Could the complaining witness, "16 year old Sarah Barlow"... really been 33???

This ought to be a legal nightmare. It's possible.... they never found the "Sarah" girl in the compound....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/18/pol...fri/index.html

(CNN) -- The investigation into alleged abuse at a polygamist ranch in Texas has shifted to Colorado, where police said Thursday that they have arrested a woman for making a false report to police.

Investigators with the Texas Rangers traveled to Colorado Springs, Colorado this week "as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas," the Colorado Springs Police Department said in a statement.

The reason for their visit was not immediately clear.

The Colorado Springs police statement said its officers charged 33-year-old Rozita Swinton with false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor. The charge relates to an incident in Colorado Springs in February, but documents related to the case have been sealed "so details of that case cannot be discussed," the Colorado Springs police statement said.

The Texas Rangers "have not filed any charges on Rozita Swinton as of this time," the statement said.

Authorities in Texas raided the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) Ranch in Eldorado, Texas on April 4, removing 416 children. The ranch is owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

The raid was prompted by a series of phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old officials referred to as Sarah, who claimed she had been beaten and forced to become the "spiritual" wife to an adult man. FLDS members have denied the girl, supposedly named Sarah Jessop Barlow, exists.

This "raid" should have never occured in the first place...The complaint should have been investigated in the same manner that any other complaint...not the wholesale kidnapping of 400+ childern from their families...I think these people are as delusional and destructive as any other religious fanatics...but unless it is proven that violence and force is used in their practices of their beliefs...Leave them the hell alone.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:This "raid" should have never occured in the first place...The complaint should have been investigated in the same manner that any other complaint...not the wholesale kidnapping of 400+ childern from their families...I think these people are as delusional and destructive as any other religious fanatics...but unless it is proven that violence and force is used in their practices of their beliefs...Leave them the hell alone.

+1

I hope the state or city gets sued back to the stone age.

CPS got a call from someone claiming to be a minor, and claiming sexual assault. CPS investigated, and saw girls who appeared and represented themselves to be as young as 13-16 who were pregnant, had children and or claimed to be "married" to men as old as 50. Apparently, birth records are a bit sketchy... but when a girl claims to be 13, and appears to be 13... CPS is required to act.

The "raid" was not based on the call... the raid was based upon an investigation of the call. Whether or not that call was real, the pregnant 13 year old WAS real.

Would we have preferred that CPS NOT investigate the claim?? Or that when they found pregnant teens that they NOT intervene on behalf of the minors?? AT LEAST until the truth can be uncovered?

By definition in this country, a minor cannot consent to sex. It is by legal definition "rape" which is a crime of force and violence. They cannot be "left alone".

Also interesting that the adults claim this girl never existed, but 10 of the teenage children have apparently said differently.

I'm all for free practice of religion... but there are limits to everything.

My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

GrayBeard Wrote:My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

The Sheriff said he had an informant inside the group for the past 4 years... and still didn't have probable cause to go in until the "call"....

All he had to do to go in earlier was allege "automatic weapons" were on the property...

It worked last time...

Hambone10 Wrote:I'm all for free practice of religion... but there are limits to everything.

I looked at an online Book of Mormon today and I couldn't find anything in there about it being OK for adults to molest kids....

WMD Owl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

The Sheriff said he had an informant inside the group for the past 4 years... and still didn't have probable cause to go in until the "call"....

All he had to do to go in earlier was allege "automatic weapons" were on the property...

It worked last time...

The girl also claimed to have gone to the hospital for broken ribs due to a beating by her "husband". If so, there should be records pertaining to the incident, and that ought to come out in the wash. It is entirely conceivable if she made up a name - supposedly "Sarah" is a common name in that compound, and if there are 400+ kids, there must be - what, about 6 "husbands" on the ranch?

WMD Owl Wrote:

Hambone10 Wrote:I'm all for free practice of religion... but there are limits to everything.

I looked at an online Book of Mormon today and I couldn't find anything in there about it being OK for adults to molest kids....

Just out of curiosity, how many times does the term "mindfuck" show up in the text?

