the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blazr Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:Everyone pays taxes, even the "illegal" immigrants.

Why the quotes? That's one of the things that perplexes me. They are, undeniably, in violation of one or more laws. How are they not illegal? We don't get to decide what laws are crap and what laws are ok. You either obeyed the law or you didn't. And if someone next to you obeyed the law (i.e., entered the country legally and according to procedure), then the proof is there that a)you could have done the same and b)you should have. The people we are discussing, for the purposes of this argument, aren't hispanics, latinos, Mexicans, or anything else other than illegal immigrants. They may be all those other things, in addition to being "undocumented" or any other label you want to put on them, but they are most importantly illegal and the question remains for our society of either our laws are meaningful and there for a purpose, or they can be ignored. And if one law can be flaunted then why not the rest?

Have you ever gone over the speed limit?

Have you ever received income without reporting 100% of it?

Have you ever stayed out past curfew?

Have you ever had a drink before turning the legal age?


"Illegal" immigration is a farce. They crossed a border without permission. Big whoop.

The difference is that in none of those examples was I (if I committed those infractions) in a perpetual state of being a lawbreaker. If I jaywalk, I don't remain an "illegal crosser" past the time I hit the other side of the street. Illegal immigrants came here illegally and remain here illegal. And I hate to be the one to tell you, but the majority of American citizens don't think immigration laws are a "farce"...and they do think crossing our borders without permission is, in fact, a "big whoop."

blazr Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blazr Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:Everyone pays taxes, even the "illegal" immigrants.

Why the quotes? That's one of the things that perplexes me. They are, undeniably, in violation of one or more laws. How are they not illegal? We don't get to decide what laws are crap and what laws are ok. You either obeyed the law or you didn't. And if someone next to you obeyed the law (i.e., entered the country legally and according to procedure), then the proof is there that a)you could have done the same and b)you should have. The people we are discussing, for the purposes of this argument, aren't hispanics, latinos, Mexicans, or anything else other than illegal immigrants. They may be all those other things, in addition to being "undocumented" or any other label you want to put on them, but they are most importantly illegal and the question remains for our society of either our laws are meaningful and there for a purpose, or they can be ignored. And if one law can be flaunted then why not the rest?

Have you ever gone over the speed limit?

Have you ever received income without reporting 100% of it?

Have you ever stayed out past curfew?

Have you ever had a drink before turning the legal age?


"Illegal" immigration is a farce. They crossed a border without permission. Big whoop.

The difference is that in none of those examples was I (if I committed those infractions) in a perpetual state of being a lawbreaker. If I jaywalk, I don't remain an "illegal crosser" past the time I hit the other side of the street. Illegal immigrants came here illegally and remain here illegal. And I hate to be the one to tell you, but the majority of American citizens don't think immigration laws are a "farce"...and they do think crossing our borders without permission is, in fact, a "big whoop."

60% of Americans favor a guest worker program. I believe conservatives call that "amnesty."

dfarr Wrote:Here's an idea: send everyone on welfare out to the fields to pick the fruit. The ones who aren't fit to work in the fields can fold laundry and do housework. If you're going to get my tax money you're going to work for it.

I'm with you. I'm sick of giving "my money" to lazy no good pieces of crap. You want free money. Go earn some of it. However, a program like this could never possibly happen because we have too many bleeding heart liberals that would think making someone earn their welfare would be cruel and unusual. So we have the system we have today where the government rewards you with a bigger check if you just keep popping out kids.

dfarr Wrote:Here's an idea: send everyone on welfare out to the fields to pick the fruit. The ones who aren't fit to work in the fields can fold laundry and do housework. If you're going to get my tax money you're going to work for it.

At best, what you just decribed is indentured servitude.

There is no one, simple solution to this situation. It's a complex equation with several variables that need to be solved simulaneously.

I find it interesting that people are outraged at people coming over here and taking crap jobs for crap pay, yet these same folks aren't outraged over corporations shipping off office jobs overseas.

Anyway, my first step would be a guest worker program, which would give them a tax ID number and collect an income tax from them directly. I would levy heavy fines on employers who can't verify their employees' status. Yes, this will take a lot of work and will cost a bit, but you guys need to realize that this has been going on for GENERATIONS. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube now.

And building walls, etc. won't help matters at all, and I personally have a problem with this country walling itself in.

blah Wrote:

dfarr Wrote:Here's an idea: send everyone on welfare out to the fields to pick the fruit. The ones who aren't fit to work in the fields can fold laundry and do housework. If you're going to get my tax money you're going to work for it.

I'm with you. I'm sick of giving "my money" to lazy no good pieces of crap. You want free money. Go earn some of it. However, a program like this could never possibly happen because we have too many bleeding heart liberals that would think making someone earn their welfare would be cruel and unusual. So we have the system we have today where the government rewards you with a bigger check if you just keep popping out kids.

