Fo Shizzle Wrote:Then I presume you have no problem with the US leaving SA and letting them handle their own defense?

To my knowledge, we pulled out most of our assets from SA once we went into Iraq.

RebelKev Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Then I presume you have no problem with the US leaving SA and letting them handle their own defense?

To my knowledge, we pulled out most of our assets from SA once we went into Iraq.

We dont have a base in Riyaid(sp)?

Fo Shizzle Wrote:We dont have a base in Riyaid(sp)?

I honestly couldn't tell you, we did at one time. Going into Iraq the last stop is generally Kuwait, although some flights fly directly into Baghdad. Depends on the situation. I've never been to SA and I was just young enough to miss the Gulf War. I do know that most of our assets in that region are now in Iraq, and most that were in SA are in Iraq as well. We don't really need them when the reason for us being in SA was Iraq to begin with. If we do have assets there, I'm all for pulling out of SA.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Then I presume you have no problem with the US leaving SA and letting them handle their own defense?

To my knowledge, we pulled out most of our assets from SA once we went into Iraq.

We dont have a base in Riyaid(sp)?

We pulled out of Saudi Arabia in 2003. The Saudis refused to let us attack Iraq from a base in their country without there being a UN resolution.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

We moved to the al-Udeid base in Qatar.

RebelKev Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:We dont have a base in Riyaid(sp)?

I honestly couldn't tell you, we did at one time. Going into Iraq the last stop is generally Kuwait, although some flights fly directly into Baghdad. Depends on the situation. I've never been to SA and I was just young enough to miss the Gulf War. I do know that most of our assets in that region are now in Iraq, and most that were in SA are in Iraq as well. We don't really need them when the reason for us being in SA was Iraq to begin with. If we do have assets there, I'm all for pulling out of SA.

Im not sure either...I know my brother in Law was there in the Gulf War and recently...his son in law... flew in there twice on tours out of S.Johnson in Goldsboro....Im not sure if the Saudis are in control or not...Ill ask him when I see him in a coulpe of weeks.

Im with you though...F the Saudis

RebelKev Wrote:

perunapower Wrote:Since we're discussing Operation Cyclone and other US involvement in the Soviet War in Afghanistan, I think I'll share this interesting quote I found.

In the late 1980s, Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein."

How right she was. We create the monster, by funding the Afghan insurgents, and then it seeks to destroy us, through Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.

We didn't fund Afghani insurgents. We funded Afghani freedom-fighters. Yes, there is a difference.

However, I will concede the point that almost every time we've helped Muslims, it's come back to bite us in the ass.

Freedom-fighters like Osama Bin Laden? We funded and trained the people that are committing terrorism against us now. We should have had nothing to do with these people, but we got involved to fight the soviets. I saw a documentary on this in a Terrorism class (study of, not engaging) at UCF. The CIA deputy directer in the 90s was talking about how they just ally with whoever to fight the current enemy even if the "ally" may end up being worse than the current enemy. He said that we'll just deal with it when it becomes a problem, i.e. when they attack us.

"One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist."

Jugnaut Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:

perunapower Wrote:Since we're discussing Operation Cyclone and other US involvement in the Soviet War in Afghanistan, I think I'll share this interesting quote I found.

In the late 1980s, Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein."

How right she was. We create the monster, by funding the Afghan insurgents, and then it seeks to destroy us, through Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda.

We didn't fund Afghani insurgents. We funded Afghani freedom-fighters. Yes, there is a difference.

However, I will concede the point that almost every time we've helped Muslims, it's come back to bite us in the ass.

Freedom-fighters like Osama Bin Laden? We funded and trained the people that are committing terrorism against us now. We should have had nothing to do with these people, but we got involved to fight the soviets. I saw a documentary on this in a Terrorism class (study of, not engaging) at UCF. The CIA deputy directer in the 90s was talking about how they just ally with whoever to fight the current enemy even if the "ally" may end up being worse than the current enemy. He said that we'll just deal with it when it becomes a problem, i.e. when they attack us.

"One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist."

Yep...The unintended consequences of interventionism are almost always bad.

Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countires (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

smn1256 Wrote:Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countires (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

Yes...In a free market society without the guns of government around.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countries (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

Yes...In a free market society without the guns of government around.

