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ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #41
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 11:33 AM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Please Big East don't succomb to early negotiations with ESPN just to go back to Wednesday, Friday, and ESPN U Saturday games. Shop this thing around and be open minded to Comcast, Turner ideas.

As for those in the conference wanting to accelerate negotiations I suspect thats most of the basketball schools and the budget suffering football schools. Sorry, but those running fiscally positive programs need to be able to pull the restraints on them, in order to maximize the deal and the timeslots.

There's value in reducing uncertainty. What we see right now is a current boom in TV sports rights across the board. Is that going to be the same in 2 or 3 years when the Big East would have the opportunity to go to the open market? Conversely, is ESPN willing to take the risk that sports rights will rise even further by that point?

It's not necessarily a no-brainer for the Big East to wait - there's a feeding frenzy right now for sports rights that may or not be there in a couple of years. While I'd personally still take the risk of waiting for a couple of years to see what the conference can get in the open market, there's at least an argument to lock it in now with Fox throwing money around and Comcast trying to prove itself in the wake of the NBC acquisition. Timing can be every bit as important as the product itself.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 01:14 PM by Frank the Tank.)
04-18-2011 01:14 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #42
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:14 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:49 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:39 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:24 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  At minimal, BE should be shooting for ACC level numbers on all fronts including TV coverage.

I agree. There's no harm in asking or trying to negotiate something. Of course we might not get it, but, we surely won't if we don't stake out that position ...

I seriously think BE needs to go to another company is ESPN does not agree to our terms. ESPN has openly promoted conferences that have big deals with them in SEC and B11 to the determent of the BE. BE better not settle for this crappy ass 2nd class citizen status as some posters think we are. UCONN just won our 3rd national championship. If there is a better basketball conference out there I like to know. Some people are smoking weed if they think UNC/DUKE basketball is worth more than all the storied programs in the BE.

I'm sorry but its proven that we still don't get to the same level as they do....we don't like it, but thats the facts.

I personally don't think that UNC/Duke is worth more than *all* of the BE programs, but they're also worth WAAAAAAY more than what a lot of people here give them credit for.

I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage. That's why Notre Dame still has a great NBC contract. That's why Texas still signed up a massive ESPN deal in the wake of a losing football season. And that's why the ACC gets a whole lot more TV revenue than what their on-the-field and court records indicate.

(We'll see how many posts it takes before the last paragraph is ignored once again with proclamations that the ACC isn't as good in basketball or football, which may be true but is largely irrelevant for this discussion.)
04-18-2011 01:22 PM
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dgrace4cards Offline
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Post: #43
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:14 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 11:33 AM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Please Big East don't succomb to early negotiations with ESPN just to go back to Wednesday, Friday, and ESPN U Saturday games. Shop this thing around and be open minded to Comcast, Turner ideas.

As for those in the conference wanting to accelerate negotiations I suspect thats most of the basketball schools and the budget suffering football schools. Sorry, but those running fiscally positive programs need to be able to pull the restraints on them, in order to maximize the deal and the timeslots.

There's value in reducing uncertainty. What we see right now is a current boom in TV sports rights across the board. Is that going to be the same in 2 or 3 years when the Big East would have the opportunity to go to the open market? Conversely, is ESPN willing to take the risk that sports rights will rise even further by that point?

It's not necessarily a no-brainer for the Big East to wait - there's a feeding frenzy right now for sports rights that may or not be there in a couple of years. While I'd personally still take the risk of waiting for a couple of years to see what the conference can get in the open market, there's at least an argument to lock it in now with Fox throwing money around and Comcast trying to prove itself in the wake of the NBC acquisition. Timing can be every bit as important as the product itself.

I just can't agree with the part of signing up now. Its not 2 or 3 years from now, the Big East would go to the open market starting this summer (if they haven't already) and a year from now they would begin to finalize their deal. The Big East is still a BCS conference with major basketball......ESPN will not move on to the MAC to take our spot thats for sure. Its kinda like ESPN becomes our expansion candidates that will be there when we are ready to talk exclusively. I' quiet confident in them not signing up somebody else for Big Monday in basketball and filling their Wed and Fridays with Mac over us. If ESPN doesn't offer money and timeslots to our liking, then you move on to the open market. We both know they will still sign us up next summer/fall at the deal they are offering now.
04-18-2011 01:30 PM
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Post: #44
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage.

Would you mind listing those schools?

