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Hmmmmmmmmmm, gotta find a different dead horse.......
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Post: #21
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ErnieMcCracken:
And I'd feel much better if you didn't reproduce and spread your "armchair quarterback" politics on others!

If you want to address these issues we can:
--Inexplicably Large tax cut at inopportune moment
What made them inexplicable and inopportune? He was trying to spark the economy while still giving a few bucks back to the tax payers. I know I spent mine to help the economy did you? Yes.. your refill for Viagra does count.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Way too large of a tax cut. Downturns in the economy are to be expected. Especially after an 8 year expansion. A small tax cut to spark the economy is a good idea. A tax cut which is too large endangers programs which Americans have learned to rely on(social security, etc) is not. If the tax cut is large enough to cause large deficits, what you may end up with is increased long term interest rates..which will ultimately create a drag on the economy. Bad fiscal policy could also convince foreign investors to pull $$ out of the us, squashing growth. I also would have liked the tax to be less regressive. More would have gotten spent that way. We are looking at deficits, as predicted by many in congress. BTW: Mine went into my Money Market account.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
-Protectionist Steel tarriffs(while telling the rest of the world to open their markets no less!)
I agree this was a bit ballsy, so you're not going to get too much of a debate from me regarding it. But if this is the worst he does.. I'm very content.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thumbing his nose at the rest of the world, while asking for help in the war on terrorism and to open their markets. Makes America look pretty arrogant.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
-Inexplicably large farm subsidies
Again, what are your parameters for determining that the subsidies were "inexplicable".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Basically we set aside $170 billion dollars to pay agriculture companies to grow more crops when the market tells them to grow less crops. This creates artificial price stabilization. This has a similar effect on foreign farms as tarrifs do. Their product costs more to make because they are not getting subsidized. Canada was particularily upset about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
-Failure to show any confidence in American economy for fear that recession becomes "his"
Again, what is your basis for this accusation? BTW... the recession was well underway during the whole "Who Won Florida" debacle.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This one is less concrete. Its been my experience that bush talks down the economy. He seems afraid that he will get blamed for a downturn that is not his.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
-Completely unopen to the idea of opening markets to cuba(little help for bro here)
Are you privy to all the info regarding Cuba and what they've done positive and negative? Of course you're not. If you're going to base your belief that he should be more receptive to the idea of increased relations with Cuba on Pres. Carter's speech, then you are more naive than I thought. What did you expect Carter to say when he went to Cuba, and for that matter, gave his speech FROM Cuba!?! It was a show on both ends. Yes I'm sure something positive did come from it, and it will probably turn out to be a positive step in the grand scheme of the negotiations.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">While I agree that nobody will ever confuse Castro with Grandma Moses, I think that the embargo is just hurting the cuban people at this point. The embargo was created because Cuba was a threat to our national security during the cold war. This quite simply is no longer the case. Our embargo may also be illegal on the basis that it is against WTO bylaws to block trade w/ another nation unless they are a threat to national security.

Edited to correct some grammar.

<small>[ May 29, 2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: apocalypse dude ]</small>
05-29-2002 03:16 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Post: #22
 
BTW: I'd like to point out that I do not think that the recession is Bush's fault.
05-29-2002 03:19 PM
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Liquid Karma Offline
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Post: #23
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
BTW: I'd like to point out that I do not think that the recession is Bush's fault.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Correct. The Republican'ts in congress spun our economy into a recession long before Bush got ahold of it.
05-29-2002 03:22 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Post: #24
 
In this morning's paper there is an article which i think acts as a good example of what I'm talking about(well this has more to do w/ Jeb getting re elected than with dubyah, but you'll get the point). I wonder how this will affect national security and oil price stability. I guess blood is thicker than oil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/politics/30BUSH.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/30/politics/30BUSH.html</a>

U.S. May Buy Back Florida Oil Rights

WASHINGTON, May 29 — President Bush vowed today that the federal government would spend $235 million to buy back oil and natural gas rights in the Everglades and off the white-sand beaches of the Florida Panhandle.

Administration officials said the agreement, if approved by Congress, would ultimately protect about 765,000 acres in three preserves in the Everglades, the Big Cypress National Preserve, Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge and Ten Thousand Islands National Wildlife Refuge.

Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida said the action made sense for the environment but acknowledged that it was also likely to help his re-election campaign.

