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panite Offline
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Post: #1
Big East Candidates
If the ACC expanded again and went to 14 teams which 2 BE teams do you think Swafford would go after next. I don't know if the ACC would ever expand again but I am interested in any opinions that you would have from the ACC perspective. Thanks.
02-18-2007 03:38 PM
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techfan4
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Maybe a UCF or Pitt.
02-18-2007 04:43 PM
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Laettners Legacy Offline
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this time lets screw the SEC

Florida and Georgia
02-18-2007 04:49 PM
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Terpy
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The difference is the SEC is actually a legit conference. If we did expand again I would like West Virginia and Syracuse or Pitt.
02-18-2007 06:11 PM
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panite Offline
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Terpy Wrote:The difference is the SEC is actually a legit conference. If we did expand again I would like West Virginia and Syracuse or Pitt.

I can agree with Cuse and Pitt. I definately think the ACC would go back for Cuse if they went to 14 since they were on the original hit list. They also make a great traveling partner for BC.
02-21-2007 04:39 PM
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techfan4
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I doubt it. Jim Boeheim and company would fight that until death. I think their president is a Big East homer as well.
02-25-2007 06:39 PM
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Terpy
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techfan4 Wrote:I doubt it. Jim Boeheim and company would fight that until death. I think their president is a Big East homer as well.

Syracuse last time was a done deal to the ACC until the state of Virginia blocked them and pretty much forced us to take VT instead.
02-25-2007 08:31 PM
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GunnerFan Offline
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Post: #8
 
a) For any such thing to happen would mean larger things are happening across the NCAA landscape, with other major leagues following suit. Highly unlikely the ACC would pursue such a measure of it's own recourse.

b) Based on Carnegie classifications, what's known about academic and research programs, etc, the BE schools (1A) most compatible with what the ACC has/is seeking would be Pitt, SU, Rutgers, UConn and WVU. Their level of interest and value to the ACC would be a matter of debate, obviously, but institutionally those are the members most inline with the existing ACC membership.
02-26-2007 01:41 PM
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Post: #9
Re: Big East Candidates
panite Wrote:If the ACC expanded again and went to 14 teams which 2 BE teams do you think Swafford would go after next. I don't know if the ACC would ever expand again but I am interested in any opinions that you would have from the ACC perspective. Thanks.
Not that the ACC would expand, but I won't be surprised if it happened. In fact, when the ACC asked East Rutherford, NJ officials to submit a proposal to host an ACC football championship game, I suspected that the league was looking to gain access to the NYC/NoNJ TV market. So with that in mind, the 2 schools I think come into play are:

Rutgers and Connecticut

And it's easy to add the 2 to the existing divisions and keep the other rivalries safe and sound, as such..

ATLANTIC
Boston College
Connecticut
Clemson
Florida State
Maryland
NC State
Wake Forest

COASTAL
Duke
Georgia Tech
Miami
North Carolina
Rutgers
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Notes:
Switch Duke's cross-division rival from Wake Forest to Connecticut.
Switch Wake Forest's cross-division rival from Duke to Virginia Tech.
Switch Boston College's cross-division rival from Virginia Tech to Rutgers.
02-26-2007 09:04 PM
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frogman Offline
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What are you guys smoking?

ACC expand again? Stop dreaming.
The Big East fools like Boston college and V. Tech were following Miami in the last raid. The Belief was that UM was a football powerhouse and where they went that's where the money would go.
That was then. This is now. Today the ACC couldn't draw Memphis out of Conf. USA. No current Big East team will see any value in joining the ACC. well, maybe Seton Hall. The ACC is a busted conference. You guys suck in BB and in FB.
Had seven in the big dance and seven out. Duke gone in the first round and the magic is gone with them. No one respects the ACC anymore because you don't deserve it.
FACT #1 The Big East won the conference realignment wars hands down.
It's funny the only way ACC fans think they can improve is by raiding. It's funnier that you believe some other teams would conider joining your conference where it is right now.
Your raiding days are over- now you have to live with what you got.
Yep. You got it. The whole world of college sports is laughing at you. I know, I know. You're going to turn this thing around next year. Well, That is then, this is now.
03-30-2007 05:01 PM
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techfan4
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frogman Wrote:What are you guys smoking?

