CD (x86* only)
- Kubuntu Live CD

Shallow End:
- Xandros
- Linspire
- Mandriva (successor to Mandrake)
- Kubuntu
- Fedora Core (successor to Red Hat)

Middle Ground:
- Debian
- Ubuntu (because the Gnome desktop GUI sucks)
- Mepis ( " )
- SuSe (although probably the best laptop distro)


Deep End:
- Damn Small Linux
- Slackware

Marianas Trench:
- Gentoo


* x86 = 32-bit AMD/Intel chips, including the entire Athlon, Celeron, and Pentium lines.

I started using Mandrake myself before progressing RAPIDLY through it, Kubuntu, and Fedora... settling on Gentoo, because they couldn't handle (at least not easily and/or long term) my power user demands, including a super powerful software management system and ease of use for advanced Linux apps like MythTV (Think TiVo on your Linux PC).

My Top 5 for any newb:
1) Fedora Core
2) Mandriva
3) Xandros
4) Linspire
5) Kubuntu

ZippyRulz Wrote:Nothing too specific right now, I'm still surveying the Linux landscape a bit and getting psyched up to try this thing out. I got tired of looking for a "cheap" copy of MS Office which led me to OpenOffice.org which in turn led me to investigate Linux. So I thought some resident experts at ncaabbs could help point me in the right direction.

So far I've mostly looked at Linux websites and some books at Borders and I think I'm leaning toward SUSE/Novell to start with, does that sound like a reasonable choice? My main activities are websurfing, webmail, wordprocessing/spreadsheets, quicken...not much into games/photoprocessing or anything real media-intensive. Also, I see there are a lot of LiveCD disc's out there for getting a look at the o/s before attempting a permanent installation...anyone have a favorite website/book/CD they would recommend?

My desktop pc is currently experiencing technical difficulties and the hard drive is basically wiped out anyway (may be going rotten) so this is a good time to start from scratch. The question is whether to plan for a dual boot installation, keeping a copy of XP in reserve, or just charge ahead with the linux. Maybe someone would like to share how they took the leap and got started? I plan to start "getting my hands dirty" in a couple weeks.

Thanks!

With Sun Micro Systems and Goog. Teaming up does this mean we should all start trying to use other office products that microsoft doesn't make because they are now backed by some money?

Or does this mean that microsoft is going to have to step up their game to the competition? I'm just asking you guys who seem to know more about this software stuff because I think it may be a good idea to invest in either Sunw or Microsoft...depending on who the world thinks is gonna win.

Does SUnw stand a chance?

Microsoft is entrenched in workplace computing due to being a virtual monopoly for so long. Bill G. claims that even with the low (or no) cost of Linux & OpenOffice, the overall cost savings would be minimal after reinstalling software, retraining employees and switching tech support/help desk over from Microsoft. He has even challenged the Linux community to hold an independent study to prove this. I think the key is that over time, more people/students/kids become exposed to Linux/OOo at younger ages, adopt it for home & school use more and more, and then don't require retraining when they get to the workplace, and even start pushing their employers for it. But it will take time and I wouldn't be placing any investment bets either way just yet. The Massachusetts state govt. offices have eliminated MS Office due to the proprietary file standards and if more organizations follow on, that could make a big difference too.

There *will be* a shift to OpenOffice.org and other similar programs like abiword.

Microsoft is a monopoly. To maintain their monopoly status; they must lock people in and force them to keep buying every few years. To lock people in; given how successful open source software has become; means to force your own proprietary standard. If they use open standards... they allow seamless use of open source software. And that's a shift that will push people out of their camp and into entirely open source software or a mix of open source software. Microsoft cannot survive as a monopoly if that happens. If they were to force MS Office to use open formats; they would completely destroy their monopoly. By holding on to proprietary formats; they will die a slow death of migration... but that's better fiscsally than having a rapid deflation. The state of Massachusetts has migrated to OpenOffice.org b/c they want file formats that will work forever. How are employees suppose to open up MS Office files from 2000 in the year 2020 when MS Office has changed proprietary formats 3... 4... 5 times since? How about in 2040? It's a big risk if have long-term document storage needs to use MS Office. You could end up paying outrageous fees for proprietary custom software to bring those old files into the latest MS proprietary format. It makes sense for people with long term storage needs to use open source based office products.

Why do you think Microsoft keeps changing its filesystem structure/format and other things? Currently if you have Windows XP and Linux installed; Linux can mount the Windows file system and read/write to files on it. Well every new Windows release breaks that; and a host of other things Linux can cooperate with Windows based setups on.