As the two Bush brothers sat side by side in the Oval Office, the president announced a proposal to pay the wealthy Collier family of Florida about $120 million for mineral rights under the three preserves, which are home to several endangered species. President Bush also announced an agreement to pay $115 million to three oil companies, including the ChevronTexaco Corporation, to buy out offshore oil and gas leases, effectively preventing drilling about 25 miles south of Pensacola.

Florida politicians of both parties have joined state voters to fiercely resist drilling off the coast for nearly two decades, setting the state apart from Gulf states like Texas, Alabama and Louisiana, which have welcomed offshore drilling.

Facing a similar outcry over the prospect of drilling near the Florida Keys off southwestern Florida, the Clinton administration in 1995 bought back 73 leases for about $200 million.

"Florida is known worldwide for its beautiful coastal waters and the Everglades," President Bush said in a statement issued after a 20-minute meeting in the Oval Office. "Today we are acting to preserve both."

Environmental groups praised the president's plan, but some said it was politically motivated.

"It's a great move for Florida, but it's essentially a $235 million campaign contribution from the taxpayer's pocket to re-elect Jeb Bush," said Philip Clapp, the president of the National Environmental Trust.

Other environmentalists said the president's decision reflected a double standard, particularly when the Bush administration has moved aggressively to open up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska to oil and gas drilling, a policy rejected last month by the Senate.

"We hope this signals a change in the administration's approach to energy security," said Lisa Speer, a policy analyst at the Natural Resources Defense Council in New York.

Both Jeb Bush and administration officials said today that there was nothing inconsistent about a White House that was effectively opposed to drilling in Florida and in favor of it in Alaska.

"I find nothing ironic about it at all," Jeb Bush said. "Each one of these cases needs to be looked at in terms of the balance — to preserve the natural environment or the economic interests of a state."

Governor Bush made no effort to dispute the political benefits. Asked if his 2002 campaign would benefit from his brother's action, he replied, "I hope so."

Then he added, "But more importantly, it is good public policy, and when here's a convergence of good politics and good public policy, I don't think we should be ashamed about it."

Representative Mark Foley, Republican of Florida, said today that there was "no question" that today's action would help the president's re-election chances in Florida, which he won by only 537 votes in 2000.

The White House said the president had based his decision on community opinion.

"The president believes it is important to work closely with states and local communities and listen to their concerns," said Scott McClellan, a White House spokesman. "In Alaska, there is strong state and local community support for opening a small portion of ANWR to environmentally responsible exploration."

David B. Struhs, Florida's secretary of environmental protection, said Jeb Bush did not have to lean hard on his brother to oppose drilling in Florida.

"Let's put it this way," Mr. Struhs said. "There were 16 million Floridians all leaning in the same direction. Jeb Bush was 16 million and one."

Congressional aides said today that approval of the agreement on the Everglades was not assured, suggesting that there could be resistance on both fiscal and political grounds.

Under the proposal, the Colliers, a pioneer Florida family with vast landholdings in the state, would transfer mineral rights on about 347,000 acres that it could have explored for oil in exchange for $120 million in cash or credits for future oil bids.

The deal was negotiated between the administration and descendants of Barron Gift Collier, who used a fortune built in streetcar advertising in the early 1900's to buy 1.3 million acres of southwestern Florida that eventually became Collier and Hendry Counties. The family has over the years turned over 260,000 acres to the government through swaps, sales and donations, including the original 76,000 acres for Big Cypress. Family members have made contributions to President Bush and Republican causes but have also supported Democratic candidates.

The payment to the three companies will settle a suit brought in July 2000 by Chevron, Conoco Inc. and the Murphy Exploration and Production Company, a unit of the Murphy Oil Corporation. The companies said they were being blocked from extracting oil and natural gas from tracts that the federal government sold them in the 1980's. Two of 11 leases in a geologic formation known as the Destin Dome would be reserved for possible exploration by Murphy after 2012 but only if the state and federal governments agreed.

Longtime opponents of drilling welcomed the agreement.

"We think this is a fantastic victory for Florida's coast," said Mark Ferrulo, director of the Florida Public Interest Research Group. While he said the opponents would have preferred that all 11 leases be relinquished, he said the group could "live with" the suspension of the two leases until 2012 as long as the state had veto power over drilling.

