We have been discussing this on the A-10 page but, since it is really a CAA issue, now is the time to introduce the topic to this board. Due to the impending explosion in CAA football schools when Old Dominion and Georgia State are ready, many people speculate that the CAA will split up, while others say the league will be fine with 14 members despite not needing so many at the FCS level.

My latest thought is that the CAA should try to trade Drexel to the A-10 in exchange for Fordham. The reasons for this are that Fordham has publicly stated that they will be adding scholarships in football, even if it means leaving the Patriot League, and Hofstra has supposedly been longing for a more local conference rival. A move like this would do a whole lot to help solve both of those issues.

The CAA could then add Albany, Stony Brook, and UNC Charlotte as football only members, bringing the total number to 18, and administer what would essentially be two separate leagues under the CAA name. Both sides would, by NCAA rules, receive automatic bids to the FCS playoffs and would be contractually scheduled against each other for multiple non-conference games every season.

CAA ORIGINAL FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Northeastern / Fordham
Hofstra / Delaware
Towson / James Madison
William & Mary / Old Dominion
Georgia State
MEMBERS WITH NO FOOTBALL (3): George Mason, VCU, and UNC Wilmington

CAA AFFILIATE FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Maine (basketball in AEC) / New Hampshire (basketball in AEC)
Massachusetts (basketball in A-10) / Rhode Island (basketball in A-10)
Albany (basketball in AEC) / Stony Brook (basketball in AEC)
Villanova (basketball in Big East)
Richmond (basketball in A-10) / UNC Charlotte (basketball in A-10)

A-10 AFTER A FORDHAM/DREXEL SWAP (14)
Massachusetts (football in CAA-2) / Rhode Island (football in CAA-2)
St. Bonaventure (non-football) / Duquesne (football in NEC)
Drexel (non-football) / Temple (football in MAC)
St. Joseph's (non-football) / LaSalle (non-football)
George Washington (non-football) / Richmond (football in CAA-2)
UNC Charlotte (football in CAA-2) / St. Louis (non-football)
Dayton (football in PFL) / Xavier (non-football)

I have nothing against Drexel, of course, and feel that they have done very well in the CAA. The resulting 9/3 alignment that the proposed trade would result in, however, mirrors the current set-up of the Southern Conference and is more suitable for a league like the CAA than the erstwhile 8/4 full members plus 6 affiliate schools deal. It would also give the CAA football brand control over 18 teams.

Down the road, contingency plans could include trying to recruit UNC Charlotte to the CAA in all sports if Northeastern were to ever leave as is sometimes rumored, and replacing them in the football affiliate league with a school like Central Connecticut if they are ready to move up by then. Gaining the upper hand in FCS football in both the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions would be a really big deal.

Putting four America East schools and four Atlantic-10 schools in what would be called the affiliate league, or some other more attractive name, could probably ensure that the CAA keeps control since their numbers would be evenly split and neither of those leagues has shown any ability to organize football whatsoever since the CAA took over a few years ago. I think this is an excellent solution.

KK -

I have seen this issue discussed ad nauseum... many "good" solutions have been proposed... I have to admit that I am lacking a little in knowledge on the subject... the issue for me is that Mason does not have a football team... I know that among Mason folks there is a strong desire to get a team... I don't share in the sentiment, but many feel that the CAA is headed towards becoming a football conference and that teams like Mason and VCU who are the big names in terms of hoops will be left in the cold...

not sure what to make of it... your solution looks reasonable... I guess the one thing I would disagree with is that everyone always seems to think NU is looking for a way out... I think the problem for NU is not that they want a way out, its that EVEN if they got their way out where the hell would they go?


at any rate, this is a GREAT discussion and I do hope that we can get some more football folks who can help continue a healthy discussion..

basketball is the tail that wags this dog
nothing will be done w/o the approval of the BB schools

The Colonial Athletic Association will swell to 14 football schools in 2012, when Georgia State joins.

Too many? Too few? Or just right?

Rather than fret about growing too big too fast, maybe the league will say what the heck and just super-size it.