ACC expand again? Stop dreaming.
The Big East fools like Boston college and V. Tech were following Miami in the last raid. The Belief was that UM was a football powerhouse and where they went that's where the money would go.
That was then. This is now. Today the ACC couldn't draw Memphis out of Conf. USA. No current Big East team will see any value in joining the ACC. well, maybe Seton Hall. The ACC is a busted conference. You guys suck in BB and in FB.
Had seven in the big dance and seven out. Duke gone in the first round and the magic is gone with them. No one respects the ACC anymore because you don't deserve it.
FACT #1: The Big East won the conference realignment wars hands down.
It's funny the only way ACC fans think they can improve is by raiding. It's funnier that you believe some other teams would conider joining your conference where it is right now.
Your raiding days are over- now you have to live with what you got.
Yep. You got it. The whole world of college sports is laughing at you. I know, I know. You're going to turn this thing around next year. Well, That is then, this is now.

Yawn. When you think of college football, which comes to mind first: Big East or ACC? When you think of college basketball, which comes to mind first: Big East or ACC?

Sorry bud. Welcome to NCAAbbs, but no one really cares about the Big East. You have Jim Boeheim. Congrats. Goodbye.
03-30-2007 09:08 PM
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frogman Offline
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Post: #12
 
Wake up call.
When I think of Football I think of the SEC as does the rest of the world.
ACC football has always been a joke and was in danger of losing its automatic BCS bid when they decided to raid the big east. Swofford's deal was bad. Miami was slipping before leaving the BE and V.Tech was one Vick brother away from slipping back to nothingness. BC has never won anything in the BE in BB or FB. Never. In fact, when the BE put three teams in the NCAA final four (an unmatched NCAA record) the only other eilte eight team that could have made it and failed was, you guessed it- Boston College. We could have had four- but noooooo BC messed it up for everybody. BC is doing better in the ACC then they have ever done in the BE. VT basketball was a doormat in the BE, they also seem to be killing you guys. The move was good for them.
When we think of basketball its time for rethinking.
If you look at the current make up of the conferences, the Big East has 7 NCAA title holders. G'town (1), Syr (1), Uconn(2), Villanova(1), Marquette (1), Louisville (2) and Cincy (2).
The ACC has four title holders North Carolina (4), Duke (3), NC State (2) and Maryland (1)
Big east has 7 former champions. The ACC has 4. Heck, the SEC has 3 Fla (1), Kentucky (6) and Ark (1). That right. Kentucky by itself is only one NCAA crown short of Duke and North Carolina combined.
Of course, UCLA has 12 NCAA crowns by itself. That's more than the entire ACC (10) or the Big East (10).
The big east added champions and big names and big markets in BB in Louisville, Cincy, Depaul and marquette. Home grown teams have revived like Georgetown and we have upstarts like West Virginia- ask Wake Forest and Chris Paul about West Virginia three-point shooting.
So just what makes ACC basketball so special? Yea, there have been a few great years for two of your teams. But those years, Like UM football, have come and gone. North Carolina was impressive this year overall, but this was a down year for the ACC in both FB and BB. How many down years does it take before people say your conference sucks? You were supposed to be the superconference. What happened?
The BE had a great year in FB and not to shabby in BB frankly, because we work hard. V Tech football was built in the BE. Now W. Vir and USF are being built under BE ethics.
Boston College BB is one Dudley away from returning to being Boston College, the founding member BE team that never even won the BE tournament. Not once in over 25 years.
Look, only the ACC fans are clamoring over the ACC. As a Big East fan. I'm getting over the raid because it's looking like the ACC shot itself in the foot and got rid of some BE teams that were on their way down anyways. Northeastern kids are no longer looking to play in the ACC like Kenny Anderson, Mulbury and a host of others did. They can now look at the BE, Madison Square Garden and more NCAA title holders than any other conference. The BE upgraded in BB.
ACC football is not going to outrecruit the SEC in the south.
By firing it's coach, UM is back to ground one and has to build a program in talent rich Florida competing with Fla. State, Fla. and now USF- which is also in a legit BCS conference.
P.S. no ACC FB team finished last year in the top 12 and probably won't start this year in the top 12. The BE had three that finished in the top 12.
Tell me again why I'm thinking of the ACC in football?
Swofford gave up BB for FB and now has neither.
Honestly, as a Big East fan, I bore with debating ACC folks. You have fallen below the BE radar. I looking for much better fish to fry. I'm moving on. See ya.
03-31-2007 03:43 AM
