http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion...r_dummies/

The screwy thing in this story is bail. Can't speak for Massachusetts law, but Texas and everywhere else I'm familiar with generally sets bail at a level that is intended to insure appearance in court. If the defendant is a flight risk, bail is set accordingly. That's why Robert Allen Stanford is still wearing orange.

One of the things typically considered in setting bail is "ties to the community" - does the defendant have a job here, does he own property, etc. I would think most Mexican or Guatemalan nationals, whether legally in the US or not, would rate low on "ties to the community" and high on flight risk. If Massachusetts refuses to recognize those factors, they're just stupid.

Of course, if we're talking about traffic ticket level offenses, it's a different story. No one posts bond on those, so those guys would fall through the cracks regardless.

Almost sounds to me like they have decided that it is cheaper to deport them than incarcerate them and this is the way to get to that result.

According to another source, a passenger in the illegal's car was seriously injured. Guess Mass taxpayers will pick up those costs too. But I think bail on an injury DWI collision would not be insignificant, and I also doubt that any competent bail bondsman would cover it. Maybe the judge can't consider his status but the bondsman can. Maybe he's not as smart as he thinks.

I didn't think about it when I made the original post, but I had a similar experience.

A few years back I had a man back into my car at high speed in a Jack-in-the-Box drive-thru. It came so fast I thought he had held up the place and had the car in the wrong gear when he tried his getaway. Fast enough that his truck came over my hood and nearly made it to the passenger compartment, and far enough that the two cars were entangled and had to be pulled apart. Turned out the clunker had leaked all its transmission fluid and dropped into the wrong gear. The cops came, gave him tickets for failure to control, no DL, and no insurance, and let him go on his signature promising to appear. Someone at the scene - maybe the cop, maybe someone else, I can't remember now - made the comment as he drove away that those tickets would hit the pavement in the next two blocks. Sure enough, when my insurance company tried to find him, it turned out the name (Juan Garcia) was fictitious as was the address. I was out the deductible on the uninsured motorist ($500) and the insurance company and its shareholders out the rest. Not sure if an Arizona type law would have made a difference - he HAD to wait until the cops came as his car was tangled with mine and then it wouldn't restart for a while - but it might have made a difference to the next guy in the way of him and his clunker. Had I been just a little farther back, so that he could have built up more speed before hitting me, I could have been badly hurt or killed. (Big Station Wagon on top of 95 Integra). As it was, it did about $4000+ damage.

Article sets up a false premise - sanctuary/open borders v. enforcement.

The tragedy of the AZ law is similar.

For every example the author gives re an "illegal" doing something criminal, one can pt out members of the same population making a positive contributions.

Or if you want hyperbole, I can give you example after example of those "illegals" being ripped off by employers, beaten up, and raped by US citizens.

We need a rational immigration and guest worker policy, plus enforcement.

H1 visa reform would be a place to begin.

What we don't want to do is send 10 million back to Mexico. Think it through.

Mexico can barely keep a lid on things now. How long before they're looking at anarchy?
So then we have an anarchy on our southern border, with 10 million who are angry at us for expelling them.
Now, given the current state of world affairs, how long before some terrorist organization makes contact with angry expelled aliens?
And how long after that before somebody lobs a SCUD into downtown Phoenix, or LA, or San Antonio?

Think about it. That's a seriously real scenario. And not one we want.

No matter how bad the problem, the national security issues are easier to control with them here than there. Same for the economic issues. Think it through.

If Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it might be a different story. But if Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it would have a stable society that they wouldn't have needed to leave in the first place.

(05-29-2010 03:54 PM)ausowl Wrote:  Article sets up a false premise - sanctuary/open borders v. enforcement.

The tragedy of the AZ law is similar.

For every example the author gives re an "illegal" doing something criminal, one can pt out members of the same population making a positive contributions.

Or if you want hyperbole, I can give you example after example of those "illegals" being ripped off by employers, beaten up, and raped by US citizens.

We need a rational immigration and guest worker policy, plus enforcement.

H1 visa reform would be a place to begin.

I think maybe you are setting up a false premise. For example, for every example of a redhead doing something illegal, one can point out other redheads making positive contributions.

Has nothing to do with immigration - or legal - status.

Legal workers, US citizens, face beatings, rape, and rip-offs at the hands of US citizens. Some face them at the hands on nonUS citizens. Proves?

I have known illegals all my life. Some have been friends. Many, most of them are fine people. I sold a house to one once - he spoke no english, had no credit, barely had a down payment ($400), and had only a recommendation from his employer of the past 16 years. I owner financed it for him because I respected his sincerity and work ethic. I wonder how many of the liberals out there would do the same? My guess is zero. FTR, he made his payments faithfully until he developed cancer, at which time his children paid off the balance. But that doesn't mean it is wise to treat every illegal as a paragon of virtue. I am not going to finance a house for every illegal just because I had a good experience with one. How do you know the good from the bad? At least Enrique had a driver's license.


