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I never saw Black Hawk Down
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #21
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:Maybe you could just try.

I mean, I know you are GOD and all, but perhaps (yessuh, Bossman!) you could just lay out WHY my argument is "idiotic."

I dare you.
What's this Joe-boy -- are you the only one who can be permitted to refer to arguments as "ignorant" or idiotic, without a demonstration of why you suppose them "idiotic" or "ignorant"? Perhaps it is a privilege allowed only to professors,eh?

Anyway, while you may regard me as being "ignorant", I don't think I am. If you are such a moron as to suppose that we could have gone after bin Laden's group without taking on the Taliban as well -- in order to control the country so as to allow the operation against bin Laden, you dingbat -- you must be on crack. Just how did you suppose we would attack and possibly capture bin Laden without taking down the Taliban? Take them to the UN?

Now, as someone alluded to above, we could have done a better job in fielding a larger, more mobile force when we engaged al Queada. We didn't, and that was a political screw up. Its what you expect from politicians. Anyway, I don't recall that the civilian death rate was unacceptably high. Indeed, nothing like the casualties caused in those palmy days when your Russian friends were dropping small mines that looked like toys, which maimed a generation of Afghan children.
04-06-2004 07:40 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #22
 
Quote:What's this Joe-boy -- are you the only one who can be permitted to refer to arguments as "ignorant" or idiotic, without a demonstration of why you suppose them "idiotic" or "ignorant"?  Perhaps it is a privilege allowed only to professors,eh?

Hey, maybe you should just get some tissue and cry about it a little bit. If you'll look very carefully at the above posts, I'll bet you'll find my arguments contained therein.

Perhaps reading is a privilege allowed only for professors, eh? :wave:

Quote:Anyway, while you may regard me as being "ignorant", I don't think I am.  If you are such a moron as to suppose that we could have gone after bin Laden's group without taking on the Taliban as well -- in order to control the country so as to allow the operation against bin Laden, you dingbat -- you must be on crack.  Just how did you suppose we would attack and possibly capture bin Laden without taking down the Taliban?  Take them to the UN?

Did I refer to you as ignorant? If I did, I apologize. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that. :D

But I think your opinion about our role in Afghanistan is fairly simple-minded. If you remember, the Taliban was going to comply fully with our demand (and it was a demand) to turn over bin Laden provided that we prove he was responsible for 9-11.

We never proved that, did we? I could be completely wrong, but I believe we NEVER proved anything of the sort.

And, yeah, what's wrong with using the U.N. for diplomacy? As an attorney, you think the use of force as a first resort is a tenable position?

If you do, maybe you are more than just simple-minded. You could be a "ding-bat." Thanks Archie!

Quote:Now, as someone alluded to above, we could have done a better job in fielding a larger, more mobile force when we engaged al Queada.  We didn't, and that was a political screw up.  Its what you expect from politicians.  Anyway, I don't recall that the civilian death rate was unacceptably high.  Indeed, nothing like the casualties caused in those palmy days when your Russian friends were dropping small mines that looked like toys, which maimed a generation of Afghan children.

We can't engage al Queda! They're not a country! Can you stop with the 19th century Stratego tactic, der Kommisar?

And cynicism is okay when talking about the deaths of innocent civilians?

Hey, sorry dead kids! It's just politics as usual! My bad!

Perhaps the cynics in Fallujah are saying the same thing? Does that make it right?

As for civilian deaths, with just a cursory search I found numbers of 3,700 to 4 thousand. Anymore than one is unacceptable.

Here's a somewhat dated reaction to the U.S. invasion of a country which did not invade us:

<a href='http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav021402a.shtml' target='_blank'>http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insi...av021402a.shtml</a>

And the whole "it could have been worse" defense is laughable. Do better with your next response.
04-06-2004 10:45 AM
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #23
 
Well, lemme get this straight, JBR. You think that we should have just waited around until the Taliban got round to finding a good time to turn bin Laden over, right? Even though we had been attacked? Even though we would have been perfect fools to trust anything the Taliban represented? Even though bin Laden would have bribed them, and probably was? Even though Afghanistan was bin Laden's personal fiefdom? How gullible are you?

And lemme get this straight. Since we had been attacked, you think we should have gone crying to the UN about those bad boys in Afghanistan? Would you have had meaningful dialogue with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Right. you would have. Those simpering fools at the UN would have done nothing, other than to be sure that the vast fortune they were making from the Iraq sanctions wasn't disturbed. Remember that, my friend? And you trust the UN?

Think our armed reaction was too severe? Not at all. What is worse is to engage in a patty-cake kind of fight with an adversary. I say, if we get hit, we smack the ****** out of who hit us. Our attitude, to guote a line from "Thief", should be: We are the last people in the world you want to %$#@ with". When we demonstrate the truth of the attitude, we end it faster and save on the kind of suffering that comes from letting hostilities go on forever.

Why is the fact that al Quaeda is not a country significant? Do you suppose that you only fight a foe if they fit the template of clean, clearly drawn national lines as in World War II? Doesn't that seem to be simplistic?

As for civilian casualties, these are regretable but inevitable. And unlike wars in the past, every reasonable and technological effort is being made to keep them as low as possible. But they are going to happen. You do not, except in your Utopian world, set aside an important national interest because non-combatants may and will be killed.