I've always said that if the Palestinians could ever grasp the idea of greedy capitalism then they just might learn to live next to Israel and profit from it. Instead, even though they rely on Israel for much of their existence, they still lob rockets into Israel and try to kill as many Jews as they can. While I agree with you that money makes the world go 'round it's unfortunate the concept of large green means nothing to extremist religious cave dwelling knuckleheads.

smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countries (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

Yes...In a free market society without the guns of government around.

I've always said that if the Palestinians could ever grasp the idea of greedy capitalism then they just might learn to live next to Israel and profit from it. Instead, even though they rely on Israel for much of their existence, they still lob rockets into Israel and try to kill as many Jews as they can. While I agree with you that money makes the world go 'round it's unfortunate the concept of large green means nothing to extremist religious cave dwelling knuckleheads.

Amen...Its really sad that some parts of the world seem to relish living several centuries behind the rest of civilization.

I advocate peaceful negotiaton and free market trade with these nations...We can only win this "war on terror" with our superior "ideals"...along with a strong defense. We won the cold war the same way....Show that Freedom and Liberty are the superior way of life...and the war...is won.

smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countries (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

Yes...In a free market society without the guns of government around.

I've always said that if the Palestinians could ever grasp the idea of greedy capitalism then they just might learn to live next to Israel and profit from it. Instead, even though they rely on Israel for much of their existence, they still lob rockets into Israel and try to kill as many Jews as they can. While I agree with you that money makes the world go 'round it's unfortunate the concept of large green means nothing to extremist religious cave dwelling knuckleheads.

hard for them to try things like the free market when something like 60% of them are illiterate and basically controlled by a bunch of evil nutjobs with guns. most of them don't know any better, are brainwashed into beleiving the Jews and US are literally satan, etc.

GGniner Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:Freedom cost us the lives of all those who died in the Revolutionary War. After that is has cost us a **** load of $$$ to maintain it. I'm not sure how many countries (other than the ones that are currently free already) could afford to fight off those who will do anything in their efforts to have their way. Does anyone here truly believe Russia, Saudia Arabia and a bunch of other countries could ever maintain a truly free and equal society?

Yes...In a free market society without the guns of government around.

I've always said that if the Palestinians could ever grasp the idea of greedy capitalism then they just might learn to live next to Israel and profit from it. Instead, even though they rely on Israel for much of their existence, they still lob rockets into Israel and try to kill as many Jews as they can. While I agree with you that money makes the world go 'round it's unfortunate the concept of large green means nothing to extremist religious cave dwelling knuckleheads.

hard for them to try things like the free market when something like 60% of them are illiterate and basically controlled by a bunch of evil nutjobs with guns. most of them don't know any better, are brainwashed into beleiving the Jews and US are literally satan, etc.

That is certainly a vaid point...Its pretty clear that the Islamic leadership holds the population in its grasp by keeping them in the dark ages. Im not sure how that cycle of despotism can be broken. Its a generational problem that probably will take many more generations to evolve out of.

I saw an interesting interview on the Daily Show a couple of months ago. It was Jewish State Department employee in his mid-20s who had been stationed in the Middle East (I think he was either in Lebenon or that's where he'd go on his free time) & wrote a book about his experiences with the regular people. He'd go out into the streets & engage young people, starting conversations about music or movies or other non-confrontational topics. Eventually he'd reveal his Jewishness, even to people he knew were members of Hezbola or other radical organizations, & delve into the more substantive topics.

He said that many of the young people you seee in the videos throwing rocks & chanting anti-American/Israeli slogans are not necessarily anti-American/Israeli themselves. Hezbola goes out into the countryside & pays people to come in and participate in their demonstrations. Since there's not much to do, either work or for entertainment, many of the protestors look at it as a free trip into the city.

This suggests that the situation might not be quite as intractable as it would appear. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy, but it seems like at least some of the younger people might be open to change. Of course, it will long remain a hot button issue used to inflame the populace by politicians, both the ture believer extremists & typical pandering types as well.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:That is certainly a vaid point...Its pretty clear that the Islamic leadership holds the population in its grasp by keeping them in the dark ages. Im not sure how that cycle of despotism can be broken. Its a generational problem that probably will take many more generations to evolve out of.

in Korea and Japan the US Military and allies did it by being present to put down the oppressive forces that had the guns and gradually allow things to take root. pretty big success in those two countries..



LG, Sony, Samsung...Toytoa, Honda, Hyndai........growing world GDP (Economic Liberties), foes turned into allies and some freedom....thanks to our leadership and increased liberty for the world.