Biblical passage then?

Edit: For the time period of a soul's formation.

cant_think_of_a_witty_name Wrote:Biblical passage then?

Edit: For the time period of a soul's formation.

Read Psalm 139 and maybe you'll get it. But why are you even trying, you obviously don't believe.

JTiger Wrote:

cant_think_of_a_witty_name Wrote:Biblical passage then?

Edit: For the time period of a soul's formation.

Read Psalm 139 and maybe you'll get it. But why are you even trying, you obviously don't believe.

Using a "soul" WOULD be considered unconstitutional. When there is a heartbeat, it is a living being. Just my 2 cents

You'd do well not to assume my beliefs. I'm just trying to get information. It's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of trying to find out where you found out when a soul comes into being.

Edit: Not for Kev.

In retrospect, I can't believe how poorly I worded that post.

cant_think_of_a_witty_name Wrote:You'd do well not to assume my beliefs. I'm just trying to get information. It's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of trying to find out where you found out when a soul comes into being.

Edit: Not for Kev.

If you want information about the soul, in my opinion, read the Bible. I don't think there is any better reference than that. My passage still stands for when a soul comes into being.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

gruehls Wrote:it's about what establishes us as human, and if you believe we have some defining, unique element that makes us different from dogs or worms or zits, the compelling question must be "when do we gain that uniqueness?"

Quite simply the brain. Which forms at the end of the 4-to-8 week (6-to-10th week of pregnancy).

that might be an analysis worth pursuing, though it leaves quite a lot of wiggle room. and it avoids the issue of "uniqueness" as all higher forms of life have brains. what makes ours different?

in any event, it is not the analysis of roe v. wade.

if for no reason other than the technological advances made in "viability," that decision needs to be revisited and dumped.

gruehls Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

gruehls Wrote:it's about what establishes us as human, and if you believe we have some defining, unique element that makes us different from dogs or worms or zits, the compelling question must be "when do we gain that uniqueness?"

Quite simply the brain. Which forms at the end of the 4-to-8 week (6-to-10th week of pregnancy).

that might be an analysis worth pursuing, though it leaves quite a lot of wiggle room. and it avoids the issue of "uniqueness" as all higher forms of life have brains. what makes ours different?

in any event, it is not the analysis of roe v. wade.

if for no reason other than the technological advances made in "viability," that decision needs to be revisited and dumped.

Basically... when has the brain gained rudimentary functionality. I doubt this can be easily and unobtrusively detected at this moment in time; thus you have to go by the time the brain begins to (rapidly) form. That occurs late in the 4-to-8 week period (around 7 to 8 weeks)

RebelKev Wrote:Using a "soul" WOULD be considered unconstitutional. When there is a heartbeat, it is a living being. Just my 2 cents

Even if the heart is merely a rhythmic muscle action ... and the heart isn't even pumping blood yet... and there is no central nervous system present at all (including spinal cord; brain; nerves; sensory perception) yet?? Does this mean that people with an artificial heart are dead?

What's the one thing that medical science can not (and will never) be able to replace that truly defines your existance? Your brain.

JTiger Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

gruehls Wrote:it's about what establishes us as human, and if you believe we have some defining, unique element that makes us different from dogs or worms or zits, the compelling question must be "when do we gain that uniqueness?"

Quite simply the brain. Which forms at the end of the 4-to-8 week (6-to-10th week of pregnancy).

I would say our soul establishes us as humans, which is fully developed at the point of conception, IMO.

Seperation of church and state. With regards to the ultimate goal of this argument (legislation) -- this argument should be thrown out.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Basically... when has the brain gained rudimentary functionality.  I doubt this can be easily and unobtrusively detected at this moment in time; thus you have to go by the time the brain begins to (rapidly) form.  That occurs late in the 4-to-8 week period (around 7 to 8 weeks)

well, what makes our rudimentary brain functions different from, say, cows or sheep? because if they're the same, i'll feel real bad about eating burgers, steaks and lambchops.

either we're different from other animals for some reason, or we aren't.

if you accept that we are, i ask again, "what makes us unique?"

if we aren't, why do we need laws to govern society, and why isn't survival of the fittest the best way to go?

gruehls Wrote:well, what makes our rudimentary brain functions different from, say, cows or sheep? because if they're the same, i'll feel real bad about eating burgers, steaks and lambchops.

either we're different from other animals for some reason, or we aren't.

if you accept that we are, i ask again, "what makes us unique?"

if we aren't, why do we need laws to govern society, and why isn't survival of the fittest the best way to go?