I think, JBR, being a young man yet as you are, that you should sign up with the Army. I think it would do worlds for your direction in life and give you a more realistic view of things.
04-06-2004 06:24 PM
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DukeofDrums Offline
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Post: #24
 
Never seen Blackhawk Down? Rent it, read it. Knowledge is most dangerous when not posessed.
04-07-2004 04:25 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #25
 
"You think that we should have just waited around until the Taliban got round to finding a good time to turn bin Laden over, right?"

Nope. And I never said that, either. I think we should have pursued diplomatic channels FIRST.

"Even though we had been attacked?"

Were we attacked by Afghanistan? Nope. We were attacked by 19 criminals. They all died--trial over. No executions needed. If any country should've been attacked, it should've been Saudi Arabia.

Even if I grant that our attack of an innocent country was a good way to fight terrorism (which I won't, but I'll indulge you in your fantasy for a sec), how would doing that in any way deter terrorist cells in our country or elsewhere? They're not getting daily orders from bin Laden, you know. It's not a top-down hierarchy.

The only way to disarm al Queda is one cell at a time. Changing our foreign policy to actually promoting "democracy" instead of despotism would also be an encouraging step in the right direction.

"Even though we would have been perfect fools to trust anything the Taliban represented? Even though bin Laden would have bribed them, and probably was? Even though Afghanistan was bin Laden's personal fiefdom? How gullible are you?"

And did the Taliban attack us? And did they even know where he was? And how was Afghanistan his own personal fiefdom? I don't guess you really have any evidence for this mindless diatribe, do you? Hmmmmmm?

I know, I know. You heard it on Faux News. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

"Since we had been attacked, you think we should have gone crying to the UN about those bad boys in Afghanistan?"

Nothing like a little hearty cynicism to turn mild-mannered attorneys into raving lunatics. I mean, you don't even think it was worth a shot? Not one?

If the UN is so useless, why are we still a member of it?

"Would you have had meaningful dialogue with the Japanese after Pearl Harbor? Right. you would have."

This is really a pretty awful analogy, but thanks for providing a ready-made argument against yourself.

If 19 Japanese Kamikaze pilots killed themselves in a raid against Hawaii, then yes, I would not have attacked China either.

"Those simpering fools at the UN would have done nothing, other than to be sure that the vast fortune they were making from the Iraq sanctions wasn't disturbed. Remember that, my friend? And you trust the UN?"

Have you had your blood pressure checked lately? You sound a little on the edge, my friend.

"Think our armed reaction was too severe? Not at all. What is worse is to engage in a patty-cake kind of fight with an adversary. I say, if we get hit, we smack the ****** out of who hit us."

Yeah, look at how we cowed the rest of the world after Hiroshima. Nothing but peace after we showed everybody we were the wrong motherscratchers to mess with! Friggin' A!

"Our attitude, to guote a line from "Thief", should be: We are the last people in the world you want to %$#@ with". When we demonstrate the truth of the attitude, we end it faster and save on the kind of suffering that comes from letting hostilities go on forever."

See also: cycle of Violence (also, IRA v. UK, Israel v. PLO, US v. S. Vietnam etc.)

"Why is the fact that al Quaeda is not a country significant? Do you suppose that you only fight a foe if they fit the template of clean, clearly drawn national lines as in World War II? Doesn't that seem to be simplistic?"

Ummm, b/c there's no "country" to attack?

We could say that terrorists were being harbored by the U.S. Does that mean we should bomb Florida? Doesn't that seem to be simplistic?

"As for civilian casualties, these are regretable but inevitable. And unlike wars in the past, every reasonable and technological effort is being made to keep them as low as possible. But they are going to happen. You do not, except in your Utopian world, set aside an important national interest because non-combatants may and will be killed."

Yes, regrettable. No, not inevitable. We didn't have to bomb the hell out of a place that has already had the hell bombed out of it. We did. And we expect to present ourselves as "beacons of freedom."

What a laugher that one is!

I don't live in a Utopian world, Mr. Reality. I live in the world of consequences.

You, however, seem to live in a world with no consequences. In a world where bin Ladens just pop up out of the ground for no reason whatsoever.

Isn't it you, then, who are looking at the rosy world, dream walker? Preferring not to learn the awful truth because it just won't square with your ideologic baggage?

Perhaps it is you who should sign up for front-line fodder. It may be the first time in your life you've actually required a back bone. :wave:
04-07-2004 05:36 PM
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #26
 
Last evening I was having wine with Mrs Parker, admiring a beautiful Spring evening, when I saw a male duck chasing a female one. It was interesting to watch them, but I must say I was quite amused when the male duck flew right into a tree. When I got your post in this thread today, JBR, that poor duck came to mind.