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frogman Wrote:Wake up call.
When I think of Football I think of the SEC as does the rest of the world.
ACC football has always been a joke and was in danger of losing its automatic BCS bid when they decided to raid the big east. Swofford's deal was bad. Miami was slipping before leaving the BE and V.Tech was one Vick brother away from slipping back to nothingness. BC has never won anything in the BE in BB or FB. Never. In fact, when the BE put three teams in the NCAA final four (an unmatched NCAA record) the only other eilte eight team that could have made it and failed was, you guessed it- Boston College. We could have had four- but noooooo BC messed it up for everybody. BC is doing better in the ACC then they have ever done in the BE. VT basketball was a doormat in the BE, they also seem to be killing you guys. The move was good for them.
When we think of basketball its time for rethinking.
If you look at the current make up of the conferences, the Big East has 7 NCAA title holders. G'town (1), Syr (1), Uconn(2), Villanova(1), Marquette (1), Louisville (2) and Cincy (2).
The ACC has four title holders North Carolina (4), Duke (3), NC State (2) and Maryland (1)
Big east has 7 former champions. The ACC has 4. Heck, the SEC has 3 Fla (1), Kentucky (6) and Ark (1). That right. Kentucky by itself is only one NCAA crown short of Duke and North Carolina combined.
Of course, UCLA has 12 NCAA crowns by itself. That's more than the entire ACC (10) or the Big East (10).
The big east added champions and big names and big markets in BB in Louisville, Cincy, Depaul and marquette. Home grown teams have revived like Georgetown and we have upstarts like West Virginia- ask Wake Forest and Chris Paul about West Virginia three-point shooting.
So just what makes ACC basketball so special? Yea, there have been a few great years for two of your teams. But those years, Like UM football, have come and gone. North Carolina was impressive this year overall, but this was a down year for the ACC in both FB and BB. How many down years does it take before people say your conference sucks? You were supposed to be the superconference. What happened?
The BE had a great year in FB and not to shabby in BB frankly, because we work hard. V Tech football was built in the BE. Now W. Vir and USF are being built under BE ethics.
Boston College BB is one Dudley away from returning to being Boston College, the founding member BE team that never even won the BE tournament. Not once in over 25 years.
Look, only the ACC fans are clamoring over the ACC. As a Big East fan. I'm getting over the raid because it's looking like the ACC shot itself in the foot and got rid of some BE teams that were on their way down anyways. Northeastern kids are no longer looking to play in the ACC like Kenny Anderson, Mulbury and a host of others did. They can now look at the BE, Madison Square Garden and more NCAA title holders than any other conference. The BE upgraded in BB.
ACC football is not going to outrecruit the SEC in the south.
By firing it's coach, UM is back to ground one and has to build a program in talent rich Florida competing with Fla. State, Fla. and now USF- which is also in a legit BCS conference.
P.S. no ACC FB team finished last year in the top 12 and probably won't start this year in the top 12. The BE had three that finished in the top 12.
Tell me again why I'm thinking of the ACC in football?
Swofford gave up BB for FB and now has neither.
Honestly, as a Big East fan, I bore with debating ACC folks. You have fallen below the BE radar. I looking for much better fish to fry. I'm moving on. See ya.

This is the most garbage I've read...I just wasted 4 minutes of my life reading this long message of hate and jealousy
04-04-2007 10:24 PM
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Post: #14
 
I think you guys are thinking too small...

personally, I'd like to see the ACC take a stab at Penn State

I also think Rutgers is awakening in terms of football...

Add Rutgers and Penn State
04-04-2007 10:33 PM
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frogman Offline
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Post: #15
Dilusional
Looks like the Big East is leveraging itself against the most powerful basketball and football conference in the south. The SEC. Here's something from the big east website.
Maybe you ACC guys can go after Florida.


"ESPN Regional Television, a subsidiary of ESPN, Inc., in conjunction with the Big East Conference and the Southeastern Conference (SEC) announced today the creation of the Big East/SEC Invitational, an annual two-night men's college basketball event featuring four games from two sites to be televised live on ESPN and ESPN2 on December 5-6, 2007.
Four different teams from each conference will be selected to participate for the next four years and the format will feature doubleheaders played at two off-campus sites.
The Big East and SEC have combined to produce four of the last five NCAA Men's Basketball Champions (Florida - 2007 and 2006, UConn - 2004, Syracuse - 2003) and seven of the last 12 national champions (UConn - 1999, Kentucky - 1998 and 1996)."