Hambone10 Wrote:By definition in this country, a minor cannot consent to sex. It is by legal definition "rape" which is a crime of force and violence. They cannot be "left alone".

Does this apply even within the confines of marriage? I know that people under 18 can get married with parental consent, but is there a minimum age that must be met even with parental consent?

I'm not attempting to justify their actions, just curious about the way the legal ramifications of all this work. Are there legal loopholes that allowed these polygamists to violate the spirit of the law while adhering to its letter?

GrayBeard Wrote:My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

If there is evidence of child molestation or rape...I totally agree with you..Let those individuals stand at the bar and be tried....But not even the "inside" informant that had been there for 4 years could gather that evidence...Either this informant is totally incompetent, is a member of FLDS and is covering for them or the authorites have overstepped their bounds.
I will withhold my judgement of these people until all the facts are exposed...Just because people live a different lifestyle from me..does not give me the right to infringe on their liberty.

jh Wrote:

Hambone10 Wrote:By definition in this country, a minor cannot consent to sex. It is by legal definition "rape" which is a crime of force and violence. They cannot be "left alone".

Does this apply even within the confines of marriage? I know that people under 18 can get married with parental consent, but is there a minimum age that must be met even with parental consent?

I'm not attempting to justify their actions, just curious about the way the legal ramifications of all this work. Are there legal loopholes that allowed these polygamists to violate the spirit of the law while adhering to its letter?

I think rape is one of the crimes that have been alleged, which is still a crime among married adults.

It is unlikely that they followed the law in Texas (even if monogomous). Polygamy is illegal anywhere in the United States, so there is little question that someone is guilty of child rape (excluding the likely legal defense of mass immaculate conception).

Quote:Judicial approval is required for anyone under the age of 16 to marry. Individuals who are 16 and 17 must have judicial approval or parental consent.

Hambone10 Wrote:CPS got a call from someone claiming to be a minor, and claiming sexual assault. CPS investigated, and saw girls who appeared and represented themselves to be as young as 13-16 who were pregnant, had children and or claimed to be "married" to men as old as 50. Apparently, birth records are a bit sketchy... but when a girl claims to be 13, and appears to be 13... CPS is required to act.

The "raid" was not based on the call... the raid was based upon an investigation of the call. Whether or not that call was real, the pregnant 13 year old WAS real.

Would we have preferred that CPS NOT investigate the claim?? Or that when they found pregnant teens that they NOT intervene on behalf of the minors?? AT LEAST until the truth can be uncovered?

By definition in this country, a minor cannot consent to sex. It is by legal definition "rape" which is a crime of force and violence. They cannot be "left alone".

Also interesting that the adults claim this girl never existed, but 10 of the teenage children have apparently said differently.

I'm all for free practice of religion... but there are limits to everything.

You make valid points....I guess my problem with this whole thing has been uprooting of these children from their homes....CPS could never be expected to be prepared to handle a situation on this scale and I think it served no useful purpose to break up these families until the investigations had run their course.

I45owl Wrote:

WMD Owl Wrote:

Hambone10 Wrote:I'm all for free practice of religion... but there are limits to everything.

I looked at an online Book of Mormon today and I couldn't find anything in there about it being OK for adults to molest kids....

Just out of curiosity, how many times does the term "mindfuck" show up in the text?

Probably as many times as the Bible and the Koran.

GrayBeard Wrote:My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

Not that I am trying to defend these people (as it sounds as if they are altogether wacko), but it wasn't that long ago that girls got married very young. It certainly isn't the culture today, but then again, from the pictures it doesn't look like these cult members are living in the here and now with their amish-style clothing, etc.

I was flipping through the channels last night when I saw an episode of "Little House on the Prairie" that reminded me of this group. In the episode Mary gets engaged at 13.5 years old, however, Charles says they need to wait until she is 15 to actually get married. The guy had turned down going to college to be a farmer and get married, which I guess means he was at least 18.

I45owl Wrote:I think rape is one of the crimes that have been alleged, which is still a crime among married adults.