JBR, let's do get our facts straight, shall we.
1. Attack Saudi Arabia? It may be that the 19 or most of them were from Saudi Arabia, but they were trained in Afghanistan and in the employ of bin Laden. bin Laden was then there as well. The Taliban did not attack us, but they were aiding and abetting those who did. Thus they were as guilty as those who did. And I say again that it would have been utterly foolish to believe the Taliban's vague offers, promises or whatever to one day, some place, give us bin Laden. We had been attacked, and if for no other reason than that it was essential to respond firmly and definitively against the locus of the attack.
2. Pursuing diplomatic channels? Please. What channels? Without a determination to act, what good is diplomacy? Wasn't time for all that nonsense. Delay would have been seen as weakness.
3. UN. We ought not to be in it, and certainly we should not be paying vast sums to sustain that corrupt, ineffective collection of babblers, spies, grifters and mobsters. I think the UN should move its headquarters from New York to the poorest nation in sub-Saharan Africa in an effort to provide an economic development tool for that country, and so that we won't have to hear that babble from that tower.
4. By no means should we fail to aggressively seek out cells here. That goes without saying, and I can't imagine why you would think that taking the war to the enemy abroad would be ignoring the enemy that may already be here. Good thing you aren't a general.
5. How do I know that Afghanistan was bin Laden's personal fiefdom? Because he was there and allowed to be there without interference from the Taliban. For crying out loud, that was where his training camps were.
6. You missed the point of the Pearl Harbor comment. Go read it again. The point was, going by your logic, we would have gone to the League of Nations after Pearl Harbor. Anyhow, yes, if striking Japan would have been better accomplished by attacking Japan's forces in China, we would have done that, and rightly so.
7. My blood pressure is fine. Your's seems a bit elevated.
8. Raving lunacy? Ignorance of consequences? I thought you meant to insult me. Instead you ignore me and speak of yourself. Think indeed of the consequences of failing to defeat these people who threaten us.
9. Nobody would have messed with us while we were the sole power with nuclear weapons. We were betrayed by Bolsheviks such as yourself in that way--remember? That is when the Cold War started in earnest,and the world became such a dangerous place.
10. There will always be war and rumour of war. I don't like it any more than you do, but liking it has nothing to do with it. I think you really have no understanding at all of the depth of hatred against us in that part of the world. I grant you that we do not help ourselves with our unfair and blind prejudice toward Israel, but I am sure you know how that has come to be. It is a political fact. There is nothing to do but to try to win this thing as soon as we can.
04-08-2004 06:45 PM
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #27
 
You should also recall, JBR, that we really did not engage Taliban forces. We provided intel, training and maybe weapons to the opposition, and they did most of the work. We did also drop some bombs to soften up Taliban positions, but we were just giving our new-found buddies a level playing field. I know, you will say that there is a very fine difference there, but I think it was aid along the lines of our help to the British (Lend-Lease, etc) before we got into WWII
04-08-2004 07:40 PM
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Post: #28
 
Funny. I see you as the duck arguing with the pole.

Perhaps you and he shall one day agree to disagree. I guess it's all in your perspective.

Nevertheless, the thread has now officially passed over the threshold of reasonable, spirited debate into vitriolic-dig-your-heels-in mud-fest.

I must, therefore, respectfully concede the argument. You may be right, Wry. But I, for one, say we simply should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That won't stop me, of course, from using an article by Howard Zinn as a way of making my point far more eloquently than I can myself. Enjoy.

Published in the December 2001 issue of The Progressive





A Just Cause, Not a Just War





by Howard Zinn



 

I believe two moral judgments can be made about the present "war": The September 11 attack constitutes a crime against humanity and cannot be justified, and the bombing of Afghanistan is also a crime, which cannot be justified.

And yet, voices across the political spectrum, including many on the left, have described this as a "just war." One longtime advocate of peace, Richard Falk, wrote in The Nation that this is "the first truly just war since World War II." Robert Kuttner, another consistent supporter of social justice, declared in The American Prospect that only people on the extreme left could believe this is not a just war.




I have puzzled over this. How can a war be truly just when it involves the daily killing of civilians, when it causes hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to leave their homes to escape the bombs, when it may not find those who planned the September 11 attacks, and when it will multiply the ranks of people who are angry enough at this country to become terrorists themselves?




This war amounts to a gross violation of human rights, and it will produce the exact opposite of what is wanted: It will not end terrorism; it will proliferate terrorism.




I believe that the progressive supporters of the war have confused a "just cause" with a "just war." There are unjust causes, such as the attempt of the United States to establish its power in Vietnam, or to dominate Panama or Grenada, or to subvert the government of Nicaragua. And a cause may be just--getting North Korea to withdraw from South Korea, getting Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait, or ending terrorism--but it does not follow that going to war on behalf of that cause, with the inevitable mayhem that follows, is just.




The stories of the effects of our bombing are beginning to come through, in bits and pieces. Just eighteen days into the bombing, The New York Times reported: "American forces have mistakenly hit a residential area in Kabul." Twice, U.S. planes bombed Red Cross warehouses, and a Red Cross spokesman said: "Now we've got 55,000 people without that food or blankets, with nothing at all."




An Afghan elementary school-teacher told a Washington Post reporter at the Pakistan border: "When the bombs fell near my house and my babies started crying, I had no choice but to run away."




A New York Times report: "The Pentagon acknowledged that a Navy F/A-18 dropped a 1,000-pound bomb on Sunday near what officials called a center for the elderly. . . . The United Nations said the building was a military hospital. . . . Several hours later, a Navy F-14 dropped two 500-pound bombs on a residential area northwest of Kabul." A U.N. official told a New York Times reporter that an American bombing raid on the city of Herat had used cluster bombs, which spread deadly "bomblets" over an area of twenty football fields. This, the Times reporter wrote,"was the latest of a growing number of accounts of American bombs going astray and causing civilian casualties."