Ultimately; there are two outcomes to Microsoft's game:
1) Microsoft continues to support the all-M$ or none approach. This operates under the assumption that Linux never becomes as user friendly as Windows.
2) Microsoft breaks down and cooperates with Linux and other OS's etc. This operates under the assumption that Linux will, in the fairly near future, become as user friendly as Windows. Because at that point; it's game over. Microsoft HAS to play ball or they will go out of buisness. They will be like IBM; they will have to move on to other markets and create new markets to survive. Likely they'd create their own interoperability solutions; a nice market to thrive on.

Linux has a few things going for it that tend to make #2 the ultimate outcome:
- It will *ALWAYS* cost much less than Windows. The MIT $100 laptop for third world countries? Yea; a Win XP Home license costs $100.... much less the hardware.
- It will *ALWAYS* be more secure than Windows due to the nature of open source software.
- It will *ALWAYS* appeal more to somebody who is strong in principal. If you are big on privacy... Linux is your clear choice for an OS. Microsoft already peers into your computer via Windows Update... and frankly, the DRM in Windows Vista is absolutely 1984'ish.
- It will *ALWAYS* run faster; especially on old hardware. Many people take those Celeron 400 Mhz computers... slaw 256 MB of RAM in them... put Linux on them.. and they run fine. Have you seen the minimum specs for Vista??? They're outrageous!!
Minimum CPU: PIV 3.06 Ghz
Minimum GPU: nVidia GeForce 6200 TC; though most say at least a GeForce 6600
Minimum RAM: 1 GB

And think about that minimum RAM requirement now. Windows XP has a stated minimum of 128 MB I believe. XP isn't really happy with you AT ALL until there's a GIG or more of RAM in there. It's frightening!
- It has better code design/efficiency. And it always will unless there is a major change of focus at Microsoft. There is a hodge podge of Win 95... Win 98... Win 2000... blah blah ... ALOT of old code in Windows. They needed to completely redo Windows from the ground up after Win98SE. Instead it has gotten more bloated... more inefficient... more demanding... more obtuse.
- Linux can *NEVER* be bought out. There is no company Microsoft can go and buy to make the competition vanish. Linux is a social movement... a social concept. It is the largest collaborative work in the history of mankind. It won't just go away; and they can't make it go away either.
- Linux will be the dominant OS in Asia, Africa, South America, and poorer areas because of the lower cost. The big boom is China. China doesn't truts Windows code (wonder why?). Say what you want about their human rights violations; but 1 billion people (1/6 world) will ultimately have to use Linux to get on the net etc. That's a gigantic boost in Linux's development. China has already partnered with IBM and other Linux vendors to begin rolling out Linux.
- Linux will be the dominant OS for *POWER* users. Just look at how fast Linux is gobbling up server market share. The power geeks will use Linux b/c it meets needs Windows doesn't even come close to. This has a trickle down effect. For example... 2 of my neighbors, my mother, my brother, and my girlfriend now use Linux.

A good illustration of open standards vs. closed standards:

Want to IM somebody?
Hmmm.
Could be on AIM...
Could be on MSN...
Could be on Y!...
Could be on Jabber...
Could be on GoogleTalk...
Could be on ICQ...
Could be on Zephyr...
Could be on Groupwise...

Want to have all those clients running at once? Don't really feel thrilled about one client that does them all either do you?

That's why I'm hoping GoogleTalk wins out. It's open standard.... it already has voice support... it works on every OS...
I would throw away all my other IM accounts ('cept maybe AIM for a short while) if GoogleTalk reaches the following point:
- Voicechat(mic) support (1-on-1 will suffice; but a conference would be sweet)
- Videochat(cam) support (1-on-1 will suffice; but a conference would be sweet)
- Buddy Icon support
- File Transfer suppot

Zippy and GTS you both make great points and I agree that open source is the furture of computing there are a few important things that need to happen before th is transfer of power can take place. You both have mentioned then in your posts but I guessing your time frames are off by a few decades.

GTS I know you're a youngun (at least by my standards) GTS your age group will have to be the pioneers of this movement but it will be kids 10 years your junior that will have the best chance of seeing this happen.

Linux right now is not user friendly at all. Hell even today with MS being as friendly as it is you still have a huge segment of the work force who are completely intimidated by just having to double click an icon to open a file. Moreless the kind of involvement required for a Linux based system. So honestly I think you are going to have to have a complete turn over of the work force before this actually happens.

Also I question the security of Linux, MAC OS, Opera and Firefox. I still believe the main reason these OS's ands Apps are "More Secure" then MS based stuff is the fact that the Global destruction that can be done by attacking MS based computers is much larger which is why there are some many things being written to attack MS based boxes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years as Linux and MAC gain users and MS continues to plug holes (I know there will always be holes) if the hacker community will start looking to ways to attack these other "Supposedly" safe OS's and Apps. Cause you know just as well as I do someone out there is just waiting in the wings it write the first major virus for Linux they just need it to be worth their effort to write the virus! NO Application or OS is completely safe and if you think it is there is someone waiting to show you just how unsafe it is!!!!