What you describe as what you want was a part of Clinton's welfare reform, and it's in place in a lot of areas. BTW, IIRC, there is a cap on benefits as it pertains to children (something like after three, it's the same amount of money). Not too much incentive to have more kids. But anyway, the point is that we got rid of indentured servitude a couple of hundred years ago.

Sophandros Wrote:

dfarr Wrote:Here's an idea: send everyone on welfare out to the fields to pick the fruit. The ones who aren't fit to work in the fields can fold laundry and do housework. If you're going to get my tax money you're going to work for it.

At best, what you just decribed is indentured servitude.

There is no one, simple solution to this situation. It's a complex equation with several variables that need to be solved simulaneously.

I find it interesting that people are outraged at people coming over here and taking crap jobs for crap pay, yet these same folks aren't outraged over corporations shipping off office jobs overseas.

Anyway, my first step would be a guest worker program, which would give them a tax ID number and collect an income tax from them directly. I would levy heavy fines on employers who can't verify their employees' status. Yes, this will take a lot of work and will cost a bit, but you guys need to realize that this has been going on for GENERATIONS. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube now.

And building walls, etc. won't help matters at all, and I personally have a problem with this country walling itself in.

Absolutely brilliant post.

I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been more of a "states rights" approach proposed here. And by that, I mean things better than "official language" BS. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have gone for that, as I believe that they envisioned this country to be more of an enlightened place than that.

Sophandros Wrote:

blah Wrote:

dfarr Wrote:Here's an idea: send everyone on welfare out to the fields to pick the fruit. The ones who aren't fit to work in the fields can fold laundry and do housework. If you're going to get my tax money you're going to work for it.

I'm with you. I'm sick of giving "my money" to lazy no good pieces of crap. You want free money. Go earn some of it. However, a program like this could never possibly happen because we have too many bleeding heart liberals that would think making someone earn their welfare would be cruel and unusual. So we have the system we have today where the government rewards you with a bigger check if you just keep popping out kids.

What you describe as what you want was a part of Clinton's welfare reform, and it's in place in a lot of areas. BTW, IIRC, there is a cap on benefits as it pertains to children (something like after three, it's the same amount of money). Not too much incentive to have more kids. But anyway, the point is that we got rid of indentured servitude a couple of hundred years ago.

Indentured servitude has to do with paying off a debt based on someone paying your way to a new country. I am not talking about immigrants. I was talking about the deadbeats already here on welfare. No one is forcing anyone to take welfare. If they want it, they should have to work for it. Unless of course you are referring to the endless cycle this would create. Forcing people to work for their welfare creating an endless path that they would never be able to escape from. If that is the case, I would argue that we are already there. We might as well get some work out of them.

blah Wrote:Indentured servitude has to do with paying off a debt based on someone paying your way to a new country. I am not talking about immigrants. I was talking about the deadbeats already here on welfare. No one is forcing anyone to take welfare. If they want it, they should have to work for it. Unless of course you are referring to the endless cycle this would create. Forcing people to work for their welfare creating an endless path that they would never be able to escape from. If that is the case, I would argue that we are already there. We might as well get some work out of them.

The whole "deadbeats on welfare" thing is a myth propagated by conservatives.

the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blah Wrote:Indentured servitude has to do with paying off a debt based on someone paying your way to a new country. I am not talking about immigrants. I was talking about the deadbeats already here on welfare. No one is forcing anyone to take welfare. If they want it, they should have to work for it. Unless of course you are referring to the endless cycle this would create. Forcing people to work for their welfare creating an endless path that they would never be able to escape from. If that is the case, I would argue that we are already there. We might as well get some work out of them.

The whole "deadbeats on welfare" thing is a myth propagated by conservatives.

You obviously never met my ex-in-laws...

Sophandros Wrote:I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been more of a "states rights" approach proposed here. And by that, I mean things better than "official language" BS. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have gone for that, as I believe that they envisioned this country to be more of an enlightened place than that.

States' rights wouldn't apply here as the benefits that illegal immigrants are wrongly given access to are federal as well as state benefits.

blazr Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been more of a "states rights" approach proposed here. And by that, I mean things better than "official language" BS. I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have gone for that, as I believe that they envisioned this country to be more of an enlightened place than that.

States' rights wouldn't apply here as the benefits that illegal immigrants are wrongly given access to are federal as well as state benefits.

I'm talking more about doing things to help stop the flow of illegal immigrants. Stop waiting for the feds to hand you something and act on your own.

But that would require the politicians in the South and the Southwest to turn their back on their base, who are the small contractors and the wealthy who have illegal immigrants taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, and doing the lawn work for cheap.

the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blah Wrote:Indentured servitude has to do with paying off a debt based on someone paying your way to a new country. I am not talking about immigrants. I was talking about the deadbeats already here on welfare. No one is forcing anyone to take welfare. If they want it, they should have to work for it. Unless of course you are referring to the endless cycle this would create. Forcing people to work for their welfare creating an endless path that they would never be able to escape from. If that is the case, I would argue that we are already there. We might as well get some work out of them.