An A.P. reporter was brought to Karam, a small mountain village hit by American bombs, and saw houses reduced to rubble. "In the hospital in Jalalabad, twenty-five miles to the east, doctors treated what they said were twenty-three victims of bombing at Karam, one a child barely two months old, swathed in bloody bandages," according to the account. "Another child, neighbors said, was in the hospital because the bombing raid had killed her entire family. At least eighteen fresh graves were scattered around the village."




The city of Kandahar, attacked for seventeen straight days, was reported to be a ghost town, with more than half of its 500,000 people fleeing the bombs. The city's electrical grid had been knocked out. The city was deprived of water, since the electrical pumps could not operate. A sixty-year-old farmer told the A.P. reporter, "We left in fear of our lives. Every day and every night, we hear the roaring and roaring of planes, we see the smoke, the fire. . . . I curse them both--the Taliban and America."




A New York Times report from Pakistan two weeks into the bombing campaign told of wounded civilians coming across the border. "Every half-hour or so throughout the day, someone was brought across on a stretcher. . . . Most were bomb victims, missing limbs or punctured by shrapnel. . . . A young boy, his head and one leg wrapped in bloodied bandages, clung to his father's back as the old man trudged back to Afghanistan."




That was only a few weeks into the bombing, and the result had already been to frighten hundreds of thousands of Afghans into abandoning their homes and taking to the dangerous, mine-strewn roads. The "war against terrorism" has become a war against innocent men, women, and children, who are in no way responsible for the terrorist attack on New York.




And yet there are those who say this is a "just war."




Terrorism and war have something in common. They both involve the killing of innocent people to achieve what the killers believe is a good end. I can see an immediate objection to this equation: They (the terrorists) deliberately kill innocent people; we (the war makers) aim at "military targets," and civilians are killed by accident, as "collateral damage."




Is it really an accident when civilians die under our bombs? Even if you grant that the intention is not to kill civilians, if they nevertheless become victims, again and again and again, can that be called an accident? If the deaths of civilians are inevitable in bombing, it may not be deliberate, but it is not an accident, and the bombers cannot be considered innocent. They are committing murder as surely as are the terrorists.




The absurdity of claiming innocence in such cases becomes apparent when the death tolls from "collateral damage" reach figures far greater than the lists of the dead from even the most awful act of terrorism. Thus, the "collateral damage" in the Gulf War caused more people to die--hundreds of thousands, if you include the victims of our sanctions policy--than the very deliberate terrorist attack of September 11. The total of those who have died in Israel from Palestinian terrorist bombs is somewhere under 1,000. The number of dead from "collateral damage" in the bombing of Beirut during Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was roughly 6,000.




We must not match the death lists--it is an ugly exercise--as if one atrocity is worse than another. No killing of innocents, whether deliberate or "accidental," can be justified. My argument is that when children die at the hands of terrorists, or--whether intended or not--as a result of bombs dropped from airplanes, terrorism and war become equally unpardonable.




Let's talk about "military targets." The phrase is so loose that President Truman, after the nuclear bomb obliterated the population of Hiroshima, could say: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."




What we are hearing now from our political leaders is, "We are targeting military objectives. We are trying to avoid killing civilians. But that will happen, and we regret it." Shall the American people take moral comfort from the thought that we are bombing only "military targets"?




The reality is that the term "military" covers all sorts of targets that include civilian populations. When our bombers deliberately destroy, as they did in the war against Iraq, the electrical infrastructure, thus making water purification and sewage treatment plants inoperable and leading to epidemic waterborne diseases, the deaths of children and other civilians cannot be called accidental.




Recall that in the midst of the Gulf War, the U.S. military bombed an air raid shelter, killing 400 to 500 men, women, and children who were huddled to escape bombs. The claim was that it was a military target, housing a communications center, but reporters going through the ruins immediately afterward said there was no sign of anything like that.




I suggest that the history of bombing--and no one has bombed more than this nation--is a history of endless atrocities, all calmly explained by deceptive and deadly language like "accident," "military targets," and "collateral damage."




Indeed, in both World War II and in Vietnam, the historical record shows that there was a deliberate decision to target civilians in order to destroy the morale of the enemy--hence the firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, the B-52s over Hanoi, the jet bombers over peaceful villages in the Vietnam countryside. When some argue that we can engage in "limited military action" without "an excessive use of force," they are ignoring the history of bombing. The momentum of war rides roughshod over limits.




The moral equation in Afghanistan is clear. Civilian casualties are certain. The outcome is uncertain. No one knows what this bombing will accomplish--whether it will lead to the capture of Osama Bin Laden (perhaps), or the end of the Taliban (possibly), or a democratic Afghanistan (very unlikely), or an end to terrorism (almost certainly not).




And meanwhile, we are terrorizing the population (not the terrorists, they are not easily terrorized). Hundreds of thousands are packing their belongings and their children onto carts and leaving their homes to make dangerous journeys to places they think might be more safe.




Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a "war against terrorism."