I think we're only doing this because we're jealous of the ACC. Heads up guys, I doubt you can get any team to join your conference now but maybe you'll have better luck getting one of our Big East coaches to come coach one of your sorry teams. You know our coaches are really hot. But if the money is really good they may step down and do something with you ACC guys.
I can't wait till football season starts- can you?
Best of luck.
04-06-2007 04:46 PM
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uconnbaseball Offline
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Post: #16
Re: Big East Candidates
MongoSlade Wrote:
panite Wrote:If the ACC expanded again and went to 14 teams which 2 BE teams do you think Swafford would go after next. I don't know if the ACC would ever expand again but I am interested in any opinions that you would have from the ACC perspective. Thanks.
Not that the ACC would expand, but I won't be surprised if it happened. In fact, when the ACC asked East Rutherford, NJ officials to submit a proposal to host an ACC football championship game, I suspected that the league was looking to gain access to the NYC/NoNJ TV market. So with that in mind, the 2 schools I think come into play are:

Rutgers and Connecticut

And it's easy to add the 2 to the existing divisions and keep the other rivalries safe and sound, as such..

ATLANTIC
Boston College
Connecticut
Clemson
Florida State
Maryland
NC State
Wake Forest

COASTAL
Duke
Georgia Tech
Miami
North Carolina
Rutgers
Virginia
Virginia Tech

Notes:
Switch Duke's cross-division rival from Wake Forest to Connecticut.
Switch Wake Forest's cross-division rival from Duke to Virginia Tech.
Switch Boston College's cross-division rival from Virginia Tech to Rutgers.

Wake and VT as rivals? Eh.
04-15-2007 08:20 PM
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GunnerFan Offline
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Post: #17
 
I'll start at the top:

frogman Wrote:What are you guys smoking?

ACC expand again? Stop dreaming.
This thread was started by someone who's a fan of someone outside the ACC (UConn or Mempis, IIRC). Then, given the nature of the comments no sane person would surmise the average ACC fan truly thought the conference would expand again. Given the scenarios consistently painted on the BE board and others, surely a little daydreaming fun is allowed.

Quote:The Big East fools like Boston college and V. Tech were following Miami in the last raid. The Belief was that UM was a football powerhouse and where they went that's where the money would go.
No argument here, but at least the money followed.

Quote: That was then. This is now. Today the ACC couldn't draw Memphis out of Conf. USA.
I've got $500 says ANY CUSA East team would make the jump yesterday. CUSA payout to each member is about $1.1M. The ACC, about $10M. Who'd Memphis rather see on their hoops schedule: Duke, UNC and Maryland or Marshall, Rice and SMU?

Quote: No current Big East team will see any value in joining the ACC. well, maybe Seton Hall. The ACC is a busted conference. You guys suck in BB and in FB.
Perhaps not now, but in 2003 the BE was less stable. Case in point, 3 members left the conference.

Quote:Had seven in the big dance and seven out. Duke gone in the first round and the magic is gone with them. No one respects the ACC anymore because you don't deserve it.
True, the ACC bombed in the dance this year, but one year does not a legacy make. The conference's track record speaks for itself and the committment to continued improvement is there.

Quote: FACT #1: The Big East won the conference realignment wars hands down.
Given the ACC achieved everything they wanted out of the manuever I think we can safely call this an opinion. Yes, on field performance has been meager in some cases, but that hasn't impacted revenues, attendance, or national exposure.

Quote: It's funny the only way ACC fans think they can improve is by raiding. It's funnier that you believe some other teams would conider joining your conference where it is right now.
It's funny how you think you can read our minds. Several ACC teams made massive investments in their facilities before the realignment as part of an effort to improve from within. Witness the stadia expansions at GT, NCSU, UVA, training facility upgrades at Clemson and Maryland. Part of the reason the former BE members made the move was BECAUSE of the committment the ACC institutions were making that many BE members (Temple and, at the time, Rutgers and SU) were not making.

