Just wanted to see what the feeling was on the comments made by Gary Sheffield in reference to Latin players being chosen by baseball's hierarchy because "they are easier to control" than African American players.

Does anyone think these remarks were racist? Do you think there would be an uproar if Gary were white?

Here is an article with most of the details....

Gary Sheffield not trying to be derogatory


Full disclosure....Gary Sheffield is on my 1st place fantasy baseball team.

blah Wrote:Do you think there would be an uproar if Gary were white?

Rhetorical, Bla to the H.

Google John Rocker.

If you look at history and how sports were integrated, and then consider why certain Black athletes are scrutinized more than others, you'll find a similar answer. That answer is that people don't like the guys who don't "know their place".

Now, is Sheffield correct in his assessment as it pertains to MLB at this moment? I don't think so. Management in sports want to win, regardless of what a dude looks like or what his "attitude" is. For example, you'll note who's still with the Dallas Cowboys and who left. No, the lack of Blacks Americans in MLB is a problem within Black American culture, not with MLB, and we can't expect someone else to fix it.

Nice try, Garry, but it didn't work.

Oh, and this might surprise you guys: I didn't find what Rocker said about NYC to be racist. I found it stupid and ignorant, but I don't recall him singling out any particular ethnic group. Now, when he was with the Rangers, he made some homophobic comments while in a restaurant that was located in a notoriously gay neighborhood. THAT was wicked stupid.

Sophandros Wrote:If you look at history and how sports were integrated, and then consider why certain Black athletes are scrutinized more than others, you'll find a similar answer. That answer is that people don't like the guys who don't "know their place".

So whites are responsible for many blacks abhorrent behavior? You know damn well the behavior I'm talking about. Show me a white guy doing it, and I'll join you in criticizing him. Trust me, I've done it....something lost on many people. You don't see Deuce McAllister doing that ****. You didn't see David Robinson doing that ****. So, how can it be about race? You're essentially saying black people can't control themselves. I disagree with that statement. Has nothing to do with color. I look at what Deuce is doing because I'm somewhat affected by it. I'm a Jacksonian by birth, even though I live in Augusta, Ga. Deuce will never be poor. He will never be broke. Why? He's a smart businessman that doesn't get involved with all the bull****. Oh, and he's an Ole Miss grad, RobertN. Oh wait, I think you actually insulted ALL Mississippi schools....or what it Southern schools, RobertN? He owns several car dealerships in Jackson as well as being a partner in the King Edward Hotel renovation project. What makes him different Soph? Last I checked he's as black as I am white.

RebelKev Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:If you look at history and how sports were integrated, and then consider why certain Black athletes are scrutinized more than others, you'll find a similar answer. That answer is that people don't like the guys who don't "know their place".

So whites are responsible for many blacks abhorrent behavior? You know damn well the behavior I'm talking about. Show me a white guy doing it, and I'll join you in criticizing him. Trust me, I've done it....something lost on many people. You don't see Deuce McAllister doing that ****. You didn't see David Robinson doing that ****. So, how can it be about race? You're essentially saying black people can't control themselves. I disagree with that statement. Has nothing to do with color. I look at what Deuce is doing because I'm somewhat affected by it. I'm a Jacksonian by birth, even though I live in Augusta, Ga. Deuce will never be poor. He will never be broke. Why? He's a smart businessman that doesn't get involved with all the bull****. Oh, and he's an Ole Miss grad, RobertN. Oh wait, I think you actually insulted ALL Mississippi schools....or what it Southern schools, RobertN? He owns several car dealerships in Jackson as well as being a partner in the King Edward Hotel renovation project. What makes him different Soph? Last I checked he's as black as I am white.

Kev, read the whole post, and don't jump on some random, straw man tangent.

And here's the history lesson, by the way. Early on, when baseball was first integrated, they went around and scouted the Negro Leagues not for the absolute best players, but for the players who were at the top AND who would best play the role of the Black guy who knew his place. Robinson, was that guy. A decade later, Ali was hated for speaking out. Robinson waited until after his career to speak out. Joe Louis waited until too late in his life to speak out. Jack Johnson had to leave the country because of his "attitude". THAT'S what I'm talking about.