We might examine the idea of pacifism in the light of what is going on right now. I have never used the word "pacifist" to describe myself, because it suggests something absolute, and I am suspicious of absolutes. I want to leave openings for unpredictable possibilities. There might be situations (and even such strong pacifists as Gandhi and Martin Luther King believed this) when a small, focused act of violence against a monstrous, immediate evil would be justified.




In war, however, the proportion of means to ends is very, very different. War, by its nature, is unfocused, indiscriminate, and especially in our time when the technology is so murderous, inevitably involves the deaths of large numbers of people and the suffering of even more. Even in the "small wars" (Iran vs. Iraq, the Nigerian war, the Afghan war), a million people die. Even in a "tiny" war like the one we waged in Panama, a thousand or more die.




Scott Simon of NPR wrote a commentary in The Wall Street Journal on October 11 entitled, "Even Pacifists Must Support This War." He tried to use the pacifist acceptance of self-defense, which approves a focused resistance to an immediate attacker, to justify this war, which he claims is "self-defense." But the term "self-defense" does not apply when you drop bombs all over a country and kill lots of people other than your attacker. And it doesn't apply when there is no likelihood that it will achieve its desired end.




Pacifism, which I define as a rejection of war, rests on a very powerful logic. In war, the means--indiscriminate killing--are immediate and certain; the ends, however desirable, are distant and uncertain.




Pacifism does not mean "appeasement." That word is often hurled at those who condemn the present war on Afghanistan, and it is accompanied by references to Churchill, Chamberlain, Munich. World War II analogies are conveniently summoned forth when there is a need to justify a war, however irrelevant to a particular situation. At the suggestion that we withdraw from Vietnam, or not make war on Iraq, the word "appeasement" was bandied about. The glow of the "good war" has repeatedly been used to obscure the nature of all the bad wars we have fought since 1945.




Let's examine that analogy. Czechoslovakia was handed to the voracious Hitler to "appease" him. Germany was an aggressive nation expanding its power, and to help it in its expansion was not wise. But today we do not face an expansionist power that demands to be appeased. We ourselves are the expansionist power--troops in Saudi Arabia, bombings of Iraq, military bases all over the world, naval vessels on every sea--and that, along with Israel's expansion into the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has aroused anger.




It was wrong to give up Czechoslovakia to appease Hitler. It is not wrong to withdraw our military from the Middle East, or for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories, because there is no right to be there. That is not appeasement. That is justice.




Opposing the bombing of Afghanistan does not constitute "giving in to terrorism" or "appeasement." It asks that other means be found than war to solve the problems that confront us. King and Gandhi both believed in action--nonviolent direct action, which is more powerful and certainly more morally defensible than war.




To reject war is not to "turn the other cheek," as pacifism has been caricatured. It is, in the present instance, to act in ways that do not imitate the terrorists.




The United States could have treated the September 11 attack as a horrific criminal act that calls for apprehending the culprits, using every device of intelligence and investigation possible. It could have gone to the United Nations to enlist the aid of other countries in the pursuit and apprehension of the terrorists.




There was also the avenue of negotiations. (And let's not hear: "What? Negotiate with those monsters?" The United States negotiated with--indeed, brought into power and kept in power--some of the most monstrous governments in the world.) Before Bush ordered in the bombers, the Taliban offered to put bin Laden on trial. This was ignored. After ten days of air attacks, when the Taliban called for a halt to the bombing and said they would be willing to talk about handing bin Laden to a third country for trial, the headline the next day in The New York Times read: "President Rejects Offer by Taliban for Negotiations," and Bush was quoted as saying: "When I said no negotiations, I meant no negotiations."




That is the behavior of someone hellbent on war. There were similar rejections of negotiating possibilities at the start of the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, the Gulf War, and the bombing of Yugoslavia. The result was an immense loss of life and incalculable human suffering.




International police work and negotiations were--still are--alternatives to war. But let's not deceive ourselves; even if we succeeded in apprehending bin Laden or, as is unlikely, destroying the entire Al Qaeda network, that would not end the threat of terrorism, which has potential recruits far beyond Al Qaeda.




To get at the roots of terrorism is complicated. Dropping bombs is simple. It is an old response to what everyone acknowledges is a very new situation. At the core of unspeakable and unjustifiable acts of terrorism are justified grievances felt by millions of people who would not themselves engage in terrorism but from whose ranks terrorists spring.




Those grievances are of two kinds: the existence of profound misery-- hunger, illness--in much of the world, contrasted to the wealth and luxury of the West, especially the United States; and the presence of American military power everywhere in the world, propping up oppressive regimes and repeatedly intervening with force to maintain U.S. hegemony.




This suggests actions that not only deal with the long-term problem of terrorism but are in themselves just.




Instead of using two planes a day to drop food on Afghanistan and 100 planes to drop bombs (which have been making it difficult for the trucks of the international agencies to bring in food), use 102 planes to bring food.




Take the money allocated for our huge military machine and use it to combat starvation and disease around the world. One-third of our military budget would annually provide clean water and sanitation facilities for the billion people in the world who have none.




Withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia, because their presence near the holy shrines of Mecca and Medina angers not just bin Laden (we need not care about angering him) but huge numbers of Arabs who are not terrorists.




