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John McCain with the quote of the day.
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #41
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
the point/facts are real simple here:

Saddam invaded Kuwait, the world led by its Superpower formed a Coalition and kicked Saddam out for trying to Seize Kuwait, their land and Oil. The war never officially ended, a Cease Fire was signed and then Saddam violated it repeatedly, each time being a legal case to resume the war which we eventually did.


Russia invades Georgia with no warning, apparently to seize land and Oil if they get away with it, to make part of Russia.

The only analogy here is Saddam to Russia, Putin invading Georgia is in no way the same as the US led Coalition removing Saddam. Had we seized land and installed a dictatorship, it would be a closer parallel.

Comparing the US to Russia is moral relativism, and of the dangerous kind.
----------------

Democratic Senator Fritz Hollings, entered in US Senate Record on September 12, 2002 an editorial from Iraqi newspaper Al-Nasiriyah, 2 months before 9/11...predicting the attacks in NY and the targets, praising Bin Laden. This would be a State Run newspaper of course.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/...sition=all


there was a lot of discussion on all sides justifying taking out Saddam, and following our policy.

CNN reporitng in 1999: http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/13/afghan.binladen/

Quote:Saddam Hussein offered asylum

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers.
Despite repeated demands from Washington, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden after the August 7 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, demanding proof of his involvement in terrorist activities.
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2008 03:48 PM by GGniner.)
08-15-2008 03:43 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #42
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
GGniner Wrote:
Brookes Owl Wrote:You even acknowledge that it was being "played up in some speeches" (Colin Powell at the UN anyone?). The overwhelming amount of discussion coming from the administration was focused on WMD, and for good reason. It was a terrible threat and was an excellent way to build bi-partisan support in both Congress and with the general public. I'm not saying it wasn't a realistic fear, and at the time, with the information being presented, it WAS a compelling argument. Just don't try to tell me that WMD weren't leading the parade.


you stated that "removing a dictator" was not one of our objectives when it clearly was and laid out as such

That's not exactly true - I said that we did not invade Iraq to remove a dictator. After not getting him the first time, I think it was pretty clear that Saddam's removal would have had to be AN objective. What I should have said (and I hope was clear in my following posts) was that we didn't invade Iraq ONLY to remove a dictator. The primary selling point to the American Public and the world (as I think you at least partially agree) was WMD.

Quote:Comparing the US to Russia is moral relativism, and of the dangerous kind.
I'm fine with criticism/condemnation of Russia's actions. But I think playing Chicken Little with morals is at least as dangerous as the actual threat of moral relativism.
08-15-2008 04:12 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #43
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
I don't think this is that big of a deal. McCain said something silly (even in context that quote is clearly wrong - he states that it doesn't matter who was right or wrong or who provoked who which would undercut arguments that we were justified in invading Iraq & Afganistan), but it was a small part of a larger answer.

Of course, If Obama had said something similar, we'd have twelve threads on here swearing it ment that Obama was too inexperienced to be President.
08-15-2008 07:34 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #44
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
This is thread should be called "lets split hairs over why governments kill people". This Ruskie crap and our Iraq boongoggle both speak volumes for the evil of governments and their murderous histories. No institution has murdered more people than government.03-idea
08-15-2008 08:49 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
I believe our proud Republican presidential nominee misspoke. We invaded Granada to save Americans and it was the right thing to do, and we got out after we did it. If I was the king of Israel the first thing I'd do is invade any Palestinian controlled area that launched another rocket into my kingdom - and I'd be right in doing it because bombing my sovereign land is an act of war.

The fact of the matter is Saddam violated his own surrender agreement, violated the no fly zone and shot at our planes who patrolled it (an act of war?), went about killing his own people when we left after Gulf 1, refused to allow nuclear inspections, violated UN resolutions, and on and on. He even ignored us for 10 years when we told him that if he didn't live up to the terms of his surrender that we'd be back. If the world wants us to be the universal police force then sometimes that requires breaking down a few doors and making arrests - you don't like? Then find another cop to do the job. Our intent was not to grab land or annex a country. Instead, it was to kick ass, take names and get out. The first 2 parts of our intent work out marvelously, but part three had some unexpected issues. Another thing to consider is if McCain was in Bush's shoes during Gulf 2 would he have gone into Iraq? Once he was the top guy with all the responsibility would he have done it?

