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If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
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WoodlandsOwl Offline
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Post: #21
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
Yesterday was nothing but Hillary "whoring" for $11 million.

She was a "good girl"... She made a "nice speech"... but I could tell she didn't mean it.

She stopped the Roll Call and called for "unity"

Now the DNC/Obama better pay up..
08-28-2008 10:09 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:
perunapower Wrote:Do you have any justification for that $50,000 figure or did you just make it up? Every time I've heard Obama talk about increasing taxes, the figure has been 5 times that amount.

I don't know where the $50,000 came from, but the idea that Obama's tax increases will reach way below the stated target income levels is right conceptually for several reasons.

1. If you look at Obama's taxing and spending proposals, the tax changes don't produce enough revenues to support the spending changes, let alone close the deficit. Shutting down Iraq completely provides some savings, but not nearly enough to close the gap. Moreover, the Iraq effect isn't nearly as big as even the raw numbers would suggest because a significant portion of what is now considered Iraq spending (soldiers' salaries, meals, equipment maintenance) wouldn't go away entirely if we brought them home, although some declines (reservists' salaries) would occur. In short, his numbers don't add up. Is he going to tell some special interest to whom he pandered with the promise of a special program that Christmas isn't coming after all, or is he going to redefine the "rich" down to a lower level of income? If the latter, how low? Probably not $50,000; but to get the revenue he needs it's going to be a lot less than five times $50,000. Run the numbers, and two times $50,000 is more realistic.

2. The Obama proposal, like all proposals to tax the "rich," has one fatally flawed assumption. It assumes that those "rich" will respond by saying, "OK, my taxes went up, I'll just live on less." What they do say is, "Obama is raising taxes, where can I put my money to escape them?" What makes this more peverse is that the truly rich can do this and live off their assets, which do not constitute taxable income to them. The people who can't are those that are just getting ahead, who are still trying to pay for their house and their kids' college education and maybe retire a few student loans. Michelle Obama herself admitted this when she talked during the primary campaign about how hard it was for Barack and her to make ends meet and pay off their student loans when they were trying to live on what then would have been abut $250,000 in Chicago. Funny how that same number means "rich" when Barack is talking about other peoples' incomes, but "poor" when Michelle talks about themselves. The tax rate increases will fall short of the projected revenues, because the assumptions regarding investment income won't happen because current levels and types of investment will change in response to tax changes. You see this with capital gains--raise the rates, tax revenues decrease; lower the rates, tax revenues increase--that's the historic pattern.

3. Moving investments away from things that get taxed inevitably means that fewer jobs get created. There's just no other possible result. Those people making $50,000 are right in the crosshairs on this one. The good news is your taxes are lower; the bad news is you don't have a job. Doesn't sound like a win to me. This also means that nationwide taxable income is less, so overall tax revenues are less, so you have to cancel spending programs that were promised to special interests, or you have to redefine "rich" down to a lower level.

4. Consider the case of your doctor. He finds out that tax rates are going up on people in his income bracket. He can go home and tell his wife, "Taxes are going up, so we need to live on less." Or he can fire a nurse. Or he can raise what he charges you when you go to see him. That doesn't really affect you directly, because your insurance pays it. Or maybe insurance just pays up to a certain amount, and you have to pay the rest, so it does affect you. And the insurance company spreads that cost out over everyone, and gets it back in premiums, so in the end everybody pays your doctor's tax increase. And that includes lots of people making less than $50,000. So your doc has three options. One of them has the "rich" paying more taxes. The other two take it out on people in the $50,000 range. Which one do you think he picks?

5. We are in a battle for world economic supremacy. In a world where a single weapon can devastate a huge city, the great powers of the future will be great economic powers rather than great military powers. Having the strongest military in the world is still prudent, as long as we can do so, but it doesn't guarantee success or prosperity. The best thing we can do to make life better for those making $50,000 a year, indeed for everyone, is to win the economic battle. Perot understood this, but I don't think any presidential candidate since has. We are not in a closed system, where the only consideration is taking money from our "rich" to pay our "poor." If we try to take too much from the "rich" they'll choose to be rich elsewhere. If we raise taxes on corporations, and Ireland lowers them, then some corporations are going to locate in Ireland rather than here. If we raise taxes on capital gains and Germany eliminates taxes on capital gains, then some people are going to invest in Germany rather than here. That means Ireland and Germany also get jobs and export sales that we don't, and we get to import things from Ireland and Germany. The same doesn't exactly apply to high income individuals because the US has this policy of taxing on worldwide income, but they can find ways to get income sheltered through offshore corporations. Won't happen in every case, of course, but if it happens in enough cases to cost us 1 or 2 percent growth each year, that will hurt big time over the years.


You've hit the nail on the head for my problems with Obama. His solutions make TONS of sense on paper, and sound great. The problem comes when you put pencil to paper. In MANY of his proposals... particularly the most important ones like healthcare... You simply can't get there from here...

When you compound the problem by knowing that "the rich", or at least the ULTRA rich (remember, Michelle herself lamented how tough it was to pay school loans and raise 2 kids in Chicago on 250k/year) will react to tax increases by adjusting their behaviour to avoid the increase... Where is even the EXPECTED money going to come from?? the ONLY answer is even higher taxes (which once again, won't impact the people the hikes are intended to impact) or by lowering the brackets.

The solution to healthcare is for this country to decide that insurance is insurance... and everyone (meaning all citizens or legal workers I guess) gets at least THIS level of insurance. We use current corporate America as the model, and decide that there are 250mm people LEGAL to work in this country (whether or not they do) and that the premium is $7,000 per person per year. At least we know what the cost is. From there, we decide that businesses will either be taxed to pay the premiums, or have them pay them and then deduct the expense. The cost of medicaid/medicare ofsets much of this.

Companies can offer premium packages... which I'm sure the better ones will, or employees can purchase upgrades/add ons as we already generally do. I think most companies will offer exactly what they currently offer. Those that don't currently offer benefits will offer only the mandated amounts, and medicaid/medicare will pay for it.

Those not eligible for insurance will generally only be those here illegally who have illegal jobs. They can be handled as they are now... as a drain on the system... but the drain will not be compounded by those here legally without insurance... and will serve as less of an incentive to be here illegally.

The figure will be big... but its time we admitted we have a problem and deal with it honestly as opposed to constantly talking about universal healthcare only to fail to come anywhere near getting it and blaming "the other side" for the failure.

Too many politicians are interested in blaming someone for how we got here, and not interested in simply saying we're here... what do we do.
08-28-2008 11:21 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #23
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
Rebel Wrote:
WMD Owl Wrote:
Rebel Wrote:
BGSUalum1987 Wrote:If Obama (or anyone else, for that matter) paid me $11 million, everything would be hunky dory here, too.

Hell yeah. I'd even vote for Obama. 02-13-banana


Then he would tax you and just take it all back...

He can't tax me when I'm living in Belize.

Wrong...You now have to pay a tax on assets you take out of the country during expatriation. I guess you could find a way to sneak out the cash like the Uberich do.
08-28-2008 11:30 AM
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jh Offline
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Post: #24
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
Hambone10 Wrote:I've read articles recently talking about how McCain has more money to spend because he's about to get $80mm in public funds while Obama won't. Implying that McCain (like ALL rich men) is going to buy the election. Nothing is said about the fact that Obama has already spent more than twice what McCain has, and can raise and spend more than the $80mm McCain can spend. I recall the issue you are describing... but I also recall that Obama initially said he would opt in... as did McCain... and then Obama opted out saying the rules were somehow unfair.
I did a little more reading & think I understand my confusion - the campaign finance laws are broken into two separate parts (one for the primary and one for the general election). The confusion over whether McCain was in or out of the public financing system was just for the primary election - it looks like he always intended to accept public financing for the general election.

Campaign finance laws are hard.
08-28-2008 06:40 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #25
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
Hambone10 Wrote:You've hit the nail on the head for my problems with Obama. His solutions make TONS of sense on paper, and sound great. The problem comes when you put pencil to paper. In MANY of his proposals... particularly the most important ones like healthcare... You simply can't get there from here...

When you compound the problem by knowing that "the rich", or at least the ULTRA rich (remember, Michelle herself lamented how tough it was to pay school loans and raise 2 kids in Chicago on 250k/year) will react to tax increases by adjusting their behaviour to avoid the increase... Where is even the EXPECTED money going to come from?? the ONLY answer is even higher taxes (which once again, won't impact the people the hikes are intended to impact) or by lowering the brackets.

The solution to healthcare is for this country to decide that insurance is insurance... and everyone (meaning all citizens or legal workers I guess) gets at least THIS level of insurance. We use current corporate America as the model, and decide that there are 250mm people LEGAL to work in this country (whether or not they do) and that the premium is $7,000 per person per year. At least we know what the cost is. From there, we decide that businesses will either be taxed to pay the premiums, or have them pay them and then deduct the expense. The cost of medicaid/medicare ofsets much of this.

Companies can offer premium packages... which I'm sure the better ones will, or employees can purchase upgrades/add ons as we already generally do. I think most companies will offer exactly what they currently offer. Those that don't currently offer benefits will offer only the mandated amounts, and medicaid/medicare will pay for it.

Those not eligible for insurance will generally only be those here illegally who have illegal jobs. They can be handled as they are now... as a drain on the system... but the drain will not be compounded by those here legally without insurance... and will serve as less of an incentive to be here illegally.

The figure will be big... but its time we admitted we have a problem and deal with it honestly as opposed to constantly talking about universal healthcare only to fail to come anywhere near getting it and blaming "the other side" for the failure.

Too many politicians are interested in blaming someone for how we got here, and not interested in simply saying we're here... what do we do.

I would not agree that Obama's proposals make sense on paper, but that may be more of a semantic difference. I think we may be saying the same thing two different ways, probably because to me "on paper" includes what is spelled out in details, and if the details don't add up then the plan doesn't add up. I think Obama gives great speeches, but I don't see much steak to go with the sizzle.

What you've described for health care is pretty close to what France has. I've been a consumer in their system and it works. Last time I checked, their number is actually about $3400 per person per year. They obviously do a better job of cost containment than we do. Also, their basic plan is not as good as what we would typically expect in a corporate plan. But they allow the kinds of upgrades you mention, and that means that the average French employee has a health care plan that is comparable to the average US employee. The government portion of theirs is paid for out of social security, by the way; but then, they don't maintain this charade that there is some kind of metaphysical social security trust fund out there.
(This post was last modified: 08-28-2008 10:32 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-28-2008 09:03 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: If Obama paid Hillary $11 million, everything would be "hunky dory"....
yes... I agree our differences are semantics... Saying you want to lower everyones premiums and streamline the process while delivering quality healthcare to everyone looks great on paper... but when you put pencil to paper (my term meaning do the math, as opposed to writing it down... sorry) it doesn't add up... and I think I pulled the $7,000 figure out of thin air.
08-29-2008 10:48 AM
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