Stop the cruel sanctions on Iraq, which are killing more than a thousand children every week without doing anything to weaken Saddam Hussein's tyrannical hold over the country.




Insist that Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, something that many Israelis also think is right, and which will make Israel more secure than it is now.




In short, let us pull back from being a military superpower, and become a humanitarian superpower.




Let us be a more modest nation. We will then be more secure. The modest nations of the world don't face the threat of terrorism.




Such a fundamental change in foreign policy is hardly to be expected. It would threaten too many interests: the power of political leaders, the ambitions of the military, the corporations that profit from the nation's enormous military commitments.




Change will come, as at other times in our history, only when American citizens-- becoming better informed, having second thoughts after the first instinctive support for official policy--demand it. That change in citizen opinion, especially if it coincides with a pragmatic decision by the government that its violence isn't working, could bring about a retreat from the military solution.




It might also be a first step in the rethinking of our nation's role in the world. Such a rethinking contains the promise, for Americans, of genuine security, and for people elsewhere, the beginning of hope.

Copyright 2001, The Progressive, Madison, WI
04-12-2004 07:43 PM
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Post: #29
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:Funny. I see you as the duck arguing with the pole.

Perhaps you and he shall one day agree to disagree. I guess it's all in your perspective.

Nevertheless, the thread has now officially passed over the threshold of reasonable, spirited debate into vitriolic-dig-your-heels-in mud-fest.

I must, therefore, respectfully concede the argument. You may be right, Wry. But I, for one, say we simply should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That won't stop me, of course, from using an article by Howard Zinn as a way of making my point far more eloquently than I can myself. Enjoy.

Published in the December 2001 issue of The Progressive





A Just Cause, Not a Just War





by Howard Zinn



 

I believe two moral judgments can be made about the present "war": The September 11 attack constitutes a crime against humanity and cannot be justified, and the bombing of Afghanistan is also a crime, which cannot be justified.

And yet, voices across the political spectrum, including many on the left, have described this as a "just war." One longtime advocate of peace, Richard Falk, wrote in The Nation that this is "the first truly just war since World War II." Robert Kuttner, another consistent supporter of social justice, declared in The American Prospect that only people on the extreme left could believe this is not a just war.




I have puzzled over this. How can a war be truly just when it involves the daily killing of civilians, when it causes hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to leave their homes to escape the bombs, when it may not find those who planned the September 11 attacks, and when it will multiply the ranks of people who are angry enough at this country to become terrorists themselves?




This war amounts to a gross violation of human rights, and it will produce the exact opposite of what is wanted: It will not end terrorism; it will proliferate terrorism.




I believe that the progressive supporters of the war have confused a "just cause" with a "just war." There are unjust causes, such as the attempt of the United States to establish its power in Vietnam, or to dominate Panama or Grenada, or to subvert the government of Nicaragua. And a cause may be just--getting North Korea to withdraw from South Korea, getting Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait, or ending terrorism--but it does not follow that going to war on behalf of that cause, with the inevitable mayhem that follows, is just.




The stories of the effects of our bombing are beginning to come through, in bits and pieces. Just eighteen days into the bombing, The New York Times reported: "American forces have mistakenly hit a residential area in Kabul." Twice, U.S. planes bombed Red Cross warehouses, and a Red Cross spokesman said: "Now we've got 55,000 people without that food or blankets, with nothing at all."




An Afghan elementary school-teacher told a Washington Post reporter at the Pakistan border: "When the bombs fell near my house and my babies started crying, I had no choice but to run away."




A New York Times report: "The Pentagon acknowledged that a Navy F/A-18 dropped a 1,000-pound bomb on Sunday near what officials called a center for the elderly. . . . The United Nations said the building was a military hospital. . . . Several hours later, a Navy F-14 dropped two 500-pound bombs on a residential area northwest of Kabul." A U.N. official told a New York Times reporter that an American bombing raid on the city of Herat had used cluster bombs, which spread deadly "bomblets" over an area of twenty football fields. This, the Times reporter wrote,"was the latest of a growing number of accounts of American bombs going astray and causing civilian casualties."




An A.P. reporter was brought to Karam, a small mountain village hit by American bombs, and saw houses reduced to rubble. "In the hospital in Jalalabad, twenty-five miles to the east, doctors treated what they said were twenty-three victims of bombing at Karam, one a child barely two months old, swathed in bloody bandages," according to the account. "Another child, neighbors said, was in the hospital because the bombing raid had killed her entire family. At least eighteen fresh graves were scattered around the village."




The city of Kandahar, attacked for seventeen straight days, was reported to be a ghost town, with more than half of its 500,000 people fleeing the bombs. The city's electrical grid had been knocked out. The city was deprived of water, since the electrical pumps could not operate. A sixty-year-old farmer told the A.P. reporter, "We left in fear of our lives. Every day and every night, we hear the roaring and roaring of planes, we see the smoke, the fire. . . . I curse them both--the Taliban and America."




A New York Times report from Pakistan two weeks into the bombing campaign told of wounded civilians coming across the border. "Every half-hour or so throughout the day, someone was brought across on a stretcher. . . . Most were bomb victims, missing limbs or punctured by shrapnel. . . . A young boy, his head and one leg wrapped in bloodied bandages, clung to his father's back as the old man trudged back to Afghanistan."