I've been working long hours the last week (which is why there were no posts from me for a while) and never really got the full scoop about how this Russia/Georgia thing started but from what I've heard Russia is trying to go back to their old way of doing things.
08-15-2008 10:20 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #46
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
smn1256 Wrote:I believe our proud Republican presidential nominee misspoke. We invaded Granada to save Americans and it was the right thing to do, and we got out after we did it. If I was the king of Israel the first thing I'd do is invade any Palestinian controlled area that launched another rocket into my kingdom - and I'd be right in doing it because bombing my sovereign land is an act of war.

The fact of the matter is Saddam violated his own surrender agreement, violated the no fly zone and shot at our planes who patrolled it (an act of war?), went about killing his own people when we left after Gulf 1, refused to allow nuclear inspections, violated UN resolutions, and on and on. He even ignored us for 10 years when we told him that if he didn't live up to the terms of his surrender that we'd be back. If the world wants us to be the universal police force then sometimes that requires breaking down a few doors and making arrests - you don't like? Then find another cop to do the job. Our intent was not to grab land or annex a country. Instead, it was to kick ass, take names and get out. The first 2 parts of our intent work out marvelously, but part three had some unexpected issues. Another thing to consider is if McCain was in Bush's shoes during Gulf 2 would he have gone into Iraq? Once he was the top guy with all the responsibility would he have done it?

I've been working long hours the last week (which is why there were no posts from me for a while) and never really got the full scoop about how this Russia/Georgia thing started but from what I've heard Russia is trying to go back to their old way of doing things.

Yep...You got it right. Being the Police either "of the world" or "at home" is all about...breaking down doors. Force is the core element of government.
08-16-2008 05:03 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #47
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
Fo Shizzle Wrote:This is thread should be called "lets split hairs over why governments kill people". This Ruskie crap and our Iraq boongoggle both speak volumes for the evil of governments and their murderous histories. No institution has murdered more people than government.03-idea

I can make an argument for religion. Especially since some of the nastiest governments in history were a marriage of government and extremeist religion.
08-16-2008 06:11 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #48
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
GGniner Wrote:Russia invades Georgia with no warning, apparently to seize land and Oil if they get away with it, to make part of Russia.

Huh? Didn't Georgia invade Ossetia, territory that is predominately full of Russian citizens and officially independent.

One could argue that Russia has the moral high ground over the U.S.:

Russia was at least attacking another country to protect its own citizens whereas the U.S. invaded a country that was no threat to it and had in the past been an ally. What U.S. citizens were we protecting? Saddam hated Al-Qaeda because of his ethnic group and he keep the Iranians in line. How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died because of our invasion?

All Russia did was respond to an attack (possibly involving ethnic cleansing) against its citizens. It had been declared the official peacekeeper for the region by the U.N. Russia hasn't taken over the country or overthrown its government. They've only made sure the Ossetia can't be attacked again.

Democracies can be just as immoral as dictatorships. Dictatorships are just more efficient.

Remember: "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." 05-stirthepot

America just needs to stay at home and stop being the "world police." We're wasting tax money and killing people for no reason. Let's just park the navy around the U.S. and Canada and tell the world to F*** Off. We'll just sell them crap and let them deal with their own problems. We'll be much wealthier and much safer. Who are we to say we know what's best for everyone else?
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2008 09:18 PM by Jugnaut.)
08-16-2008 09:15 PM
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perunapower Offline
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Post: #49
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
Jugnaut Wrote:Huh? Didn't Georgia invade Ossetia, territory that is predominately full of Russian citizens and officially independent.

According to who? No one in the UN has recognized that South Ossetia is independent of Georgia.

Quote:One could argue that Russia has the moral high ground over the U.S.:

Russia was at least attacking another country to protect its own citizens whereas the U.S. invaded a country that was no threat to it and had in the past been an ally. What U.S. citizens were we protecting? Saddam hated Al-Qaeda because of his ethnic group and he keep the Iranians in line. How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians have died because of our invasion?

All Russia did was respond to an attack (possibly involving ethnic cleansing) against its citizens. It had been declared the official peacekeeper for the region by the U.N. Russia hasn't taken over the country or overthrown its government. They've only made sure the Ossetia can't be attacked again.