Yes, you brought up Deuce and The Admiral. Both of them have realized that it's easier to get by in this world by not always speaking your mind and by "remaining above it". Hell, I KNOW what they're going through and have gone through via my life experiences, which is one of the reasons that I am much more comfortable dealing with these issues on-line than in person a lot of the time.

But to kill off your straw man for a minute:

1) Please tell me where I said that someone wasn't responsible for his own behavior. In fact, in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH of my post, I stated that today's Black culture is responsible for the lack of Black Americans in baseball on all levels.

2) The only part of my post that you quoted was about athletes and scrutiny. The people I was referring were guys like Ali. Guys like Bonds, who is being attacked more than ANYONE in the steroids era, including guys who've actually failed steroids tests. Guys like Terrell Owens, whose biggest crime was NOT KNOWING HIS PLACE AND MOUTHING OFF.

What's funny is that Curt Schilling is extremely opinionated and surly, but he isn't scrutinized in the same manner Bonds was--and this was BEFORE the steroids stuff. Why? Because the media hate Bonds because he doesn't kiss their ass. Schilling doesn't kiss their ass, either, but he was never attacked like that. And I like Schilling every five days.

3) Again, Sheffield had a point, but that point is not relevant to today's baseball environment.

Ya know, I agree on the Bonds issue, but I don't think it has a damn thing to do with race. Bonds is a dick. Period. Sosa never faced that much scrutiny and he was caught with corked bats. Is he not black? You've just proven that it's all about color with you. Hell, Bonds own teammates don't like the f'er. Is he getting harsh criticism? IMO, yes. But it has nothing to do with his color.

Oh, and since "ghetto" is now the linear opposite of "redneck", look what happened to John Rocker. If you're going to argue for free speech, and ***** about their criticism when they say stupid ****, you should defend Rocker as well.

RebelKev Wrote:Ya know, I agree on the Bonds issue, but I don't think it has a damn thing to do with race. Bonds is a dick. Period. Sosa never faced that much scrutiny and he was caught with corked bats. Is he not black? You've just proven that it's all about color with you. Hell, Bonds own teammates don't like the f'er. Is he getting harsh criticism? IMO, yes. But it has nothing to do with his color.

The Bonds thing started because of the the way that his father told him that the white media treated him. That's the source of his animosity towards the media. Other guys are dicks to their fellow teammates and don't face the same media scrutiny.

Sosa has never been outspoken or anything remotely like that. Bonds has been the "uppity Negro". Therein lies the difference.

RebelKev Wrote:Oh, and since "ghetto" is now the linear opposite of "redneck", look what happened to John Rocker. If you're going to argue for free speech, and ***** about their criticism when they say stupid ****, you should defend Rocker as well.

Did you even read my post?

Go back and do it, please.

Rocker has the right to say what he wants, stupid or not. I have said that many times in the past, and implied it in the post above which you clearly did not read. However, I don't think that what he said about New York was racist, in large part because he didn't even mention race.

Sophandros Wrote:The Bonds thing started because of the the way that his father told him that the white media treated him. That's the source of his animosity towards the media. Other guys are dicks to their fellow teammates and don't face the same media scrutiny.

Sosa has never been outspoken or anything remotely like that. Bonds has been the "uppity Negro". Therein lies the difference.

So, just out of curiosity, was Pete Rose not being "white" enough?

Sheffield is just another black guy blaming everybody and everything except himself (themselves) for something he doesn't like that is going on in the black community. It's never the fault of the blacks has been their position for the past 40 years, but rather the problem is white racism.

Well, I agree that blacks don't "know their place". Their place now is not to have an entitlement attitude like they've had for the past 40 years. Their place now is to have the same attitude the latino's have, and that is they are owed nothing and it isn't the white guy's fault if things don't go their way. You're right Mr. Sheffield, you black guys are a lot harder to control because of your attitude. The white owners are tired of having to Kiss your backside all the time. The Latinos and Asians make no such demands.

RebelKev Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:The Bonds thing started because of the the way that his father told him that the white media treated him. That's the source of his animosity towards the media. Other guys are dicks to their fellow teammates and don't face the same media scrutiny.

Sosa has never been outspoken or anything remotely like that. Bonds has been the "uppity Negro". Therein lies the difference.