NavyDoc69 Wrote:Linux right now is not user friendly at all. Hell even today with MS being as friendly as it is you still have a huge segment of the work force who are completely intimidated by just having to double click an icon to open a file. Moreless the kind of involvement required for a Linux based system. So honestly I think you are going to have to have a complete turn over of the work force before this actually happens.

Also I question the security of Linux, MAC OS, Opera and Firefox. I still believe the main reason these OS's ands Apps are "More Secure" then MS based stuff is the fact that the Global destruction that can be done by attacking MS based computers is much larger which is why there are some many things being written to attack MS based boxes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years as Linux and MAC gain users and MS continues to plug holes (I know there will always be holes) if the hacker community will start looking to ways to attack these other "Supposedly" safe OS's and Apps. Cause you know just as well as I do someone out there is just waiting in the wings it write the first major virus for Linux they just need it to be worth their effort to write the virus! NO Application or OS is completely safe and if you think it is there is someone waiting to show you just how unsafe it is!!!!

That's a joke. When I first started using Linux (Mandrake Linux 8.0 ... around 2000)... user friendlyness was just coming into its own. There's a host of distros that are flat out EASY to use now. In fact, many of them are easier to install than Windows. My neighbor is 72. He finds usings Windows at times daunting for basic tasks like browsing the web.... checking email.... b/c he's constantly bombarded by Microsoft telling him to update this.. update that... spyware/adware crap... etc.

I put Linspire on his computer.... I set it to automatically update software etc. He's happy; and much more productive.

My girlfriend... also not a big computer person.... likes her Linux install more than her Windows install. When I asked her why... "it's so much faster... there's so much more you can do... alot more programs available to you... you don't get all those damn popups and crap... and it's as easy to use and Windows"

User friendly popular distros:
- Xandros
- Linspire
- Kubuntu
- Mandriva

And just slightly behind those...
- Fedora

The best determinate of a programs security is:
- How fast it is patched
- How well new code is being scrutinized before inclusion.

To give a great example of the benefits....
- Microsoft IIS often takes weeks or even months to release a patch. Apache patches most things **SAME DAY**.
- At Microsoft... being very generous... 10,000 people may scrutinize code in Windows. With Linux... being conservative... 250,000 scrutinize code. And anybody else who wants to look at the code and judge it for themselves can do so; and send in a patch for improvements/fixes. People who don't know better seem to peg Linux as an OS used mostly on servers... with maybe < 5,000,000 desktop users. As of two years ago, the count for Linux users was over 80,000,000.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

NavyDoc69 Wrote:Linux right now is not user friendly at all.&nbsp; Hell even today with MS being as friendly as it is you still have a huge segment of the work force who are completely intimidated by just having to double click an icon to open a file.&nbsp; Moreless the kind of involvement required for a Linux based system.&nbsp; So honestly I think you are going to have to have a complete turn over of the work force before this actually happens.

Also I question the security of Linux, MAC OS, Opera and Firefox.&nbsp; I still believe the main reason these OS's ands Apps are "More Secure" then MS based stuff is the fact that the Global destruction that can be done by attacking MS based computers is much larger which is why there are some many things being written to attack MS based boxes.&nbsp; It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years as Linux and MAC gain users and MS continues to plug holes (I know there will always be holes) if the hacker community will start looking to ways to attack these other "Supposedly" safe OS's and Apps.&nbsp; Cause you know just as well as I do someone out there is just waiting in the wings it write the first major virus for Linux they just need it to be worth their effort to write the virus!&nbsp; NO Application or OS is completely safe and if you think it is there is someone waiting to show you just how unsafe it is!!!!

That's a joke. When I first started using Linux (Mandrake Linux 8.0 ... around 2000)... user friendlyness was just coming into its own. There's a host of distros that are flat out EASY to use now. In fact, many of them are easier to install than Windows. My neighbor is 72. He finds usings Windows at times daunting for basic tasks like browsing the web.... checking email.... b/c he's constantly bombarded by Microsoft telling him to update this.. update that... spyware/adware crap... etc.

I put Linspire on his computer.... I set it to automatically update software etc. He's happy; and much more productive.

My girlfriend... also not a big computer person.... likes her Linux install more than her Windows install. When I asked her why... "it's so much faster... there's so much more you can do... alot more programs available to you... you don't get all those damn popups and crap... and it's as easy to use and Windows"

User friendly popular distros:
- Xandros
- Linspire
- Kubuntu
- Mandriva

And just slightly behind those...
- Fedora

The best determinate of a programs security is:
- How fast it is patched
- How well new code is being scrutinized before inclusion.