Democracies can be just as immoral as dictatorships. Dictatorships are just more efficient.

Remember: "One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist." 05-stirthepot

America just needs to stay at home and stop being the "world police." We're wasting tax money and killing people for no reason. Let's just park the navy around the U.S. and Canada and tell the world to F*** Off. We'll just sell them crap and let them deal with their own problems. We'll be much wealthier and much safer. Who are we to say we know what's best for everyone else?

Rationalization, ignorant of key facts, and blind support for isolationism in an age of globalization. You really have taken the cake.

Both sides in this conflict have acted like idiots, but Russia isn't exactly defending itself or its citizens and Georgia isn't exactly a blameless victim of Russian expansionism.
08-16-2008 11:14 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #50
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
perunapower Wrote:
Jugnaut Wrote:Huh? Didn't Georgia invade Ossetia, territory that is predominately full of Russian citizens and officially independent.

According to who? No one in the UN has recognized that South Ossetia is independent of Georgia.
Taiwan isn't officially reconized as an independent nation either, & we certainly wouldn't support mainland Chinese efforts to retake the islands.

Quote:Both sides in this conflict have acted like idiots, but Russia isn't exactly defending itself or its citizens and Georgia isn't exactly a blameless victim of Russian expansionism.
This part I agree with completely.
08-17-2008 01:47 PM
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perunapower Offline
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Post: #51
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
jh Wrote:Taiwan isn't officially reconized as an independent nation either, & we certainly wouldn't support mainland Chinese efforts to retake the islands.

Taiwan is a whole other can of worms. International relations with Taipei are not comparable to relations with South Ossetia. Relations with Taiwan are a kind of pseudo-diplomatic/economic mess because no one wants to damage relations with China. Even then, I believe there are 23 nations that formally hold Taiwanese embassies, and consequently have no diplomatic relations with China.
08-17-2008 10:45 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #52
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
Times of London: Putin orders Ethinic Cleansing

Quote: “The soldiers told us they had an order from Putin - leave or be killed.” Manana Dioshvili showed no emotion as she described how Russian troops forced her to flee her home. Her former neighbours nodded in agreement, huddled together in a kindergarten whose windows had been blown out by a Russian bomb.

“That’s how they explained themselves to us,” she recalled of the moment they fled the ethnic Georgian village of Kurta, near the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.

“They said, ‘Putin has given us an order that everyone must be either shot or forced to leave’. They told us we should ask the Americans for help now because they would kill us if we stayed.”
Vardo Babutidze, 79, was not lucky enough to be visited by Russian soldiers. Her husband Georgi, 85, was shot twice through the chest by an Ossetian paramilitary who came to their house to demand weapons.

as Robert Kagan has been saying for awhile now: "History's Back", return of hard power and end of fantasies.


Western World to Putin: "Stop it" <insert nuanced rhetoric>

Putin: "Make Me!"
(This post was last modified: 08-18-2008 07:33 AM by GGniner.)
08-18-2008 07:32 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #53
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
smn1256 Wrote:I believe our proud Republican presidential nominee misspoke. We invaded Granada to save Americans and it was the right thing to do, and we got out after we did it. If I was the king of Israel the first thing I'd do is invade any Palestinian controlled area that launched another rocket into my kingdom - and I'd be right in doing it because bombing my sovereign land is an act of war.

we did do that, we also stopped a Marxist Govt. from taking root there like Cuba as Soviet puppets were putting into place.

Reagan liked to say that Marxist expansion didn't gain any new land during his administration. Thanks to everything he did in Central America to stop it, as well as Afghanistan and elsewhere.
08-18-2008 07:37 AM
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Post: #54
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
perunapower Wrote:
jh Wrote:Taiwan isn't officially reconized as an independent nation either, & we certainly wouldn't support mainland Chinese efforts to retake the islands.

Taiwan is a whole other can of worms. International relations with Taipei are not comparable to relations with South Ossetia. Relations with Taiwan are a kind of pseudo-diplomatic/economic mess because no one wants to damage relations with China. Even then, I believe there are 23 nations that formally hold Taiwanese embassies, and consequently have no diplomatic relations with China.