That was only a few weeks into the bombing, and the result had already been to frighten hundreds of thousands of Afghans into abandoning their homes and taking to the dangerous, mine-strewn roads. The "war against terrorism" has become a war against innocent men, women, and children, who are in no way responsible for the terrorist attack on New York.




And yet there are those who say this is a "just war."




Terrorism and war have something in common. They both involve the killing of innocent people to achieve what the killers believe is a good end. I can see an immediate objection to this equation: They (the terrorists) deliberately kill innocent people; we (the war makers) aim at "military targets," and civilians are killed by accident, as "collateral damage."




Is it really an accident when civilians die under our bombs? Even if you grant that the intention is not to kill civilians, if they nevertheless become victims, again and again and again, can that be called an accident? If the deaths of civilians are inevitable in bombing, it may not be deliberate, but it is not an accident, and the bombers cannot be considered innocent. They are committing murder as surely as are the terrorists.




The absurdity of claiming innocence in such cases becomes apparent when the death tolls from "collateral damage" reach figures far greater than the lists of the dead from even the most awful act of terrorism. Thus, the "collateral damage" in the Gulf War caused more people to die--hundreds of thousands, if you include the victims of our sanctions policy--than the very deliberate terrorist attack of September 11. The total of those who have died in Israel from Palestinian terrorist bombs is somewhere under 1,000. The number of dead from "collateral damage" in the bombing of Beirut during Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was roughly 6,000.




We must not match the death lists--it is an ugly exercise--as if one atrocity is worse than another. No killing of innocents, whether deliberate or "accidental," can be justified. My argument is that when children die at the hands of terrorists, or--whether intended or not--as a result of bombs dropped from airplanes, terrorism and war become equally unpardonable.




Let's talk about "military targets." The phrase is so loose that President Truman, after the nuclear bomb obliterated the population of Hiroshima, could say: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."




What we are hearing now from our political leaders is, "We are targeting military objectives. We are trying to avoid killing civilians. But that will happen, and we regret it." Shall the American people take moral comfort from the thought that we are bombing only "military targets"?




The reality is that the term "military" covers all sorts of targets that include civilian populations. When our bombers deliberately destroy, as they did in the war against Iraq, the electrical infrastructure, thus making water purification and sewage treatment plants inoperable and leading to epidemic waterborne diseases, the deaths of children and other civilians cannot be called accidental.




Recall that in the midst of the Gulf War, the U.S. military bombed an air raid shelter, killing 400 to 500 men, women, and children who were huddled to escape bombs. The claim was that it was a military target, housing a communications center, but reporters going through the ruins immediately afterward said there was no sign of anything like that.




I suggest that the history of bombing--and no one has bombed more than this nation--is a history of endless atrocities, all calmly explained by deceptive and deadly language like "accident," "military targets," and "collateral damage."




Indeed, in both World War II and in Vietnam, the historical record shows that there was a deliberate decision to target civilians in order to destroy the morale of the enemy--hence the firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, the B-52s over Hanoi, the jet bombers over peaceful villages in the Vietnam countryside. When some argue that we can engage in "limited military action" without "an excessive use of force," they are ignoring the history of bombing. The momentum of war rides roughshod over limits.




The moral equation in Afghanistan is clear. Civilian casualties are certain. The outcome is uncertain. No one knows what this bombing will accomplish--whether it will lead to the capture of Osama Bin Laden (perhaps), or the end of the Taliban (possibly), or a democratic Afghanistan (very unlikely), or an end to terrorism (almost certainly not).




And meanwhile, we are terrorizing the population (not the terrorists, they are not easily terrorized). Hundreds of thousands are packing their belongings and their children onto carts and leaving their homes to make dangerous journeys to places they think might be more safe.




Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a "war against terrorism."




We might examine the idea of pacifism in the light of what is going on right now. I have never used the word "pacifist" to describe myself, because it suggests something absolute, and I am suspicious of absolutes. I want to leave openings for unpredictable possibilities. There might be situations (and even such strong pacifists as Gandhi and Martin Luther King believed this) when a small, focused act of violence against a monstrous, immediate evil would be justified.




In war, however, the proportion of means to ends is very, very different. War, by its nature, is unfocused, indiscriminate, and especially in our time when the technology is so murderous, inevitably involves the deaths of large numbers of people and the suffering of even more. Even in the "small wars" (Iran vs. Iraq, the Nigerian war, the Afghan war), a million people die. Even in a "tiny" war like the one we waged in Panama, a thousand or more die.




Scott Simon of NPR wrote a commentary in The Wall Street Journal on October 11 entitled, "Even Pacifists Must Support This War." He tried to use the pacifist acceptance of self-defense, which approves a focused resistance to an immediate attacker, to justify this war, which he claims is "self-defense." But the term "self-defense" does not apply when you drop bombs all over a country and kill lots of people other than your attacker. And it doesn't apply when there is no likelihood that it will achieve its desired end.




Pacifism, which I define as a rejection of war, rests on a very powerful logic. In war, the means--indiscriminate killing--are immediate and certain; the ends, however desirable, are distant and uncertain.