It is unlikely that they followed the law in Texas (even if monogomous). Polygamy is illegal anywhere in the United States, so there is little question that someone is guilty of child rape (excluding the likely legal defense of mass immaculate conception).

Quote:Judicial approval is required for anyone under the age of 16 to marry. Individuals who are 16 and 17 must have judicial approval or parental consent.

I was just referring to the statatory side of rape when I was asking if it applied to marriage. I didn't realize that the more violent rape had also been alleged. But since I highly doubt they were getting judicial approval for the marriages it doesn't look like they were exploiting a loophole.

blah Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:My question is why wasn't this compound shut down a long time ago. This group continues to live outside the law as it pertains to marriage and children. It's wrong, sick, and the men involved should be locked up for being child molesters/rapists.

Not that I am trying to defend these people (as it sounds as if they are altogether wacko), but it wasn't that long ago that girls got married very young. It certainly isn't the culture today, but then again, from the pictures it doesn't look like these cult members are living in the here and now with their amish-style clothing, etc.

I was flipping through the channels last night when I saw an episode of "Little House on the Prairie" that reminded me of this group. In the episode Mary gets engaged at 13.5 years old, however, Charles says they need to wait until she is 15 to actually get married. The guy had turned down going to college to be a farmer and get married, which I guess means he was at least 18.

While what you are saying may be true, it is beside the point. If it is against the law now, it is against the law.

Here is the fact I cannot understand...

How much evidence does it take to get a CPS investigation open on a case of suspected abuse?

NONE.

In Harris County, all it took was an mere allegation.. NO EVIDENCE.

In fact, that is one of the tricks used by shacked up women to get their "boyfriend" out of the house when they are ready to break up... Call CPS and say "My boyfriend is acting wierd to my daughter"....

CPS comes out and investigates. Usually the boyfriend is asked to leave pending the completion of the investigation. Mission Accomplished.

IF CPS comes out and there is no cooperation by the family or suspected obstruction, and/or things look funny in the home, CPS can go to a Family District Court Judge and get a Court Order to take the kid pending the investigation. Now that takes evidence... but its based upon the CPS saying we suspect abuse and why.. the family isn't being cooperative, and the Best Interest of the Child lies in temporary custody.

It doesn't take 4 years for that to happen. People have been complaining about the FDLS for years.

All CPS had to do is show up at the Ranch and ask to come in and talk. If they FDLS are stupid and say No.. CPS gets a Court Order to come in.

If they let CPS in, they have enough evidence to go back to get an Order. Their "Wierd-Meters" would have gone off the scale. It would have taken less than a day to get an Affidavit drafted.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygam...index.html

And on a related FLDS note - the compound might have been built with your tax dollars. I don't know if that makes me want to laugh or cry.

jh Wrote:I was just referring to the statatory side of rape when I was asking if it applied to marriage. I didn't realize that the more violent rape had also been alleged. But since I highly doubt they were getting judicial approval for the marriages it doesn't look like they were exploiting a loophole.

I should note that I'm going off of NPR discussions that were themselves removed from actual discussions of fact...

jh Wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/polygam...index.html

And on a related FLDS note - the compound might have been built with your tax dollars. I don't know if that makes me want to laugh or cry.

That was one of the other points relayed by former cult members - these guys exploit govt. welfare programs as well as using various manners of fraud to bilk surrounding communities of money.

WMD Owl Wrote:Here is the fact I cannot understand...

How much evidence does it take to get a CPS investigation open on a case of suspected abuse?

NONE.

Is that a good thing or bad thing? It is very unfortunate that it puts so much power into the whim of individual investigators. However, there's a lot at stake when you begin to add requirements of process into the mix. You have to weigh the fairly low possibility that someone innocent is accused against the high possibility that someone guilty would get away with something when you add lots of procedural barriers. The damage of making the wrong move is almost inescapable. Note that the children have rights even when they are not able to understand them or express any kind of coherent ideas.

I coach my daughter's soccer team, and am a bit paranoid of how damaging the allegation of abuse can be. I am not comfortable giving rides to practice or games for any of her teammates. However, perhaps the fear of getting caught has an overall good influence in reducing possible abuses from those that are so inclined.