Quote:Your raiding days are over- now you have to live with what you got.
Yep. You got it. The whole world of college sports is laughing at you. I know, I know. You're going to turn this thing around next year. Well, That is then, this is now.
That the ACC struggled on the field has been acknowledged even by ACC fans, but that's largely due to poor coaching. Take away Rich Rod, Schiano and Louisville AD Tom Jurich and it would be understandable to question the viability of BE football. So for any reason you can suggest the BE will continue their uphill climb (resources, fans, etc), those same reasons apply to how and why the ACC won't continue with this slump. May take more than a year but there is nothing to suggest it's permanent. That's just hate talking.
04-18-2007 03:25 PM
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GunnerFan Offline
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Post: #18
 
frogman Wrote:Wake up call.
When I think of Football I think of the SEC as does the rest of the world.
ACC football has always been a joke and was in danger of losing its automatic BCS bid when they decided to raid the big east. Swofford's deal was bad. Miami was slipping before leaving the BE and V.Tech was one Vick brother away from slipping back to nothingness.
Most of the nation thinks of the SEC and Big Ten first and second. Always have, always will. Even ACC fans recognize that. It's part of the reason they, along with the ACC admins, realized a change was needed.

Think Swofford's move was bad? You said the ACC was close to losing its BCS bid. Well it's locked up now, as is larger TV contracts and national exposure. Why? In large part because they expanded the conference! Larger footprint, less intrusion into ACC country via VT switch, more alumni and communities affiliated with the conference... Could it have been done more gracefully? Yes. Would I have preferred other institutions? Yes, and most everyone has their own ideal scenario. But I'd hardly call an action that achieves what it sets out to do a failure.

Quote:BC has never won anything in the BE in BB or FB. Never. In fact, when the BE put three teams in the NCAA final four (an unmatched NCAA record) the only other eilte eight team that could have made it and failed was, you guessed it- Boston College. We could have had four- but noooooo BC messed it up for everybody.
a) BC only made it to the Sweet 16 that year, losing to Memphis State who then beat Oklahoma to reach the Final Four. b) So, making the Sweet 16 isn't even a good accomplishment for you guys? How pious! c) Surely nothing of BC's loss had to do with the other team actually being better, right?

Quote:BC is doing better in the ACC then they have ever done in the BE. VT basketball was a doormat in the BE, they also seem to be killing you guys. The move was good for them.
Again, I'm none of this has anything to do with those squads actually playing well, right? And VT has responded to the move tremendously. Notice their fan support for hoops has increased from 6k per game to 9k since making the move.

Quote: When we think of basketball its time for rethinking.
If you look at the current make up of the conferences, the Big East has 7 NCAA title holders. G'town (1), Syr (1), Uconn(2), Villanova(1), Marquette (1), Louisville (2) and Cincy (2).
The ACC has four title holders North Carolina (4), Duke (3), NC State (2) and Maryland (1)
Big east has 7 former champions. The ACC has 4. Heck, the SEC has 3 Fla (1), Kentucky (6) and Ark (1). That right. Kentucky by itself is only one NCAA crown short of Duke and North Carolina combined.
Of course, UCLA has 12 NCAA crowns by itself. That's more than the entire ACC (10) or the Big East (10).
Good for Kentucky and UCLA! Clearly the Cats fans showed how level headed they are this past season, don't you agree! ;-) All of which means what, exactly? Florida proved you don't have to be a hoops superpower to win the title, and past performance can only take you so far. Ask the folks at San Francisco how they live off their past. Going forward, however, is another matter, and the ACC schools have as much in terms of resources to offer student athletes as the BE. UVA and Wake have tremendous support, facilities and committments from their admins, much moreso than UF.

Quote: The big east added champions and big names and big markets in BB in Louisville, Cincy, Depaul and marquette. Home grown teams have revived like Georgetown and we have upstarts like West Virginia- ask Wake Forest and Chris Paul about West Virginia three-point shooting.
Again, what's this mean going forward. Oh by the way, with all those hoops powers you mentioned do you really think WVU will sustain itself as a title contender, particularly now that Beilein has left? Perhaps you think every BE team should be in the top 25?

Quote:So just what makes ACC basketball so special? Yea, there have been a few great years for two of your teams. But those years, Like UM football, have come and gone.
Permanently?! Well then, I guess there's no need to actually play the games. Cmon kids, lets pack up and go home. Clearly we're THAT inferior!