Pacifism does not mean "appeasement." That word is often hurled at those who condemn the present war on Afghanistan, and it is accompanied by references to Churchill, Chamberlain, Munich. World War II analogies are conveniently summoned forth when there is a need to justify a war, however irrelevant to a particular situation. At the suggestion that we withdraw from Vietnam, or not make war on Iraq, the word "appeasement" was bandied about. The glow of the "good war" has repeatedly been used to obscure the nature of all the bad wars we have fought since 1945.




Let's examine that analogy. Czechoslovakia was handed to the voracious Hitler to "appease" him. Germany was an aggressive nation expanding its power, and to help it in its expansion was not wise. But today we do not face an expansionist power that demands to be appeased. We ourselves are the expansionist power--troops in Saudi Arabia, bombings of Iraq, military bases all over the world, naval vessels on every sea--and that, along with Israel's expansion into the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has aroused anger.




It was wrong to give up Czechoslovakia to appease Hitler. It is not wrong to withdraw our military from the Middle East, or for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories, because there is no right to be there. That is not appeasement. That is justice.




Opposing the bombing of Afghanistan does not constitute "giving in to terrorism" or "appeasement." It asks that other means be found than war to solve the problems that confront us. King and Gandhi both believed in action--nonviolent direct action, which is more powerful and certainly more morally defensible than war.




To reject war is not to "turn the other cheek," as pacifism has been caricatured. It is, in the present instance, to act in ways that do not imitate the terrorists.




The United States could have treated the September 11 attack as a horrific criminal act that calls for apprehending the culprits, using every device of intelligence and investigation possible. It could have gone to the United Nations to enlist the aid of other countries in the pursuit and apprehension of the terrorists.




There was also the avenue of negotiations. (And let's not hear: "What? Negotiate with those monsters?" The United States negotiated with--indeed, brought into power and kept in power--some of the most monstrous governments in the world.) Before Bush ordered in the bombers, the Taliban offered to put bin Laden on trial. This was ignored. After ten days of air attacks, when the Taliban called for a halt to the bombing and said they would be willing to talk about handing bin Laden to a third country for trial, the headline the next day in The New York Times read: "President Rejects Offer by Taliban for Negotiations," and Bush was quoted as saying: "When I said no negotiations, I meant no negotiations."




That is the behavior of someone hellbent on war. There were similar rejections of negotiating possibilities at the start of the Korean War, the war in Vietnam, the Gulf War, and the bombing of Yugoslavia. The result was an immense loss of life and incalculable human suffering.




International police work and negotiations were--still are--alternatives to war. But let's not deceive ourselves; even if we succeeded in apprehending bin Laden or, as is unlikely, destroying the entire Al Qaeda network, that would not end the threat of terrorism, which has potential recruits far beyond Al Qaeda.




To get at the roots of terrorism is complicated. Dropping bombs is simple. It is an old response to what everyone acknowledges is a very new situation. At the core of unspeakable and unjustifiable acts of terrorism are justified grievances felt by millions of people who would not themselves engage in terrorism but from whose ranks terrorists spring.




Those grievances are of two kinds: the existence of profound misery-- hunger, illness--in much of the world, contrasted to the wealth and luxury of the West, especially the United States; and the presence of American military power everywhere in the world, propping up oppressive regimes and repeatedly intervening with force to maintain U.S. hegemony.




This suggests actions that not only deal with the long-term problem of terrorism but are in themselves just.




Instead of using two planes a day to drop food on Afghanistan and 100 planes to drop bombs (which have been making it difficult for the trucks of the international agencies to bring in food), use 102 planes to bring food.




Take the money allocated for our huge military machine and use it to combat starvation and disease around the world. One-third of our military budget would annually provide clean water and sanitation facilities for the billion people in the world who have none.




Withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia, because their presence near the holy shrines of Mecca and Medina angers not just bin Laden (we need not care about angering him) but huge numbers of Arabs who are not terrorists.




Stop the cruel sanctions on Iraq, which are killing more than a thousand children every week without doing anything to weaken Saddam Hussein's tyrannical hold over the country.




Insist that Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, something that many Israelis also think is right, and which will make Israel more secure than it is now.




In short, let us pull back from being a military superpower, and become a humanitarian superpower.




Let us be a more modest nation. We will then be more secure. The modest nations of the world don't face the threat of terrorism.




Such a fundamental change in foreign policy is hardly to be expected. It would threaten too many interests: the power of political leaders, the ambitions of the military, the corporations that profit from the nation's enormous military commitments.




Change will come, as at other times in our history, only when American citizens-- becoming better informed, having second thoughts after the first instinctive support for official policy--demand it. That change in citizen opinion, especially if it coincides with a pragmatic decision by the government that its violence isn't working, could bring about a retreat from the military solution.




It might also be a first step in the rethinking of our nation's role in the world. Such a rethinking contains the promise, for Americans, of genuine security, and for people elsewhere, the beginning of hope.

Copyright 2001, The Progressive, Madison, WI
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04-12-2004 07:50 PM
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Post: #30
 
Sorry for boring your mosquito-sized attention span.

You may now return to <a href='http://www.foxnews.com' target='_blank'>sound bite news for ADHD simpletons.</a>
04-12-2004 07:58 PM
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