I agree we need a more rational immigration and guest worker policy, particular agree that it needs to be enforced. Most of the opposition is against enforcement of our current laws, not the rationality of them. Is that going to go away?

Owl 69 makes some good points. Most of my family on the border will no longer cross the river if they can help it. (Some have to - either they live in Mexico or they have family in Mexico). I found a job for my cousin, who had lost his job in the oil field, but it would have involved travel into the interior of Mexico. They wanted someone bilingual, who understood the customs and way of things there. He was perfect. His wife would not let him take the job. They live 2 miles north of the border. If the people 3 miles south of them that are so scary cross over and move north, do they automatically become wonderful people who just want a better life for their kids? No. No need to stereoptype them either for worse OR better.

Optimistic Owl: I agree with 99% of your post. Reacting to the posted article which I read to rely on some redheads doing bad things as policy argument.

On the 1%: zero liberals? really?

(05-29-2010 04:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What we don't want to do is send 10 million back to Mexico. Think it through.

Mexico can barely keep a lid on things now. How long before they're looking at anarchy?
So then we have an anarchy on our southern border, with 10 million who are angry at us for expelling them.
Now, given the current state of world affairs, how long before some terrorist organization makes contact with angry expelled aliens?
And how long after that before somebody lobs a SCUD into downtown Phoenix, or LA, or San Antonio?

Think about it. That's a seriously real scenario. And not one we want.

No matter how bad the problem, the national security issues are easier to control with them here than there. Same for the economic issues. Think it through.

If Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it might be a different story. But if Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it would have a stable society that they wouldn't have needed to leave in the first place.

I think its just a matter of time before Mexico falls apart- even if we didn't deport the illegals back to Mexico.

And once it reeally states getting nasty within the interior, you will have another wave of Mexicans coming across the border- this time with legit claims of being a refugee or seeking asylum.

I also don't think its a coincidence that there is a move to build an interstate highway extension from Fort Bliss east to Fort Benning, through Fort Hood, Fort Polk, etc.

Let me ask a question.

Which is a bigger threat to our national security--Mexico falling apart or an unfriendly government in Iraq or Afghanistan or Iran or North Korea?

(05-30-2010 10:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Let me ask a question.

Which is a bigger threat to our national security--Mexico falling apart or an unfriendly government in Iraq or Afghanistan or Iran or North Korea?

I'd rank it:

1. Iran. Ahmadinejad wants a nuke. He believes in the Hidden Imam crap, and the Israelis are getting ready to hit him.

2. Mexico. Anarchy across an unsecured border.

3. Afghanistan-Pakistan. AQ still a threat, but Special Operations can counter them.

4. North Korea. KLI is just as nutty as Ahmadinejad, but he is a regional threat AT THIS TIME.

(05-29-2010 08:35 PM)ausowl Wrote:  Optimistic Owl: I agree with 99% of your post. Reacting to the posted article which I read to rely on some redheads doing bad things as policy argument.

On the 1%: zero liberals? really?

Well, there seems to always be a bad apple in every barrel. Nothing against apples, of course. Or redheads. heck, I was married to one. Redhead, not apple.

I doubt you could find even one other person, liberal or conservative, who would owner-finance a house for an illegal alien with no credit, no bank account, no english, a tiny down payment, and only a personal recommendation from an employer. I did, so so far it is conservatives one, liberals zero. I am open to hearing of others.

FWIW, I did the same thing with the house next door, the main difference being that the buyer of that house was an Anglo-American. He also paid me every penny, and they each thought they had a great neighbor.

I have been cheated before, trusting people, but I would rather be a truster who loses a few dollars than a suspicious miser who makes a sharp deal every time.

(05-30-2010 10:44 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2010 04:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What we don't want to do is send 10 million back to Mexico. Think it through.

Mexico can barely keep a lid on things now. How long before they're looking at anarchy?
So then we have an anarchy on our southern border, with 10 million who are angry at us for expelling them.
Now, given the current state of world affairs, how long before some terrorist organization makes contact with angry expelled aliens?
And how long after that before somebody lobs a SCUD into downtown Phoenix, or LA, or San Antonio?

Think about it. That's a seriously real scenario. And not one we want.

No matter how bad the problem, the national security issues are easier to control with them here than there. Same for the economic issues. Think it through.

If Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it might be a different story. But if Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it would have a stable society that they wouldn't have needed to leave in the first place.