If it does, there are two schools that would be a geographic fit for the league - surely more of a fit than Georgia State. Adding them would be cost effective at a time when schools everywhere are looking to save wherever they can.

HAMPTONROADS.COM

(07-02-2009 07:57 PM)EPJr Wrote:  The Colonial Athletic Association will swell to 14 football schools in 2012, when Georgia State joins.

Too many? Too few? Or just right?

Rather than fret about growing too big too fast, maybe the league will say what the heck and just super-size it.

If it does, there are two schools that would be a geographic fit for the league - surely more of a fit than Georgia State. Adding them would be cost effective at a time when schools everywhere are looking to save wherever they can.


HAMPTONROADS.COM

UNC Charlotte already is expected to join the CAA as a football only and take the conference to 15. I look forward to being in the SEC of the FCS.

I still contend that 18 makes a lot more sense than 14, 15, or 16. They can either go Original/Affiliate or North/South but 9 on each side, with a couple of permanent "non-conference" crossover opponents, is the most tenable solution for the CAA going forward.

CAA ORIGINAL FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Northeastern / Hofstra
Villanova (basketball in Big East)
Delaware / Towson
James Madison / William & Mary
Old Dominion / Georgia State

CAA AFFILIATE FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Maine (basketball in AEC) / New Hampshire (basketball in AEC)
Massachusetts (basketball in A-10) / Rhode Island (basketball in A-10)
Albany (basketball in AEC) / Stony Brook (basketball in AEC)
Fordham (basketball in A-10)
Richmond (basketball in A-10) / UNC Charlotte (basketball in A-10)

Since no schools will actually be traded, I left Villanova with the original CAA schools in this scenario, which makes more sense as far as rivalries are concerned. The other option is to go North/South, but with more separation, and mix all 18 members by location.

CAA NORTHERN FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Maine (basketball in AEC) / New Hampshire (basketball in AEC)
Massachusetts (basketball in A-10) / Rhode Island (basketball in A-10)
Northeastern / Hofstra
Albany (basketball in AEC) / Stony Brook (basketball in AEC)
Fordham (basketball in A-10)

CAA SOUTHERN FOOTBALL CONFERENCE (9)
Villanova (basketball in Big East)
Delaware / Towson
James Madison / Richmond (basketball in A-10)
William & Mary / Old Dominion
UNC Charlotte (basketball in A-10) / Georgia State

Once again, each program would have a set of permanent crossover opponents that would fill up two spots on its "non-conference" schedule every year, which makes that aspect of the athletic director's job very easy. Figuring out the details is on them though.

Make a new league that has FBS aspirations and a few solid non-football schools.

From the A10: Charlotte, Temple, Rhode Island, and UMass. Charlotte and Rhode Island would be non-FBS schools for the time being.

From the CAA: Delaware, Georgia State, James Madison, and Old Dominion. Not so hot on the hoops side. VCU and/or George Mason could always be included to beef up the hardwood rep.

From the Southern: Appalachian State. Davidson could be looked at as an outside possibility for non-football.

Other possible options: Georgia Southern and Florida A&M.

A New York presence would be great. I doubt Army would be interested as a football-only, but extend them an invite anyway. After they decline look into Hofstra, or yes laugh it up, Fordham. I would take Hofstra as a non-FBS and have the new Nassau sports complex host the hoop tourney.

I agree on the four you mentioned from the CAA. Temple is also a great choice, I don't see them staying with the MAC much longer, and they would have a great rivalry with Delaware. Appalachian State would also be a solid football add. That gets you to 6.

After that, I don't have much confidence. Georgia Southern and UMass seem to have little interest in moving up. FAMU and Charlotte don't have the money, although they have potential (as do a few other MEAC schools). Rhode Island football is on the ropes, and I'm guessing they drop the sport within five years. Youngstown State is another interesting possibility.

If at all possible, the best option would be to get Army and Navy. I think they would be ok playing in this conference. It would make scheduling easier, yet still allow for flexibility. They would be consistently competitive. It would also help them solidify multiple bowl tie-ins.