I agree, but it should be noted that those are the nations that are small enough for Taiwan to successfully bribe while also being insignificant enough that they don't care if they have formal relations with China. Most other nations would probably have formal relations with Taiwan if it weren't for the bullying of the Mainland. Those nations have an informal guest house or something of that sort that functions as a Taiwanese embassy.
08-18-2008 08:13 AM
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jh Offline
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Post: #55
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
perunapower Wrote:
jh Wrote:Taiwan isn't officially reconized as an independent nation either, & we certainly wouldn't support mainland Chinese efforts to retake the islands.

Taiwan is a whole other can of worms. International relations with Taipei are not comparable to relations with South Ossetia. Relations with Taiwan are a kind of pseudo-diplomatic/economic mess because no one wants to damage relations with China. Even then, I believe there are 23 nations that formally hold Taiwanese embassies, and consequently have no diplomatic relations with China.

I don't see where there is much of a difference. Political considerations prevent the majority of the international community, including the UN, from recognizing Taiwan. I suspect it's the same (political considerations, not Chinese relations) with South Ossetia, or possibly more likely simple indifference. Before this whole mess started, who had even heard of South Ossetia? The fact that Russia is willing to recognize South Ossetia doesn't really make it's bid for independence any more or less legitimate, but neither does the support of the 23 nations which recognize Taiwan.
08-18-2008 08:19 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
GGniner Wrote:
I45owl Wrote:
GGniner Wrote:its really not, read the resolution. WMD got played up in some speeches because it was the narrative created in the 90's and something everyone beleived around the world and Saddam insisted he had up till the war resumed. Doug Feith details in his book how in reality WMD was down the list of reasons for removing Saddam and finishing the conflict he started.

The resolution is somewhat immaterial in this discussion. The greatest mistake that was made in the Iraq war was by the administration in not adequately convincing the US public of the need to go to war. Contrasting the statements out of the US Executive Branch to the speeches that Tony Blair made in front of Parliament was really striking. The public face of the administration was that WMD was the primary reason for going to war with Iraq. Tony Blair put much more emphasis on Sadaam's abuse of the Iraqi people, his support for regional terrorism, and his constant flouting of international agreements. The US administration made the political decision to simplify the case to the American people and over-emphasize WMD in making the case. It was a mistake at the time, and the failure to find subsequent stockpiles in the amounts that world intelligence agencies had expected proved that error to be much more damaging.


Oh I agree, although its hindsight of course. and at the time it wsa the only thing everyone agreed to across the aisle and in the 'international community" all the way to Saddam himself(publicly). It opened up a pandora's box that has hurt, paticularly with the type of media we have that suddenly became uninterested in a decades worth of their own reporting.

I agree with Kissenger on this and try my best to make these points myself. in public speeches(PR Arena) should've emphasized as much as the WMD, the Terrorist ties and support and simply sold resuming Hostilities and "regime change" on the fact that after 9/11 we could no longer allow another Rouge regime that to remain in power. It would've sold fine, instead they opened themselves up for attack, although some WMD were found but not what they claimed to be going for specifically. Since then they should've emphasized in Public speeches repeatedly Al-Qaeda's top leaders calling Iraq the "greatest battle of importance" to them.


even Howard Dean recognized Saddam as an "Outlaw Regime", I figure they never guessed what the left would get away with politically at the time.


Quote:It's obviously helpful to provide the full context. I, and I presume others, have been pretty lazy at looking at the quote out of context. The error is in inadequately crafting his speech to avoid just that kind of "sound bite". It's usually only in politics that a single sentence outlives and outshines the salient points. The fact that the speech in context is sensible has almost no bearing on the political impact of that one sentence.

McCain's a political doofus, no doubt. His quote isn't really my problem so much as Cafferty and what they are suggesting/implying.

A political Doofus? Because he expects to speak to people with a 5th grade intelligence rather than someone whose opinions are primarily formed by bumper stickers? (not you, those who base their opinions on a sound-byte)

We wonder why we get poor politicians and then fuss at them for speaking to us intelligently rather than parse every statement so that even a moron couldn't take it out of context??
08-18-2008 11:13 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
jh Wrote:
perunapower Wrote:
jh Wrote:Taiwan isn't officially reconized as an independent nation either, & we certainly wouldn't support mainland Chinese efforts to retake the islands.