So, just out of curiosity, was Pete Rose not being "white" enough?

Rose is and was loved by many, many people in the media, and he still is.

Bonds was hated by the media almost from Day 1.

But I still don't know where you're trying to go with Rose, because his ban from baseball has nothing to do with his relationship to the media, just as Bonds' relationship with the media predates the current steroids thing.

The bottom line is that Bonds, Owens, Ali, Jack Johnson, et al were and are Black athletes who were, in essence, "uppity negroes." The media (and thus, the casual sports fan) tend to like the guys who don't "cause trouble" or rock the boat.

And before you bring up Rocker again, he is out of baseball not for his comments (remember that he pitched again AFTER the NYC comments), but because he, like many other closers, lost his stuff and became ineffective.

I do not buy that "uppity Negro" defense. Period. Uppity? How about their employers were, not their baseball organizations, but their fans? Damn right when you don't please them, you're going to be scrutinized. How in the hell does that have to do with anything about race?

This is one of the issues I disagree with you on IMMENSELY. They are in a business. If they think they can talk the way they want, without regard to the people that pay their salaries, then it is on them. I.e., **** them. Wanna a "white" example? The Dixie Twits.

Sophandros Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:The Bonds thing started because of the the way that his father told him that the white media treated him. That's the source of his animosity towards the media. Other guys are dicks to their fellow teammates and don't face the same media scrutiny.

Sosa has never been outspoken or anything remotely like that. Bonds has been the "uppity Negro". Therein lies the difference.

So, just out of curiosity, was Pete Rose not being "white" enough?

Rose is and was loved by many, many people in the media, and he still is.

Bonds was hated by the media almost from Day 1.

But I still don't know where you're trying to go with Rose, because his ban from baseball has nothing to do with his relationship to the media, just as Bonds' relationship with the media predates the current steroids thing.

The bottom line is that Bonds, Owens, Ali, Jack Johnson, et al were and are Black athletes who were, in essence, "uppity negroes." The media (and thus, the casual sports fan) tend to like the guys who don't "cause trouble" or rock the boat.

And before you bring up Rocker again, he is out of baseball not for his comments (remember that he pitched again AFTER the NYC comments), but because he, like many other closers, lost his stuff and became ineffective.

I don't think Ali was an uppity negro. He was a jerk and a trouble maker. The Muslim thing was crazy. Him changing his name was stupid. Him running his mouth like a jerk all the time didn't endear him to anyone. He was a race baiter and thought the whites were the enemy. The media had to constantly reinvent him from the jerk he was in reality.

RebelKev Wrote:I do not buy that "uppity Negro" defense. Period. Uppity? How about their employers were, not their baseball organizations, but their fans? Damn right when you don't please them, you're going to be scrutinized. How in the hell does that have to do with anything about race?

This is one of the issues I disagree with you on IMMENSELY. They are in a business. If they think they can talk the way they want, without regard to the people that pay their salaries, then it is on them. I.e., **** them. Wanna a "white" example? The Dixie Twits.

Actually, the Dixie Chicks are a GREAT example. They show that a guy (Toby Keith) can say whatever he wants, but if a woman has the audacity to express her opinion, she is ostracized.

But back to uppity negroes. Take Terrell Owens. Everyone's complaint about him has not been what he does on the field, and he is a good citizen off the field. They don't like that he speaks his mind. I've heard time and time again that people would like TO if he would just shut his mouth. Now, the irony of this is that the guy who TO stands up for the most is Tony Romo, and the guy who he threw under the bus the hardest was Donovan McNabb (even though lately it's come out that McNabb is a whiner and may have been more of a problem than we think).

But "uppity negro" isn't a defense. Rather, it's looking at how some people are treated relative to other people, particularly when looking at how one Black guy is treated compared to another. If you "know your place", the media will like you. If you are uppity, they don't.

Sophandros Wrote:Actually, the Dixie Chicks are a GREAT example. They show that a guy (Toby Keith) can say whatever he wants, but if a woman has the audacity to express her opinion, she is ostracized.