The neat and tidy scenario:
CAA (FBS)
Delaware
Temple
Old Dominion
James Madison
Appalachian State
Georgia State
Army
Navy

Atlantic 10 (takes over the current FCS conference from CAA)
Hofstra
Maine
UMass
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William and Mary
Fordham*
Duquesne/Charlotte*

I don't know much about Georgia Southern or FAMU. I do know that FAMU wanted to make the jump in the past. From what I've heard about UMass is they would move up if they had a regional conference. So having Army and Navy would help.

Charlotte and Rhode Island I like for non-football in place of Army and Navy. Adding another Virginia school there could make the league imbalanced.

I know there are 101 Scenarios but here is one that I've been mulling over... WHAT IF the CAA were to split 50/50, those who want to compete in FBS and those remaining FCS?
The FBS schools: Delaware, GMU, JMU, VCU, ODU, GA State
The FCS schools: Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, Towson, W&M, UNCW
Both would retain an automatic BB bid.
Under this scenario you could do the following:
(new) Eastern League (FBS)
UMass
Army* (FB Only/Patriot)
Temple
Delaware
Navy* (FB Only/Patriot)
James Madison
Old Dominion
Appalachian State
Georgia State
----------------
George Mason
VCU
Charlotte
With the addition of the 3 A-10 schools and App St we'd have 9 for FB, 10 for BB/olympic sports, with room for expansion.

(new) CAA (FCS)
Maine
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Fordham
Hofstra
Villanova* (FB Only/Big East)
Towson
W&M
Richmond
--------------------
Drexel
George Washington
UNCW
With the addition of the 4 A-10 schools and the 2 AEs they would have 10 for FB and 12 for BB/olympic sports.
Sure it would put a hurting on the remaining 7 A-10, but I think it would make for much better over-all conferences and answer the FBS/FCS situations for several schools.

I like that idea, Choo. Although I wouldn't place my bet on Army and Navy joining the football league.

In a hard to believe (but pretty cool) scenario I would love to see Fordham play FBS football in the Bronx at New Yankee Park. Out on Long Island, Hofstra could also be a great addition . I am just somewhat suspect of the support both would get. Fordham football is actually pretty historic. I imagine if they could get New Yankee, the general public would take interest.

I also like Rhode Island as non-football.

The CAA and SoCon schools with FBS ambitions are not going to be able to simply form a new conference and move up overnight. It has to be done in several steps. The first move is what I suggested from the start, a supersizing of CAA football, which will enable the schools staying at FCS to be able to withstand the eventual defections a few years later.

(08-26-2009 05:38 PM)BullsFanatic Wrote:  Georgia Southern and UMass seem to have little interest in moving up.

UMass has done 3 FBS studies in the last 10 years. There is definite interest in moving to FBS, the problem is there's no interest from the Big East, and the Powers That Be at UMass have no interest in the MAC. That ends the conference options. But if the better CAA programs move up together, that not only presents a more attractive FBS conference option than the MAC, it also makes staying behind in FCS look really bad. We do not want to be left alone with those other New England/New York schools that draw less than half our attendance. We rely on Delaware and JMU to be our benchmarks when we request funding. Those other schools would be voting to voluntarily cut back scholarships if the more ambitious programs weren't around, particularly in the North division.

As for Georgia Southern, they just completed a FBS study as well, but the conclusion was negative. They run a smaller budget athletic program than most people realize, it'd be a big leap for them despite their on-field success and history.

The CAA needs to invite Temple, UMass, and Appalachian State right now, plus one other school that most likely would be Charlotte. Rhode Island would balance the travel better, but Charlotte could play FBS one day. This allows the schools that want to go FBS the ability to do so. The CAA would be the Big East's shadow league, like the MAC and Sun Belt are to the Big Ten and SEC.

CAA Basketball
Northeastern
UMass
Hofstra
Drexel
Temple
Delaware
Towson
George Mason
VCU
Old Dominion
William & Mary
James Madison
Appalachian State
Charlotte
UNCW
Georgia State

Huge. Some not so strong basketball programs should be encouraged to look elsewhere. I think Rhode Island needs to be in there somehow.