What makes us different from the rest of the animal kingdom is intelligence... superior intelligence unmatched anywhere else. Intelligence comes from the brain. Since it's impossible to determine if a fetus has gained "intelligent" brain functionality -- we err on the safe side (the beginning of rapid brain development)

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

gruehls Wrote:well, what makes our rudimentary brain functions different from, say, cows or sheep? because if they're the same, i'll feel real bad about eating  burgers, steaks and lambchops.

either we're different from other animals  for some reason, or we aren't.

if you accept that we are, i ask again, "what makes us unique?"

if we aren't, why do we need laws to govern society, and why isn't survival of the fittest the best way to go?

What makes us different from the rest of the animal kingdom is intelligence... superior intelligence unmatched anywhere else. Intelligence comes from the brain. Since it's impossible to determine if a fetus has gained "intelligent" brain functionality -- we err on the safe side (the beginning of rapid brain development)

what's the measuring stick, and what's the cut off?

is a chimp or a dolphin with better measurable "intelligence" than a down's syndrome child more deserving of protection? when do we start measuring?

when does the potential for intelligence outweigh the reality?

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:Using a "soul" WOULD be considered unconstitutional. When there is a heartbeat, it is a living being. Just my 2 cents

Even if the heart is merely a rhythmic muscle action ... and the heart isn't even pumping blood yet... and there is no central nervous system present at all (including spinal cord; brain; nerves; sensory perception) yet?? Does this mean that people with an artificial heart are dead?

What's the one thing that medical science can not (and will never) be able to replace that truly defines your existance? Your brain.

I'm sorry, I don't think the heart functions without brain activity.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:Using a "soul" WOULD be considered unconstitutional. When there is a heartbeat, it is a living being. Just my 2 cents

Even if the heart is merely a rhythmic muscle action ... and the heart isn't even pumping blood yet... and there is no central nervous system present at all (including spinal cord; brain; nerves; sensory perception) yet?? Does this mean that people with an artificial heart are dead?

What's the one thing that medical science can not (and will never) be able to replace that truly defines your existance? Your brain.

Sorry crossover here. All I can think about is irreducible complexity.

Quote:I'm sorry, I don't think the heart functions without brain activity.

I'm no expert, but I believe the heart can beat without the brain. It has it's own regulation functions. Of course I'm thinking about it from the wrong side. Example: 1) If you decapitate a person their heart continues to beat for a short time. 2) A heart can be transplanted from one person to another sometimes over great distances.

I'm not sure which starts first the heart or the brain, but I don't think they are all the interconnected.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I'm no expert, but I believe the heart can beat without the brain. It has it's own regulation functions. Of course I'm thinking about it from the wrong side. Example:  1) If you decapitate a person their heart continues to beat for a short time. 2) A heart can be transplanted from one person to another sometimes over great distances.

I'm not sure which starts first the heart or the brain, but I don't think they are all the interconnected.

The heart, and all cardiac muscles, work at the behest of the nervous system. The brain controls the CNS. Cardiac muscle is involuntary, but it is controlled. Axons and Dendrites provide for the impulses that make the heart beat.

<!--QuoteBegin--georgia_tech_swagger+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (georgia_tech_swagger)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There isn't a scientist in the world that can classify a human embryo... immediately after conception.... as a human life. [/quote]

<a href='http://www.epm.org/articles/life_conception.html' target='_blank'>http://www.epm.org/articles/life_conception.html</a>

Quote:Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, "after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being." He stated that this "is no longer a matter of taste or opinion," and "not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence." He added, "Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Quote:Dr. Landrum Shettles was for twenty-seven years attending obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York. Shettles was a pioneer in sperm biology, fertility, and sterility. He is internationally famous for being the discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm. His intrauterine photographs of preborn children appear in over fifty medical textbooks. Dr. Shettles states,

"I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest—that human life commences at the time of conception—and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian." 6

also

Quote:Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

lol @ quoting a frenchie....


To be serious, however....

life commences at conception. However life is extremely vague and "easy" to achieve. Your sperm have life. The eggs have life. Your skin cells have life. Plants have life. The difference is whether we are discussing INTELLIGENT life... or life. At that moment, it is certainly not INTELLIGENT life, and thus has yet to achieve the very thing that defines us as human.... a brain capable of higher thought.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:... the very thing that defines us as human.... a brain capable of higher thought.

then when the brain loses that capability, do we cease to be human?

gruehls Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:lol @ quoting a frenchie....


To be serious, however....

life commences at conception.&nbsp; However life is extremely vague and "easy" to achieve.&nbsp; Your sperm have life.&nbsp; The eggs have life.&nbsp; Your skin cells have life.&nbsp; Plants have life.&nbsp; The difference is whether we are discussing INTELLIGENT life... or life.&nbsp; &nbsp; At that moment, it is certainly not INTELLIGENT life, and thus has yet to achieve the very thing that defines us as human.... a brain capable of higher thought.

then when the brain loses that capability, do we cease to be human?

Yes. For example.... doctors said Schiavo had no real brain functionality... thus it was legal for her to die (albeit in a way that was unhumane, which I was not a fan of).