GGniner
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PBS: Wall of Seperation
here is something that is sure to be for once and Excellent and shocking for some, documentary on PBS of all places about the Church/State issue and the founders intent.
Be sure to watch it: http://newsbusters.org/node/13539
Brian Godawa wrote/directed this, I highly suggest his book "Hollywood Worldviews"
http://godawa.com
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06-19-2007 08:50 AM |
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Bourgeois_Rage
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Barry Lynn responds.
Quote:This project smacks of covert Religious Right propaganda, not a forthright contribution to the national dialogue.
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06-19-2007 09:48 AM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
all you have to do is read Madison, the Spectator Papers and the Federalist papers and you understand what the first amendment is about and how its been trampled by propagandist.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html
Quote:THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
they still open congress with prayer to this day, because they always have yet tyrants in the courts have made it illegal in public schools
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2007 10:25 AM by GGniner.)
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06-19-2007 10:25 AM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Barry Lynn is such a propagandist, his worldview could never give us the rights we have, ever. When your final reality consist of nothingness, everything comes from pure chance and constantly evolving and there is no creator, then you are only left with man. Otherwise known as Humanism, so then only man/state can grant rights, this is the Logical conclusion to this worldview...........see the history of the 20th century in Soviet Union and other Totalitarians that centered everything around man, man as an end unto himself. Even the greeks, all you have to do is read Plato's Republic to see they had no concept of the freedoms we have today...
This is completely the opposite of the founders worldview that the constitution was shaped around, in spite of the lies propagandist trying to change the country have stated(which contradicts the full history). The founders worldview led to our rights coming from the creator:
Quote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
these rights come from the Creator, not man(through the State), this is the complete antithesis worldview of atheist/agnostics. it takes a worldview of a Supreme Creator, the Infinite, who Created the finite, to come to this conclusion.............Man is not an end unto himself, this is the LOGICAL conclusion of this worldview.
Moving away from this worldview will mathematically and inevitably, lead to less and less Liberty.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2007 11:07 AM by GGniner.)
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06-19-2007 11:03 AM |
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TOGC
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
In other words, the government needs to stay out of the religion business.
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06-19-2007 11:56 AM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
In other words, the government needs to stay out of the religion business.
notice the "Free Exercise" part, then read about how these same founders had church services in Washington in Govt. buildings, not as established/forced Religion but by free exercise there of, optional not forced.
completely the opposite of what today's tyrants on the courts and through mouthpieces like Barry Lynn are doing and completely contrary to the founders intent.
all you have to do is know your history and read some of Madison's work in context of that history and what he intended in writing the First Amendment. His actions make that intent even more obvious.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2007 12:19 PM by GGniner.)
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06-19-2007 12:09 PM |
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uhmump95
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
No it says that the federal government cannot establish a national religion or prohibit anyone from practicing their religion.
The government can still run and pass laws based on religious principles (thou shalt not steal) it just can't say that said religion the principles come from is the official religion of the State.
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06-19-2007 12:14 PM |
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DrTorch
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Barry Lynn responds.
Quote:This project smacks of covert Religious Right propaganda, not a forthright contribution to the national dialogue.
Yes, people should be watching more commercial TV!!! Not reading firsthand the primary documents of the nation's history. Come on, let's get a new episode of House on the air right away! Oh no
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2007 12:37 PM by DrTorch.)
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06-19-2007 12:36 PM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
uhmump95 Wrote:No it says that the federal government cannot establish a national religion or prohibit anyone from practicing their religion.
I agree, they should never establish a religion but this is completely different than what "seperation of church/state" has turned it into, to the point in the courts they outlaw school prayer(free exercise) as one example, removing 10 commandments display as another(even though a majority of people wanted it there).....
all you have to do is really know the history of Madison on this and then look at their actions, they obviously thought things like school prayer were perfectly ok, they held church services in Federal govt. buildings but you went by choice, not force. Their actions speak to their intent.
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06-19-2007 12:38 PM |
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Bourgeois_Rage
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
DrTorch Wrote:Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Barry Lynn responds.
Quote:This project smacks of covert Religious Right propaganda, not a forthright contribution to the national dialogue.
Yes, people should be watching more commercial TV!!! Not reading firsthand the primary documents of the nation's history. Come on, let's get a new episode of House on the air right away! Oh no
Way to address absolutely nothing. Your idea of my television viewing habits is completely absurd, not to mention an absolute non-sequitur.
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06-19-2007 01:37 PM |
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Bourgeois_Rage
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
GGniner Wrote:I agree, they should never establish a religion but this is completely different than what "seperation of church/state" has turned it into, to the point in the courts they outlaw school prayer(free exercise) as one example, removing 10 commandments display as another(even though a majority of people wanted it there).....
all you have to do is really know the history of Madison on this and then look at their actions, they obviously thought things like school prayer were perfectly ok, they held church services in Federal govt. buildings but you went by choice, not force. Their actions speak to their intent.
The major difference between what has been taken out of schools and what the early founders were doing is establishment of a specific religion. According to the very quote you laid out above, the services in government building were non-denominational. Public property can still be used today for religious purposes as long as equal access is available for all who are interested. As soon as one religion is denied access there is a violation.
In schools a teacher saying a prayer is is endorsement of a particular religion. Students can still and do hold religious related meetings without any violation. When the courts have ruled against school prayer it is not against free exercise it has been because of the restriction on who is allowed free exercise. Free exercise is for all not some or most.
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06-19-2007 01:48 PM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Whitehouse State Dining Room, authored by John Adams:
Moses at the SCOTUS:
10 Commandments on Courthouse doors in SCOTUS building:
hmm, yet we get a ruling that 10 commandments must be removed elsewhere....yet the supreme law of the land has them.