Taiwan is a whole other can of worms. International relations with Taipei are not comparable to relations with South Ossetia. Relations with Taiwan are a kind of pseudo-diplomatic/economic mess because no one wants to damage relations with China. Even then, I believe there are 23 nations that formally hold Taiwanese embassies, and consequently have no diplomatic relations with China.

I don't see where there is much of a difference. Political considerations prevent the majority of the international community, including the UN, from recognizing Taiwan. I suspect it's the same (political considerations, not Chinese relations) with South Ossetia, or possibly more likely simple indifference. Before this whole mess started, who had even heard of South Ossetia? The fact that Russia is willing to recognize South Ossetia doesn't really make it's bid for independence any more or less legitimate, but neither does the support of the 23 nations which recognize Taiwan.


If you read McCain's quote, you can CLEARLY see that he is saying...

Invasion of another country is wrong.

We will learn over the next few days if the invasion was warranted/provoked (obviously implying that there are times when being "wrong" is the right thing to do)

Warranted or not, we urge restraint... especially in that the Turks and Kurds are probably watching pretty closely.

WTF is wrong with that?? How is that inconsistent with US policy in Iraq? Just because some don't think, agree or realize that our "invasion" of Iraq was warranted, doesn't mean that it wasn't. McCain is CLEARLY allowing for the fact that Russias actions may have been provoked/warranted... though there don't appear to be any of the UN resolutions and findings to support the claim of ethnic cleansing and soveriegnty of Ossetia that existed in re Iraq, and were part of their excuse for NOT wanting to invade Iraq.

Talk about moral relativism.
(This post was last modified: 08-18-2008 11:30 AM by Hambone10.)
08-18-2008 11:29 AM
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jh Offline
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Post: #58
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
Hambone10 Wrote:If you read McCain's quote, you can CLEARLY see that he is saying...

Invasion of another country is wrong.

We will learn over the next few days if the invasion was warranted/provoked (obviously implying that there are times when being "wrong" is the right thing to do)

Warranted or not, we urge restraint... especially in that the Turks and Kurds are probably watching pretty closely.

WTF is wrong with that?? How is that inconsistent with US policy in Iraq? Just because some don't think, agree or realize that our "invasion" of Iraq was warranted, doesn't mean that it wasn't. McCain is CLEARLY allowing for the fact that Russias actions may have been provoked/warranted... though there don't appear to be any of the UN resolutions and findings to support the claim of ethnic cleansing and soveriegnty of Ossetia that existed in re Iraq, and were part of their excuse for NOT wanting to invade Iraq.

Talk about moral relativism.

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from here. I've already said that I didn't think this quote was a big deal, although I do believe that he made an incorrect statement, or at least a clumsily worded one. I believe that an invasion is either right or wrong, justified or not. I don't believe that being "wrong" is ever the right thing to do & I don't agree that you can condem a nation for an invasion if you don't already know they are not justified (which he may well have strongly believed but did not want to say yet).

Hambone10, you believe the invasion of Iraq was warranted. Do you believe that it was wrong? I just don't see how those two positions can coexist.

I've also not offered up any real defense of the Russian invasion. I have mentioned that I thought Georgia was the first to break the terms of the ceasefire, which might be incorrect. As additional information emerges, I'm more & more convinced that Russia is primarily at fault, though I remain convinced that the Georgian president did a terrible job at reading & understanding the situation & though he could get away with it.

The thing that I find most intersting in this entire situation is the status of South Ossetia. I'm sticking up for the little guy, not defending the bully.
08-18-2008 12:23 PM
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Post: #59
RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
Rice: Military power is "not the way to deal in the 21st century"

It's hardly news that the U.S., like many countries, espouses standards that it routinely violates, but still, even in light of such routine hypocrisy, wouldn't you think that this, from Condoleezza Rice today, on an airplane to U.S. reporters while traveling to a NATO meeting, would be too brazen to utter:

“Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.”

Whatever one's views are on the justifiability of each isolated instance, it's simply a fact that the U.S. invades, bombs, occupies, and interferes in the internal affairs of other countries far more than any other country on the planet. It's not even a close competition.