I think its just a matter of time before Mexico falls apart- even if we didn't deport the illegals back to Mexico.

And once it reeally states getting nasty within the interior, you will have another wave of Mexicans coming across the border- this time with legit claims of being a refugee or seeking asylum.

I also don't think its a coincidence that there is a move to build an interstate highway extension from Fort Bliss east to Fort Benning, through Fort Hood, Fort Polk, etc.

What do you think we should be doing now?

What do you think we should do when mexico falls apart, if indeed it does? Should we do the border patrols, fences, and strict enforcement that many want now? Let everyone in who wants in?

I spent 28 years running a business that imported various mexican products. I must have made 300-400 trips to mexico in that time, none of them to tourist destinations - small towns in the mountains or desert, mostly. One place I did business with had a phone number of 2. That's a small town. I loved my visits to mexico, the people I met, the places I saw, the experiences I had, but I would be scared now to go back to the same places as 15 years ago. When my cousins are afraid, that tells me all I need to know. They are right there, they know what is going on. I remember a simpler time, when my mother and grandmother would take us across the river weekly to shop. Things change.

(05-30-2010 07:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-30-2010 10:44 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2010 04:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What we don't want to do is send 10 million back to Mexico. Think it through.

Mexico can barely keep a lid on things now. How long before they're looking at anarchy?
So then we have an anarchy on our southern border, with 10 million who are angry at us for expelling them.
Now, given the current state of world affairs, how long before some terrorist organization makes contact with angry expelled aliens?
And how long after that before somebody lobs a SCUD into downtown Phoenix, or LA, or San Antonio?

Think about it. That's a seriously real scenario. And not one we want.

No matter how bad the problem, the national security issues are easier to control with them here than there. Same for the economic issues. Think it through.

If Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it might be a different story. But if Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it would have a stable society that they wouldn't have needed to leave in the first place.

I think its just a matter of time before Mexico falls apart- even if we didn't deport the illegals back to Mexico.

And once it reeally states getting nasty within the interior, you will have another wave of Mexicans coming across the border- this time with legit claims of being a refugee or seeking asylum.

I also don't think its a coincidence that there is a move to build an interstate highway extension from Fort Bliss east to Fort Benning, through Fort Hood, Fort Polk, etc.

What do you think we should be doing now?

What do you think we should do when mexico falls apart, if indeed it does? Should we do the border patrols, fences, and strict enforcement that many want now? Let everyone in who wants in?

I spent 28 years running a business that imported various mexican products. I must have made 300-400 trips to mexico in that time, none of them to tourist destinations - small towns in the mountains or desert, mostly. One place I did business with had a phone number of 2. That's a small town. I loved my visits to mexico, the people I met, the places I saw, the experiences I had, but I would be scared now to go back to the same places as 15 years ago. When my cousins are afraid, that tells me all I need to know. They are right there, they know what is going on. I remember a simpler time, when my mother and grandmother would take us across the river weekly to shop. Things change.

As for "now" there are two things that we should have been doing yesterday, and that is on the "demand" side.

To stop the economic aspects of illegal immigration, you need to strictly enforce the laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal immigrants. The first time a couple of small business owners, say a roofing or landscaping contractor, gets sentenced to 24 months in a Federal Detention Center for hiring illegal immigrants, I promise you that anyone that doesn't have a verifiable Social Security Number will be "out of work" the next day.

As far as the drug smuggling, which is at the core of the Mexican violence, if there wasn't an American "demand" for the crap, there wouldn't be a problem in Mexico. For all of Obama's Health "reform" one thing that he left out was substance abuse treatment. You have to break the drug cycle some way. Decriminalizing possession of small amounts isn't the answer, because you still have addicts.

Of course, if you shut off the economic contribution of Mexicans in the US sending back money, you shut off a sizable part of the Mexican economy, causing domestic unrest.

But you know the internal situation better than anyone posting in here. Is there any way you can realistically purge corruption from the Mexican government? Half the Mexican government is fighting the cartels, and the other half is being paid by the cartels.

The worst thing that could happen is if there is a terrorist attack in the US and its discovered that the terrorists crossed illegally into the US from Mexico. That will cause a backlash and cause the problem to escalate out of control.

(05-31-2010 07:20 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(05-30-2010 07:22 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-30-2010 10:44 AM)WMD Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2010 04:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What we don't want to do is send 10 million back to Mexico. Think it through.

Mexico can barely keep a lid on things now. How long before they're looking at anarchy?
So then we have an anarchy on our southern border, with 10 million who are angry at us for expelling them.
Now, given the current state of world affairs, how long before some terrorist organization makes contact with angry expelled aliens?
And how long after that before somebody lobs a SCUD into downtown Phoenix, or LA, or San Antonio?