US District Court
Library of Congress:
........the Capital is full of Free Exercise, while its being trampled on elswhere in the country. Judeo-Christian heritage, 52 of the 55 founders(Constitution signers) were Creationist Christians.
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06-19-2007 02:09 PM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:The major difference between what has been taken out of schools and what the early founders were doing is establishment of a specific religion. According to the very quote you laid out above, the services in government building were non-denominational. Public property can still be used today for religious purposes as long as equal access is available for all who are interested. As soon as one religion is denied access there is a violation.
In schools a teacher saying a prayer is is endorsement of a particular religion. Students can still and do hold religious related meetings without any violation. When the courts have ruled against school prayer it is not against free exercise it has been because of the restriction on who is allowed free exercise. Free exercise is for all not some or most.
and preaching the Gospels in the Supreme Court chambers isn't a specific religion? like Christian God over say budda? as one example mentioned....various denominations still use the same Bible.
the difference is force or the establishment of a "National Religion" to force on everyone, i.e. Church of England for example. Not the free exercise of. In many of the School prayer cases the students the ACLU files suit on behalf of, they had the option to participate, it was voluntary and they could leave the room while this is being done. Yet the courts ruled that this was establishment anyway, even though no force was involved.
this on the otherhand is an example of the Ninth Circuit Court ruled on saying this didn't violate establishment clause, because the students had the option to opt out. To these people its not really "Seperation of church and state" its "Seperation of Christianity and State"....
Court: Lesson on Muslims OK
Quote:SAN FRANCISCO - Christian students and parents cannot sue a school district where some seventh-graders pretended to be Muslims for three weeks during a course in world history, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the role-playing game was not a religious exercise that violated anybody's constitutional rights.
this completely contridicts rulings they've done on Christian related activities. Graduation prayer for example is optional, you are not required to attend the graduation if a prayer offends you then don't go, you would still get a diploma. Or go anyway and don't get offended... But courts have ruled that doesnt matter and parsed words in their ruling, compeletly contridicting themselves.
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06-19-2007 03:10 PM |
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dfarr
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Are you trying to strengthen or weaken his argument?
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06-19-2007 03:11 PM |
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RobertN
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
DrTorch Wrote:Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Barry Lynn responds.
Quote:This project smacks of covert Religious Right propaganda, not a forthright contribution to the national dialogue.
Yes, people should be watching more commercial TV!!! Not reading firsthand the primary documents of the nation's history. Come on, let's get a new episode of House on the air right away! Oh no
Yeah, I agree. Bush should try reading the Constitution rather than calling it a "GD piece of paper".
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06-19-2007 07:03 PM |
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fsquid
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
As long as you guys don't try to outlaw alcohol again, we are cool
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06-19-2007 07:51 PM |
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GGniner
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
fsquid Wrote:As long as you guys don't try to outlaw alcohol again, we are cool
that was the rise of the feminist combined with some good ole' southern baptist theology.....no thanks, would never be for that. the culture of the south has been suppressed because of that, very noticeable in the wine counisuer dept....
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06-19-2007 08:00 PM |
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DrTorch
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:GGniner Wrote:I agree, they should never establish a religion but this is completely different than what "seperation of church/state" has turned it into, to the point in the courts they outlaw school prayer(free exercise) as one example, removing 10 commandments display as another(even though a majority of people wanted it there).....
all you have to do is really know the history of Madison on this and then look at their actions, they obviously thought things like school prayer were perfectly ok, they held church services in Federal govt. buildings but you went by choice, not force. Their actions speak to their intent.
The major difference between what has been taken out of schools and what the early founders were doing is establishment of a specific religion. According to the very quote you laid out above, the services in government building were non-denominational.
You've interchanged the words "religion" and "denomonation" in your own post. This is an indictment on the fact that when the founding fathers were talking about religion, they almost exclusively meant "Christian denomination".
The fact that they expected Christianity to continue to play a major role in the country is explicit in their writings. Your efforts to try and diffuse that over all religions really makes you look silly.
Quote:Public property can still be used today for religious purposes as long as equal access is available for all who are interested. As soon as one religion is denied access there is a violation.
Actually, even that interpretation wouldn't be so offensive, however many local leaders deny Christians those rights.
Quote:In schools a teacher saying a prayer is is endorsement of a particular religion.
By that teacher, not by the state.
But, let's do an experiment and ask students to role play Christian efforts to abolish slavery, establish hospitals and end genocide...and see how fast the ACLU and Americans for the Separation of Church and State RUSH to file their motions.
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06-20-2007 07:10 AM |
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Bourgeois_Rage
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RE: PBS: Wall of Seperation
DrTorch Wrote:Actually, even that interpretation wouldn't be so offensive, however many local leaders deny Christians those rights.
Local leaders who are, more often than not, Christians. Many times they realize that by giving access to Christian groups they must also allow access to non-Christian religious groups. So instead of doing that they revoke privileges from all religious groups. That's pretty standard.
Quote:Quote:In schools a teacher saying a prayer is is endorsement of a particular religion.
By that teacher, not by the state.
If the teacher is being paid by the state then they represent the state, what's so hard to understand about that? No one is stopping people from practicing their religion, but due to the establishment clause while doing work as a government employee that person must refrain from advocating for any particular religion.
I still don't understand why the founders used the word "religion" in the constitution/bill of rights instead of the word "Chrstianity", if that's what they meant. They could have been much more specific if that's what they intended.
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06-20-2007 09:03 AM |
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