To give a great example of the benefits....
- Microsoft IIS often takes weeks or even months to release a patch. Apache patches most things **SAME DAY**.
- At Microsoft... being very generous... 10,000 people may scrutinize code in Windows. With Linux... being conservative... 250,000 scrutinize code. And anybody else who wants to look at the code and judge it for themselves can do so; and send in a patch for improvements/fixes. People who don't know better seem to peg Linux as an OS used mostly on servers... with maybe < 5,000,000 desktop users. As of two years ago, the count for Linux users was over 80,000,000.

But again you didn't and probably can't dispute the fact that once there is a large enough user based to make it worth while for hackers there will be viruses aimed at these "Secure" environments.

Um... there already are strong coordinated and organized attacks on Linux. If you want to hack into a server with *serious* goods on it... you'll be hacking a Linux server.

Of the top 100 sites in the world; fewer than 10 use Microsoft Server / IIS. Around 25 use FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD or Solaris. All the rest use Linux.

An overwhelming majority of high-profile targets on the net are using Linux or *BSD.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Um... there already are strong coordinated and organized attacks on Linux. If you want to hack into a server with *serious* goods on it... you'll be hacking a Linux server.

Of the top 100 sites in the world; fewer than 10 use Microsoft Server / IIS. Around 25 use FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD or Solaris. All the rest use Linux.

An overwhelming majority of high-profile targets on the net are using Linux or *BSD.

Granted but let me be a little more detailed. Spyware/MalWare and desktop viruses, Trojan Horses and the like is more what I was talking about the ones that will affect an end-user.

NavyDoc69 Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Um... there already are strong coordinated and organized attacks on Linux.&nbsp; If you want to hack into a server with *serious* goods on it... you'll be hacking a Linux server.

Of the top 100 sites in the world; fewer than 10 use Microsoft Server / IIS.&nbsp; &nbsp; Around 25 use FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD or Solaris.&nbsp; All the rest use Linux.

An overwhelming majority of high-profile targets on the net are using Linux or *BSD.

Granted but let me be a little more detailed. Spyware/MalWare and desktop viruses, Trojan Horses and the like is more what I was talking about the ones that will affect an end-user.

A typical Windows user is running everything with full system priviledges.

A typical Linux user is running everything with no system priviledges unless they've been granted by the administrator.

In Linux, if something were to take over a user account; it could do no more damage than that user's directory. In Windows... game over.

Another great example.... how many people do you know that just use Firefox that complain about malware/spyware taking over? Now how many people do you know that use MSIE as their main browser that complain about being raped?

Hey, look at me everybody...I just downloaded and booted my first Linux distro! (Knoppix LiveCD, per GTS baby-steps progression posted above). It took a little time and effort, but not too bad. I first tried to download by http or FTP from Purdue's mirror site which went really slowly and apparently stalled out halfway thru (I had gone to bed). So I got Bittorrent instead which was much faster. I ran a checksum utility which wasn't real intuitive at first but I think I figured it out. Then I had to get the Win Explorer isoRecorder plug-in to burn the CD image correctly (after wasting a couple of CD-R's). Popped the CD in the desktop box and it booted right up. Next step will be exploring the user interfaces and trying to connect the cable modem. I think I'm gonna like it.

Quote: There's a host of distros that are flat out EASY to use now. In fact, many of them are easier to install than Windows. My neighbor is 72. He finds usings Windows at times daunting for basic tasks like browsing the web.... checking email.... b/c he's constantly bombarded by Microsoft telling him to update this.. update that... spyware/adware crap... etc.

I put Linspire on his computer.... I set it to automatically update software etc. He's happy; and much more productive.

The biggest thing for me is that I was too stupid to install stuff (I imagine I'm not the only one)... but I have been reading about Linspire. 'Click & Run' seems to be just what dummies like me need.

BamaBlazer Wrote:

Quote: There's a host of distros that are flat out EASY to use now. In fact, many of them are easier to install than Windows. My neighbor is 72. He finds usings Windows at times daunting for basic tasks like browsing the web.... checking email.... b/c he's constantly bombarded by Microsoft telling him to update this.. update that... spyware/adware crap... etc.

I put Linspire on his computer.... I set it to automatically update software etc. He's happy; and much more productive.

The biggest thing for me is that I was too stupid to install stuff (I imagine I'm not the only one)... but I have been reading about Linspire. 'Click & Run' seems to be just what dummies like me need.

Most, if not all, of the newbie friendly distros GTS listed do that. Download what you want, click on the right file (usually named 'install' or 'configure') and there ya go. That, or their packaging system does it for you (Xandros/apt-get, Gentoo/Portage, etc).

:withstupid: