Trip,
Artifice was an abused as a child. Wah,Wah. Pet the puppy.....

While you have your nightmares I have my warm fuzzy dreams of us creating an alternative resource so we leave the god foresaken place. Those 15% of the people hate us because we bomb the **** out of them. We killed innocents in our Shock and Awe. They despise us because we are over there. Let's cut the funding source of the swamp of perpetual hell. It's a clear and present danger to rely on oil. Everyone knows it but there is TOO g damn much money tied to it. I'm driving my kid's to school last night and the radio is filled with people bitching about the bailout. It's approaching 35 billion. That's three and a half months in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which one's going to benefit American's more????? Tie the money to electrical cars and cut the nuts off of OPEC!

I make too much sense. Just wanted to add that after I reread my post. In the immortal words of the great philospher T.O. "I love me some me".

Can I get a WITNESS!!!!!!

Machiavelli Wrote:While you have your nightmares I have my warm fuzzy dreams of us creating an alternative resource so we leave the god foresaken place. Those 15% of the people hate us because we bomb the **** out of them. We killed innocents in our Shock and Awe. They despise us because we are over there. Let's cut the funding source of the swamp of perpetual hell. It's a clear and present danger to rely on oil. Everyone knows it but there is TOO g damn much money tied to it. I'm driving my kid's to school last night and the radio is filled with people bitching about the bailout. It's approaching 35 billion. That's three and a half months in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which one's going to benefit American's more????? Tie the money to electrical cars and cut the nuts off of OPEC!

Its not that easy Mach. There will always be a demand from someone for OPEC oil.

Still, they want to get us. Have you read Mahmoud's crazy rantings about his goal for bring forth the "Hidden Imam"??

If we find a way to fuel our cars without oil. Game Over.

Machiavelli Wrote:If we find a way to fuel our cars without oil. Game Over.

This is true. And it's also disingenuous to curse and demonize the "demons" we created by raising and supporting these tyrants and the destabilization of the region we have long massaged to our own advantage.

But that falls on deaf ears here. There are posters on here, GG Niner for sure, that believe this is really some struggle between good white christians and them dirty brown skinned heathens. Crusade numero 8. People like this are completely unaware of their status as the mirror image of the fanaticism they despise.

But I digress - the real folly in politics today is making ANY decisions based on some kind of ideology. They're all bull****, no matter how attractive they are to you. Due to their simplicity, they all make great soundbytes and message board fodder, but they are completely unworkable and unrealistic, and even worse, the political proponents of each are cycnical manipulative bastards trying to push an agenda that benefits them personallly (means to an end). Everys ituation should be measured and considered on its immediate, consequential, collateral and long term factors, and not decided according to some stupid ideology.

WMD Owl Wrote:By and large many of us are former or reserve members of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, who have exposure, training, or experience dealing with situations such as Iraq, Mumbai, etc.

Again, blah blah blah blah. Every male in my family, including my father, grandparents, great grandparents, six uncles, and several more cousins, has served in the armed services. WWI, WII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, and all four branches (no coast guard or reservists - all active duty). My uncle works for the NSA right now. We talk about what he's allowed to tell me. My opinions are based on my own natural pragmatism reinforced by his discussions of the situations abroad. What he will tell you we need more of is pragmastism and the understanding that all this fundamentalist crap is just a means to an end for everyone involved. Its a grand game of manipulation over the populace to procure power and/or energy in the region.

He laughs at how knee jerk the american public is and how pathetic our understanding of the complexities are. he also told me that if we got off the oil teat, our entire foreign policy would change dramatically.

Machiavelli, your a legend in your own mind.

When oil is down to $25 a barrel, guess who is gonna want a bailout? You cannot have viable Alternate Energy with oil at $45 a barrel, unless the Fed kicks in to make it viable. Plain and Simple. Free markets can build you up or crush you to dust.

Machiavelli Wrote:jesus smn...................... but how would you know what is true?????? He is going to say anything to save them from torture. We have ways of making people talk without going Conan on them. I would never want to cross you smn!!!

Mach, you have not a thing to fear unless you really, really screw me over very, very badly because it is at that time I begin to dwell and obsess of getting you. Example:

6 months after having open heart surgery I decided to have the floors in my home tiled. Because I have a lot of expensive stereo equipment and needed to have someone I could trust to be in my home while I'm at work I went the-friend-of-a-friend route. This guy turned out to be the absolutely wrong choice. After 6 weeks he only had about 30 tiles laid because he was never there. When he was there the work he did do was very bad and the tiles needed to be ripped up and re-laid, sometimes they broke and I had to buy new ones. When I wasn't home this guy went through my drawers, used my phone, ate my food and used my car to run errands in. My house was a disaster and when I confronted him about it he said he was quitting the job because I had stressed him out. I said OK, just give me back my $10k and all the materials I paid for and call it even. This money thing lasted for about 2 weeks and when he said it was all my fault and that he wanted to sue me I went friggin berserk.

At the time I had two rather large and intimidating looking black employees who owed me some favors and they went to the guys house, dragged him ass outside, pulled down his pants and threatened to castrate him if he did not pay me. But the game continued and he continued to taunt me. I was stressed out and my heart was taking a beating so I called my 2 friends again. This time they were to grab him and hold him until I got there and I was going to break his arms and legs with a baseball bat, a 34 ounce bat, I believe. Not only did I want revenge, somehow I never wanted him to do this to someone else again. Turns out that when the guy realized I was after him again he turned himself in and went to jail for 2 years for misuse of contracting funds. I never got my pound of flesh but I still had to pay off the bank who loaned me the money for my home improvement.

BTW, before going cro-magnon I did go to the police who did absolutely nothing to help me.

I can honestly say I don't wake up in the morning intending to screw anyone and I apologize profusely if I ever do anything to undeservedly give someone grief or cost them in any way.

The Big Fo Wrote:To suggest that you would "kidnap and torture" innocent persons because of the actions of one of their family members is really disturbing and I have now formed a new opinion of your morality.

Fo, I could not do to the terrorist what I described as there is no hate inside me for him. I couldn't even do it to the 911 bastards and I did have a degree of hate. But trust me on this, I absolutely would do what I described if I thought it would save my innocent family.

The big Fo again Wrote:Wrong...What separates us from the animals is the ability use reason in our actions... Animals act on instinct.

Revenge takes reasoning and I know of no animal that actually engages in revenge...therefore, my original quote holds true.

smn

We've all been jacked around in one form or another. Just be careful, you see what happened to OJ when he took the law into his own hands. Take Care.

smn1256 Wrote:

Machiavelli Wrote:jesus smn...................... but how would you know what is true?????? He is going to say anything to save them from torture. We have ways of making people talk without going Conan on them. I would never want to cross you smn!!!

Mach, you have not a thing to fear unless you really, really screw me over very, very badly because it is at that time I begin to dwell and obsess of getting you. Example:

6 months after having open heart surgery I decided to have the floors in my home tiled. Because I have a lot of expensive stereo equipment and needed to have someone I could trust to be in my home while I'm at work I went the-friend-of-a-friend route. This guy turned out to be the absolutely wrong choice. After 6 weeks he only had about 30 tiles laid because he was never there. When he was there the work he did do was very bad and the tiles needed to be ripped up and re-laid, sometimes they broke and I had to buy new ones. When I wasn't home this guy went through my drawers, used my phone, ate my food and used my car to run errands in. My house was a disaster and when I confronted him about it he said he was quitting the job because I had stressed him out. I said OK, just give me back my $10k and all the materials I paid for and call it even. This money thing lasted for about 2 weeks and when he said it was all my fault and that he wanted to sue me I went friggin berserk.

At the time I had two rather large and intimidating looking black employees who owed me some favors and they went to the guys house, dragged him ass outside, pulled down his pants and threatened to castrate him if he did not pay me. But the game continued and he continued to taunt me. I was stressed out and my heart was taking a beating so I called my 2 friends again. This time they were to grab him and hold him until I got there and I was going to break his arms and legs with a baseball bat, a 34 ounce bat, I believe. Not only did I want revenge, somehow I never wanted him to do this to someone else again. Turns out that when the guy realized I was after him again he turned himself in and went to jail for 2 years for misuse of contracting funds. I never got my pound of flesh but I still had to pay off the bank who loaned me the money for my home improvement.