CAA FBS
UMass
Temple
Delaware
Old Dominion
James Madison
Appalachian State
Charlotte#
Georgia State#

#-Obviously these schools have potential, and this would take years to finalize.

CAA FCS
Maine*
New Hampshire*
Northeastern
Rhode Island*
Hofstra
Towson
Richmond*
William & Mary

*-Football-only school. I'm not sure if adding Fordham as a FCS football-only member would work. The football-only members would have a voting majority. May not matter.

Atlantic 10
Rhode Island
St. Bona
Fordham
St. Joseph's
LaSalle
Duquesne
George Washington
Richmond
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis

Boston U and Butler would be easy additions. I'm not sure about this, maybe Holy Cross or CAA schools too?

Actually, that CAA-FBS league would shadow the ACC, not the Big East. With the exception of Temple, they're all in ACC states (if you figure DE = MD). Big East Football has no overlap at all with CAA-FBS.

The CAA-FCS league (which is missing Villanova) would fly apart though. If UMass and Delaware left, the other New England schools would quit and form a new conference with the SUNYs, probably under the America East banner. They don't care about playing William & Mary, Towson and the rest, it's not worth the travel for them, they just put up with it to hang out with UMass and Delaware. And Villanova and Richmond would seriously consider joining the Patriot League if the Patriot approves scholarships (coming to a league vote soon) and all the big CAA Football programs left. That leaves Northeastern, Hofstra, Towson and W&M. The first two are probably going to want to play in the new AEC league or the Patriot (if they'll have them), while W&M will want to be in the Patriot or SoCon if Nova and Richmond leave. They'd have to disband the FCS conference to allow the full CAA members to move. No idea where Towson could go in that scenario, unless they went FBS.

That CAA Basketball league won't work, they'd have to start over and form a new conference without all the dregs from the CAA and A10. Otherwise Temple and UMass would want to be football-only members.

I would agree that the A10 would invite Boston University if UMass left. I'm sure they'd prefer to have Holy Cross, but I don't think they'd accept. Butler would also fit in, but they may be happier where they are.

You're right it would be more like the ACC, guess I was just thinking 16 as a number would be like the Big East.

If the basketball league got rid of Towson and William & Mary it may look better. Drexel and UNCW can be good, but I like RIU instead of Drexel anyway. I went to UNCW too, so I would like to see us in a powerful league, Charlotte may discourage it though.

Do you think something like this for the FCS football leagues:

Maine
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Hofstra
Fordham
Stony Brook
Albany

What would happen here:

Villanova
Towson
Richmond
William & Mary

edit: I see you say Patriot league if they get scholarships.

CAA FCS
Maine
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Hofstra
Villanova
Towson
Richmond
William & Mary

I don't think that falls apart as a football league. It still has some prestige to it with Richmond, Nova, and UNH.

If the Patriot adds scholarships, Fordham will stay there for football. If not, then yes, I'd pencil them in for a new Northern FCS conference.

I honestly don't see that 9 member FCS conference staying together, particularly if the Patriot League allows scholarships. There just isn't much affinity between the smaller New England state schools and the prestigious academic schools in the South. At one time Villanova and Richmond were considering leaving the current CAA conference for the Patriot without scholarships, so I think a greatly watered down CAA vs. a scholarship-fortified Patriot League has to shift the balance in favor of the latter. And only 4 of the 9 members are full CAA members, so there just isn't much loyalty there. Finally, if the CAA is running the FBS conference, that's what they'll want to brand themselves as, whereas they'll want to distance themselves from the FCS conference to avoid confusion. I don't think they'd fight very hard to keep it together if there's so many easy alternative conferences for the FCS members to join (excluding Towson).

I see your point and it makes sense. Richmond and W&M have been in the same football league with the New England schools for at least fifteen years so there's some history. Kind of funny because those Virginia schools played in the Yankee Conference back in the day.

What would the odds of Northeastern getting into the A10 be if UMass took off?

Or Siena?