Just during the time Rice has served in the Bush administration, we bombed, invaded and occupied Afghanistan; did the same to Iraq; repeatedly bombed Somalia, killing all sorts of civilians; fed bombs to Israel as they invaded and bombed Lebanon; top political officials (led by John McCain and Joe Lieberman) have repeatedly threatened, and advocated, that the same be done to a whole host of other countries, including Iran and Syria. That's to say nothing of the virtually countless interventions and bombings in the pre-Bush, "peacetime" years -- from the Balkans and Panama to Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, and on and on and on.

The most enduring and predominant rule of American politics is that every national politician must demonstrate their willingness, even eagerness, to start wars. On the day in 1989 that the first George Bush ordered the deadly U.S. invasion of Panama, The New York Times' R.W. Apple approvingly wrote on the front page that starting wars like that was "a Presidential initiation rite," and that "most American leaders since World War II have felt a need to demonstrate their willingness to shed blood to protect or advance what they construe as the national interest." Thus, proclaimed Apple, Bush's attack on Panama was an example of his "showing his steel" and "has shown him as a man capable of bold action."

A Kos diarist today hailed Joe Biden as an excellent Vice Presidential choice and, to bolster his argument, posted a video of Biden from a couple of months ago, appearing on The Today Show with Matt Lauer. The diarist believes the video shows how "tough" and "aggressive" Biden is. Lauer asked Biden how Democrats could combat the perception that Republicans are more trustworthy on national security because Democrats are "weak," and Biden assured Lauer that he had the right strategy to combat that:

LAUER: [McCain's] argument -- the Democratic Party itself, somewhere in the late 1960s, became weak on national security, at least perceived to be weak -- we started to see a party wringing its hands and blaming American for what's wrong in the world. Now, as we look at the upcoming election, particularly between a war hero and Barack Obama, do you think that's going to be a major problem for Democrats?

BIDEN: I think that's what they're going to revive. There's truth to that. I ran in 1972 as a young 29-year-old guy who won the Senate seat, being the guy who was viewed as a hawk, because I didn't join in that mantra. It was Bill Clinton -- and, I might say, me pushing it -- saying that you had to go to war in the Balkans to end genocide. It was John McCain initially saying, no no no you can't do that -- the Republicans voting, no no no we can't do that.

Apparently, that's the way many Democrats believe they can and should answer the accusations that they're "weak" on national security -- not by contesting the underlying premises that starting wars is a sign of "strength,' but instead, by proving that they, too, want to prosecute wars -- just perhaps in different places or with different tactics. As Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in 2002, Biden also voted to authorize the attack on Iraq.

And Biden just returned from visiting Georgia, spouting all sorts of bluster towards Russia ("Russia's actions in Georgia will have consequences") and demanding that $1 billion of U.S. taxpayer money be transferred to Georgia to help them after they decided to start their own war (McClatchy: "Biden talks tough after Georgia visit"). As Billmon documented yesterday, Biden has been a leading proponent of passing legislation to demand NATO admission for Georgia and, even without it, to treat Georgia as though it is a full-fledged U.S. ally (Billmon: "There are times, it seems, when Joe Biden can be damned near as dangerous as Dick Cheney"). In Biden's mind, nobody will accuse him of being "weak" -- because he exudes the mandatory affection for using U.S. military force in a wide variety of situations far beyond self-defense.

The idea that the U.S. can, should and must be, more or less, in a state of permanent war, and can start wars in a whole host of circumstances having nothing to do with defending the country from an attack or imminent attack, is as close to an unchallengeable, bipartisan article of faith as it gets. We're a country that fights wars and uses military force in far more places and for far broader reasons than any other country in the world, by far. Again, regardless of one's views about whether our wars are really Good and Just -- even if one believes that what we drop on other countries are Good and Loving Freedom Bombs -- it's still just a fact that no country views military action as a more appropriate response in more situations than the U.S. does.

That's why it's so amazing to watch Condoleezza Rice, more or less without contradiction, say things like this:

Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.

Other than our media elite, is there anyone who doesn't recognize how absurd it is for Rice to be issuing a sermon like that? Who is the target audience for that? And what does it say about our political discourse that Rice knows she can say things like that with a straight face -- and, before her, that John McCain can do much the same -- without its being pointed out how darkly laughable it is?
08-20-2008 07:47 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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RE: John McCain with the quote of the day.
08-20-2008 08:07 AM
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