BTW, before going cro-magnon I did go to the police who did absolutely nothing to help me.

I can honestly say I don't wake up in the morning intending to screw anyone and I apologize profusely if I ever do anything to undeservedly give someone grief or cost them in any way.

The Big Fo Wrote:To suggest that you would "kidnap and torture" innocent persons because of the actions of one of their family members is really disturbing and I have now formed a new opinion of your morality.

Fo, I could not do to the terrorist what I described as there is no hate inside me for him. I couldn't even do it to the 911 bastards and I did have a degree of hate. But trust me on this, I absolutely would do what I described if I thought it would save my innocent family.

The big Fo again Wrote:Wrong...What separates us from the animals is the ability use reason in our actions... Animals act on instinct.

Revenge takes reasoning and I know of no animal that actually engages in revenge...therefore, my original quote holds true.

Your original comment did not qualify defense of your family...It was just violent and immoral. I also would do what ever was necessary to protect my family. I have no problem with defending ones loved ones...but...to suggest that the state use torture to extract information is another thing...I'm glad you explained your position fully.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Your original comment did not qualify defense of your family...It was just violent and immoral. I also would do what ever was necessary to protect my family. I have no problem with defending ones loved ones...but...to suggest that the state use torture to extract information is another thing...I'm glad you explained your position fully.

What I described is the worst type of torture I could ever experience. Under those circumstances I would truthfully talk and I'm assuming the terrorists would, too. While I couldn't do it without being the victim of extreme circumstances I would be understanding of a victim of a terrorist act using those methods in order to do whatever they needed to do in order to survive or prevent another attack. Remember, the torturing of the family doesn't start until after the terrorist is caught in a lie. BTW, this is the method used by 1980's Russia when they were victimized by terrorists and this method made such an impact on me I continue to think about it today. It actually gives me the creeps.

Fo Shizzle,
Is your real name OJ?

.

That is why they call it a "Deterrence" Steve. Makes you shiver and grimace at the thought of it happening to you if you are a Murdering Freak of Nature and GET CAUGHT. Don't these Idiots train their Dogs to Save the Last Bullet for your self ??? I mean just one little bullet to the head and this Maggot would be screwing 70 Virgins right now !!!!!

Stooge !!!!

And this most simple concept is beyond the grand understanding of our Jolly Band of High Minded Uber-Liberals that post here. (not talking about you FO)

So you guys won't pinch some sick murdering freaks nuts in a vice after he just blew away over 300 People in a '3' day terror & torture rampage ???

Squeeze them until they BURST and get information that puts you on top of the Next Bunch of Idiot Zealots who want to come-a-murderin' ???

I may burn in Hell because I squeezed a testicle or two in a huge ass vice, but I will Burn with a clear conscience from saving hundreds and maybe even thousands of Innocent Civilians. (these animals gunned down little BABIES and SMALL CHILDREN !!!!!)

A Ball POP is to good for them as it is.

And I don't want to hear that old stupid argument that Any Body will say anything under Torture, well NO THEY WON'T ... a Professional Interrogator knows an Appeasement Statement versus THE Plausible TRUTH.

Steve, Paul, SUM - - we have an acquaintance on another Board, who lives just 15km from Mumbai and he says the Body Count is much much higher than the Government is releasing to the public - - I guess they don't want the Terrorist Freaks to get the idea they really scored in the range of 9/11.

Now, as Pat Benatar sang, "Hit me with your Best Shot, Come on and Hit me with your Best Shot, FFFFIIIIRRRREEE AAAAWWWAAAYYYYYY" .... ba donk da donk baaa donk ta donk taaaaaaa .....

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Tripster Wrote:That is why they call it a "Deterrence" Steve.

I do believe we should make it so painfull to commit terrorist acts that the bad guys would absolutely and without a doubt think twice about committing them. Do we sacrifice 10 of their innocent lives to save thousands of ours? Don't forget that the people they killed on 911, London, Madrid, Bali, etc were all innocent and I'm sure their families now think along my line.