Fred R. Gorell, a spokesman for ChevronTexaco, said the payments would allow the company to recover its expenses on the project.

"While we are very disappointed that we will not be able to develop the Destin Dome resource, this settlement address the concerns of the parties involved and reimburses us for the investment we have made to date," Mr. Gorell said, adding that his company's share of the money would be $46 million.

According to the suit filed in 2000, the companies acquired the leases for $10.5 million but spent heavily on exploration activities, increasing their investment to an estimated $100 million.
05-30-2002 08:40 AM
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Liquid Karma Offline
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Post: #25
 
Where does he plan on getting the money for this purchase?
05-30-2002 08:45 AM
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rickheel Offline
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You know, if he decided to drill you guys would bust his balls. He decides to protect the environment, and you guys bust his balls. Whats a fella to do?
05-30-2002 09:49 AM
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Liquid Karma Offline
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Post: #27
 
I didn't bust his balls. I asked a good question. Where will the money come from? You can't go and cut taxes and then start spending recklessly.
05-30-2002 10:10 AM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Post: #28
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rickheel:
You know, if he decided to drill you guys would bust his balls. He decides to protect the environment, and you guys bust his balls. Whats a fella to do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, I'm happy for the people in Florida. Their environment will be safe. Good for them.

I just think the hypocricy of the bush administration is showing. After telling us we need to drill in Alaska for national security reasons, we(we being the taxpayers LK) are now paying not to drill in his brothers state. A state which is very environmentally conscious. Also, a state where Jeb will be up for re-election soon.
05-30-2002 10:30 AM
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rickheel Offline
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As far as how he will pay the Bill.....do as the Dems love to do, just print the money!!!!!
05-30-2002 10:32 AM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rickheel:
As far as how he will pay the Bill.....do as the Dems love to do, just print the money!!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
Odd comment, considering the last democratic administration was the most fiscally responsible in decades.
05-30-2002 10:35 AM
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rickheel Offline
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Yes, they were. But who held the purse strings??
05-30-2002 10:42 AM
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rickheel Offline
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Of course, they all love their pork!

<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020429-1409076.htm" target="_blank">http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020429-1409076.htm</a>
05-30-2002 10:46 AM
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Liquid Karma Offline
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Post: #33
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rickheel:
Yes, they were. But who held the purse strings??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alan Greenspan.
05-30-2002 10:49 AM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Post: #34
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rickheel:
Yes, they were. But who held the purse strings??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is the type of denial that can never be argued with. <img border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" title="" src="graemlins/banghead.gif" /> So, you give clinton no credit for balancing the budget? He wasn't perfect, but he did run a balanced budget and it was one of the goals of the administration from the beginning. I'm not sure how you can deny this. It was also the democrats that said this tax cut is too big, and here we are facing deficits. So I suppose you will now tell me that the republicans actually hypnotized them into saying this?!?! <img border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" title="" src="graemlins/banghead.gif" />

FYI: I'm not even a democrat. I just call them as I see them. I actually wanted a republican candidate in 2000. We just got the wrong one.
05-30-2002 10:54 AM
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rickheel Offline
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Of course I give him credit! My point is that he knew he had to keep spending in check. He could not push through anything he wanted. Thank goodness for checks and balances. The Reps would have liked to spend more on Defense related issues and the Dems would have liked to spend more on non-Defense related issues. As far as the Budget being balanced, it was all smoke and mirrors as it was dependant on things stretching as far out as 2010.
05-30-2002 11:54 AM
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rickheel Offline
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<a href="http://www.cbpp.org/8-5-99bud.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cbpp.org/8-5-99bud.htm</a>
05-30-2002 11:55 AM
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rickheel Offline
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how did a thread about Fla's voting get here?? At least we are not talking about girlfriends and **** !!! <img border="0" alt="[laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/cheers.gif" />
05-30-2002 11:57 AM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rickheel:
Of course I give him credit! My point is that he knew he had to keep spending in check. He could not push through anything he wanted. Thank goodness for checks and balances. The Reps would have liked to spend more on Defense related issues and the Dems would have liked to spend more on non-Defense related issues. As far as the Budget being balanced, it was all smoke and mirrors as it was dependant on things stretching as far out as 2010.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Point of information: The fiscal budget was balanced and running on a surplus.

So, I know you're rooting for a Democratic House in 2002! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />
05-30-2002 12:05 PM
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