The whole "deadbeats on welfare" thing is a myth propagated by conservatives.

Really? Must be an anomaly confined only to my region. I have real live actual deadbeats living in apartments that I own. They never work, never have enough money to pay rent, and 75% get some type of aid.

The funny (i.e. tragic) thing is they all have cable T.V., they never are without cigarettes and earlier this week when I (the guy with a job) was over there cutting the grass, a bunch of them (no jobs) were outside lighting off fireworks (where did that money come from?). I have probably had more than 100 different families that have been in the complex and all but probably 5 are exactly the same, just different last names.

So you are right. It is just a myth. I'm sure the good people at Air America told you so. Well, I am living it. I see it every week. Maybe you can show me how it is a myth. If you can't maybe you should shut the hell up.

Anecdote <> proof

Sure, those people exist, but they are the exception, not the rule.

BTW, like the sig updates...

Sophandros Wrote:Anecdote <> proof

Sure, those people exist, but they are the exception, not the rule.

BTW, like the sig updates...

First off thanks....

Second, if it was limited to one occurrence I would agree that it is an exception. However, I have more than 100 incidents to draw off and those are just my experiences. I also have contact with other people who do what I do. when you add all that up, the numbers go to the thousands. I would argue that this is the rule and the people who use welfare as a temporary stepping stone are the exception. Feel free to prove me wrong with your own observations or data.....

I'm sure that you can use your experience and extrapolate it to the 13% of Americans who live below the poverty level.

the other Greg Childers Wrote:I'm sure that you can use your experience and extrapolate it to the 13% of Americans who live below the poverty level.

Hey, instead of mocking my real world experience, why not provide some evidence that contradicts it?

I know this would be a big change from your usual M.O. of just dropping a load of crap and flying away, but you should give it a try. It makes these threads so much more interesting.

P.S. Any pollster will tell you, having over 1,000 data points is more than enough to predict the outcome of an entire population with very close accuracy (i.e. +/- 4%). I'd explain how it works, but I don't want to talk over your head.

blah Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:I'm sure that you can use your experience and extrapolate it to the 13% of Americans who live below the poverty level.

Hey, instead of mocking my real world experience, why not provide some evidence that contradicts it?

I know this would be a big change from your usual M.O. of just dropping a load of crap and flying away, but you should give it a try. It makes these threads so much more interesting.

P.S. Any pollster will tell you, having over 1,000 data points is more than enough to predict the outcome of an entire population with very close accuracy (i.e. +/- 4%). I'd explain how it works, but I don't want to talk over your head.

Anecdotes don't mean jack. You made the original claim. Back it up with statistical data.

the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blah Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:I'm sure that you can use your experience and extrapolate it to the 13% of Americans who live below the poverty level.

Hey, instead of mocking my real world experience, why not provide some evidence that contradicts it?

I know this would be a big change from your usual M.O. of just dropping a load of crap and flying away, but you should give it a try. It makes these threads so much more interesting.

P.S. Any pollster will tell you, having over 1,000 data points is more than enough to predict the outcome of an entire population with very close accuracy (i.e. +/- 4%). I'd explain how it works, but I don't want to talk over your head.

Anecdotes don't mean jack. You made the original claim. Back it up with statistical data.

Why? You never back up anything you post on here with real data! You just throw some non-witty comment down followed by "I know you are, but what am I" rhetoric and move on to the next thread. I have already put down real world proof. I see it every day. You want to disprove it, be my guest. Otherwise move along.

blah Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:

blah Wrote:

the other Greg Childers Wrote:I'm sure that you can use your experience and extrapolate it to the 13% of Americans who live below the poverty level.

Hey, instead of mocking my real world experience, why not provide some evidence that contradicts it?

I know this would be a big change from your usual M.O. of just dropping a load of crap and flying away, but you should give it a try. It makes these threads so much more interesting.

P.S. Any pollster will tell you, having over 1,000 data points is more than enough to predict the outcome of an entire population with very close accuracy (i.e. +/- 4%). I'd explain how it works, but I don't want to talk over your head.

Anecdotes don't mean jack. You made the original claim. Back it up with statistical data.

Why? You never back up anything you post on here with real data! You just throw some non-witty comment down followed by "I know you are, but what am I" rhetoric and move on to the next thread. I have already put down real world proof. I see it every day. You want to disprove it, be my guest. Otherwise move along.

This was your original claim:

blah Wrote:I'm with you. I'm sick of giving "my money" to lazy no good pieces of crap. You want free money. Go earn some of it. However, a program like this could never possibly happen because we have too many bleeding heart liberals that would think making someone earn their welfare would be cruel and unusual. So we have the system we have today where the government rewards you with a bigger check if you just keep popping out kids.

Back it up with facts, or move along.