Quote:North Carolina was impressive this year overall, but this was a down year for the ACC in both FB and BB. How many down years does it take before people say your conference sucks? You were supposed to be the superconference. What happened?
I thought you said we sucked? Which is it - Super conference or sucks? Cuase if the ACC just sucks then you should have no trouble not regarding them as a super conference, right?

Quote:The BE had a great year in FB and not to shabby in BB frankly, because we work hard. V Tech football was built in the BE. Now W. Vir and USF are being built under BE ethics.
Yes, the BE had a great year. Let's see if it continues. And if the football member wish to retain the current structure.

Quote: Boston College BB is one Dudley away from returning to being Boston College, the founding member BE team that never even won the BE tournament. Not once in over 25 years.
And the BE is two football coaches away from potential mediocrity. Further, I don't think the ACC is counting on BC becoming the next USC.

Quote: Look, only the ACC fans are clamoring over the ACC. As a Big East fan. I'm getting over the raid because it's looking like the ACC shot itself in the foot and got rid of some BE teams that were on their way down anyways.
Which explains why some BE fans continue to spend time worrying about the state of the ACC...

Quote:Northeastern kids are no longer looking to play in the ACC like Kenny Anderson, Mulbury and a host of others did. They can now look at the BE, Madison Square Garden and more NCAA title holders than any other conference. The BE upgraded in BB.
Wait, I thought you were suggesting the BE had some great history. What kind of statement is this, as it belittles the BE. What, you think those kids didn't see the BE in their own back yard, watching the grat SU-Georgetown rivalries on CBS? And by the way, the BE added USF hoops and now plays even les of a round robin schedule then the ACC. the Su fan in me is fearful of that killing some great rivalries.

Quote:ACC football is not going to outrecruit the SEC in the south.
By firing it's coach, UM is back to ground one and has to build a program in talent rich Florida competing with Fla. State, Fla. and now USF- which is also in a legit BCS conference.
It doesn't need to outrecruit the SEC, it simly needs to remain competitive in the national scene. Staying at nine members as the BE possibly moves to 12 for football, as Miami wanted to do, would've killed the ACC.

Quote:P.S. no ACC FB team finished last year in the top 12 and probably won't start this year in the top 12. The BE had three that finished in the top 12.
Tell me again why I'm thinking of the ACC in football?
From my perspective it reads like an obsession. Or Schadenfreude.

If this was only about improving football why didn't the ACC go Miami-VT-WVU/Louisville? If this was only about hoops why not leave Miami and get Louisville or Pitt? Because there's more to it than just those sports if you study the make up of the institutions and the existing power conferences.

Quote:Swofford gave up BB for FB and now has neither.
Yes, clearly he was acting on his own...

Quote: Honestly, as a Big East fan, I bore with debating ACC folks. You have fallen below the BE radar. I looking for much better fish to fry. I'm moving on. See ya.
Thanks for playing and for your interest in the ACC. Have a nice day.
04-18-2007 04:12 PM
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Post: #19
 
The ACC is not planning to to expand again. They just barely got enough votes for expansion last time. The only thing I see happening is BC and WVU changing conferences. If BC decides to return to the BE to have more geographical rivals in the northeastern and WVU leaving the BE to be in a southern conference like VT did.
05-04-2007 06:05 PM
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Post: #20
 
frogman Wrote:What are you guys smoking?

ACC expand again? Stop dreaming.
The Big East fools like Boston college and V. Tech were following Miami in the last raid. The Belief was that UM was a football powerhouse and where they went that's where the money would go.
That was then. This is now. Today the ACC couldn't draw Memphis out of Conf. USA. No current Big East team will see any value in joining the ACC. well, maybe Seton Hall. The ACC is a busted conference. You guys suck in BB and in FB.
Had seven in the big dance and seven out. Duke gone in the first round and the magic is gone with them. No one respects the ACC anymore because you don't deserve it.
FACT #1: The Big East won the conference realignment wars hands down.
It's funny the only way ACC fans think they can improve is by raiding. It's funnier that you believe some other teams would conider joining your conference where it is right now.
Your raiding days are over- now you have to live with what you got.
Yep. You got it. The whole world of college sports is laughing at you. I know, I know. You're going to turn this thing around next year. Well, That is then, this is now.

Did you even bother to read the first thread... probably not, otherwise you wouldn't have typed all that bs lmfao
05-04-2007 08:50 PM
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