Think about it. That's a seriously real scenario. And not one we want.

No matter how bad the problem, the national security issues are easier to control with them here than there. Same for the economic issues. Think it through.

If Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it might be a different story. But if Mexico had a stable society that could absorb them, it would have a stable society that they wouldn't have needed to leave in the first place.

I think its just a matter of time before Mexico falls apart- even if we didn't deport the illegals back to Mexico.

And once it reeally states getting nasty within the interior, you will have another wave of Mexicans coming across the border- this time with legit claims of being a refugee or seeking asylum.

I also don't think its a coincidence that there is a move to build an interstate highway extension from Fort Bliss east to Fort Benning, through Fort Hood, Fort Polk, etc.

What do you think we should be doing now?

What do you think we should do when mexico falls apart, if indeed it does? Should we do the border patrols, fences, and strict enforcement that many want now? Let everyone in who wants in?

I spent 28 years running a business that imported various mexican products. I must have made 300-400 trips to mexico in that time, none of them to tourist destinations - small towns in the mountains or desert, mostly. One place I did business with had a phone number of 2. That's a small town. I loved my visits to mexico, the people I met, the places I saw, the experiences I had, but I would be scared now to go back to the same places as 15 years ago. When my cousins are afraid, that tells me all I need to know. They are right there, they know what is going on. I remember a simpler time, when my mother and grandmother would take us across the river weekly to shop. Things change.

As for "now" there are two things that we should have been doing yesterday, and that is on the "demand" side.

To stop the economic aspects of illegal immigration, you need to strictly enforce the laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal immigrants. The first time a couple of small business owners, say a roofing or landscaping contractor, gets sentenced to 24 months in a Federal Detention Center for hiring illegal immigrants, I promise you that anyone that doesn't have a verifiable Social Security Number will be "out of work" the next day.

As far as the drug smuggling, which is at the core of the Mexican violence, if there wasn't an American "demand" for the crap, there wouldn't be a problem in Mexico. For all of Obama's Health "reform" one thing that he left out was substance abuse treatment. You have to break the drug cycle some way. Decriminalizing possession of small amounts isn't the answer, because you still have addicts.

Of course, if you shut off the economic contribution of Mexicans in the US sending back money, you shut off a sizable part of the Mexican economy, causing domestic unrest.

But you know the internal situation better than anyone posting in here. Is there any way you can realistically purge corruption from the Mexican government? Half the Mexican government is fighting the cartels, and the other half is being paid by the cartels.

The worst thing that could happen is if there is a terrorist attack in the US and its discovered that the terrorists crossed illegally into the US from Mexico. That will cause a backlash and cause the problem to escalate out of control.

I think the employers could be handled with fines, no need to send people to prison. maybe for a third offense.

As for the drug smuggling, we have have been trying unsuccessfully for many decades to reduce/control the demand, with little success. I wood decrimilize marijuana, but not the harder drugs. But crime pays, and pays well, and I don't know what we can do about that.

I would not shut off the transfer of $$$ to family memebers. What i would do is develop a guest worker system. Issue permits to mexicans who qualify. How do you qualify? First you have to come through Immigration legally, you have to register and get a SSN, you have to file tax returns while you are here to maintain the GW status. I think something like this is set up, but largely ignored by the powers that be. It needs to be expanded and enforced. A GW should have a maximum of 5 years, after which he needs to either be applying for US citizenship, Resident alien status, or heading home. For illegals currently in the US, they would have a 90 day period to apply for a legal status - Resident Akien, GW, student visa, whatever - and at the end those that don't get right with the law get deported. A fair chance to set things right, not taken, loses them the benefit of the doubt. lastly, for those trying to enter illegally from now on, enforce the laws.

I doubt I am the best authority here. If so, we are woefully lacking in knowledge. It has been 15 years since I was actively invovled in Mexico. My opinion is that corruprtion is deeply embedded in the government, but there are many honest officals and policemen. These are the ones dying in the streets. I honestly can't blame a lot of the officials. Given a choice between handfuls of money and death for you and maybe your family, which would you choose? Big carrot, bigger stick. The corrupt ones seek office so that they can get payoffs,, sometimes buying their positions. Also, there is corruption of different kinds. I never had to pay off a top government official, but minor functionaries often expect a "tip", without which your life gets more complicated.

I have been expecting a terrorist attack from people smuggled in through the southern border, maybe using materials smuggled in via the same paths. So far, Thank God, it hasn't happened. If it ever does, there will be a change of attitude. Until then, we just have to worry about what might be, what might happen.

BTW, I had to have my "papers" with me when I was in Mexico. OTOH, I never had to show them.