But back to uppity negroes. Take Terrell Owens. Everyone's complaint about him has not been what he does on the field, and he is a good citizen off the field. They don't like that he speaks his mind. I've heard time and time again that people would like TO if he would just shut his mouth. Now, the irony of this is that the guy who TO stands up for the most is Tony Romo, and the guy who he threw under the bus the hardest was Donovan McNabb (even though lately it's come out that McNabb is a whiner and may have been more of a problem than we think).

But "uppity negro" isn't a defense. Rather, it's looking at how some people are treated relative to other people, particularly when looking at how one Black guy is treated compared to another. If you "know your place", the media will like you. If you are uppity, they don't.

Soph, you are proving my point. Toby can speak his mind because his, and the Twit's, fans agree with what he says. They do NOT agree with those twits. Neither do I. I'm all for free speech, but if you don't care about what your fans think, they you will suffer. Wanna *****? Suck on it. I was ON Owens side until he turned into a dumb*** saying he was, essentially, better than sliced bread. I thought what McNabb said was stupid. He totally discounted Owens' worth to the entire nation. However, I saw his ass on the tube when he was on the sidelines with Dallas saying, "Why the **** am I here". First off, because not to many teams would give you a chance, and second off, you aren't the greatest damn WR that's ever walked the halls of what is Cowboy's territory(spit).

It's all about the Benjamin's. Color has nothing to do with it. IMO, sports is the most UN-Racist business in the country because it IS all about ability. However, if you don't please the crowd, who PAYS the bills, yes, you will be criticized. Just ask Roger Maris, RIP. A honky.

Sophandros Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:I do not buy that "uppity Negro" defense. Period. Uppity? How about their employers were, not their baseball organizations, but their fans? Damn right when you don't please them, you're going to be scrutinized. How in the hell does that have to do with anything about race?

This is one of the issues I disagree with you on IMMENSELY. They are in a business. If they think they can talk the way they want, without regard to the people that pay their salaries, then it is on them. I.e., **** them. Wanna a "white" example? The Dixie Twits.

Actually, the Dixie Chicks are a GREAT example. They show that a guy (Toby Keith) can say whatever he wants, but if a woman has the audacity to express her opinion, she is ostracized.

But back to uppity negroes. Take Terrell Owens. Everyone's complaint about him has not been what he does on the field, and he is a good citizen off the field. They don't like that he speaks his mind. I've heard time and time again that people would like TO if he would just shut his mouth. Now, the irony of this is that the guy who TO stands up for the most is Tony Romo, and the guy who he threw under the bus the hardest was Donovan McNabb (even though lately it's come out that McNabb is a whiner and may have been more of a problem than we think).

But "uppity negro" isn't a defense. Rather, it's looking at how some people are treated relative to other people, particularly when looking at how one Black guy is treated compared to another. If you "know your place", the media will like you. If you are uppity, they don't.

I think you are off base on this example. I don't think that the DC's were ostracized because they are girls, but because they made statements that were opposite of their base of listeners and supporters. I am 100% confident that is Toby Keith said that Pres. Bush was a terrorist, country music enthusiasts would have treated him the same way they treated the DC's.

Soph, I think you are way off on this. A couple of examples.

The Dixie Chicks....Has nothing to do with them being women, but instead about who their base listeners are. They are conservative people, so they were tarred and feathered because they expressed an opinion that was against the opinions of their listeners. Dumb move on their part.

Terrell Owens...People don't like him because he is a showboat with what appears to a lack of work ethic and a huge mouth/ego that tends to bash others. It has nothing to do with him being black. The dude does have some massive talent.

Bonds is disliked by many because it looks as if he did do steroids. Also, I sure hope he doesn't break that white guys home run record.

Sheffield is a race baiter. He and EZ2 may be related.

GrayBeard Wrote:Bonds is disliked by many because it looks as if he did do steroids. Also, I sure hope he doesn't break that white guys home run record.

Bonds is also disliked because he has a horrible personality, just not likeable at all. Similar to Kobe Bryant, both arrogant pricks.

oh, and Barry Bonds* derserves an * next to his name, as that is how he's going down in the 'history books'

I don't like TO because he short-arms balls over the middle, and because when he attacks someone in the media, it's when that person's down. He called Jeff Garcia gay when Garcia was in the middle of a slump. He dissed McNabb when they were all hurting after the Super Bowl loss. He slammed Bill Parcells after Parcells left the Cowboys.