So far we have:

Notre Dame football
Texas football
Duke basketball
04-18-2011 01:32 PM
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dgrace4cards Offline
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Post: #45
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:14 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:49 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:39 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 12:24 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  At minimal, BE should be shooting for ACC level numbers on all fronts including TV coverage.

I agree. There's no harm in asking or trying to negotiate something. Of course we might not get it, but, we surely won't if we don't stake out that position ...

I seriously think BE needs to go to another company is ESPN does not agree to our terms. ESPN has openly promoted conferences that have big deals with them in SEC and B11 to the determent of the BE. BE better not settle for this crappy ass 2nd class citizen status as some posters think we are. UCONN just won our 3rd national championship. If there is a better basketball conference out there I like to know. Some people are smoking weed if they think UNC/DUKE basketball is worth more than all the storied programs in the BE.

I'm sorry but its proven that we still don't get to the same level as they do....we don't like it, but thats the facts.

I personally don't think that UNC/Duke is worth more than *all* of the BE programs, but they're also worth WAAAAAAY more than what a lot of people here give them credit for.

I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage. That's why Notre Dame still has a great NBC contract. That's why Texas still signed up a massive ESPN deal in the wake of a losing football season. And that's why the ACC gets a whole lot more TV revenue than what their on-the-field and court records indicate.

(We'll see how many posts it takes before the last paragraph is ignored once again with proclamations that the ACC isn't as good in basketball or football, which may be true but is largely irrelevant for this discussion.)

Exactly. If they maintain common fan audience when losing then they have pull. We have a mass of programs that do well but none are in the top 5 in market pull. Duke gets alot of their audience by most of us watching to pull for the other team to pound them into the ground, to shut up the very program showing their games. While a program like UConn is great on the court they don't command the audience, and neither do we....tough to swallow but its true.
04-18-2011 01:36 PM
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SF Husky Offline
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Post: #46
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:30 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:14 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 11:33 AM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Please Big East don't succomb to early negotiations with ESPN just to go back to Wednesday, Friday, and ESPN U Saturday games. Shop this thing around and be open minded to Comcast, Turner ideas.

As for those in the conference wanting to accelerate negotiations I suspect thats most of the basketball schools and the budget suffering football schools. Sorry, but those running fiscally positive programs need to be able to pull the restraints on them, in order to maximize the deal and the timeslots.

There's value in reducing uncertainty. What we see right now is a current boom in TV sports rights across the board. Is that going to be the same in 2 or 3 years when the Big East would have the opportunity to go to the open market? Conversely, is ESPN willing to take the risk that sports rights will rise even further by that point?

It's not necessarily a no-brainer for the Big East to wait - there's a feeding frenzy right now for sports rights that may or not be there in a couple of years. While I'd personally still take the risk of waiting for a couple of years to see what the conference can get in the open market, there's at least an argument to lock it in now with Fox throwing money around and Comcast trying to prove itself in the wake of the NBC acquisition. Timing can be every bit as important as the product itself.

I just can't agree with the part of signing up now. Its not 2 or 3 years from now, the Big East would go to the open market starting this summer (if they haven't already) and a year from now they would begin to finalize their deal. The Big East is still a BCS conference with major basketball......ESPN will not move on to the MAC to take our spot thats for sure. Its kinda like ESPN becomes our expansion candidates that will be there when we are ready to talk exclusively. I' quiet confident in them not signing up somebody else for Big Monday in basketball and filling their Wed and Fridays with Mac over us. If ESPN doesn't offer money and timeslots to our liking, then you move on to the open market. We both know they will still sign us up next summer/fall at the deal they are offering now.

What BE should do is get assurance from FOX and COMCAST that they will be there to bid if BE goes to the open market. They can do this via indirect channel without violating ESPN's exclusive negotiation window. This should give BE confidence that no matter what kind of crap ESPN decides to dish out, BE won't get screwed. It is time to put up or shut up for ESPN. The days of robbing the BE dry is over for those SEC/B11 homers.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 01:37 PM by SF Husky.)
04-18-2011 01:37 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #47
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:32 PM)KnightTower Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage.

Would you mind listing those schools?

So far we have:

Notre Dame football
Texas football
Duke basketball

FOOTBALL
Notre Dame
Texas
Oklahoma
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
Florida
Alabama
USC
Miami
Florida State

LSU and Tennessee are also in that conversation.

BASKETBALL
UNC
Duke
Kentucky
Kansas
UCLA
Indiana

Let me emphasize that I don't believe that those are the *best* 5 basketball programs today (as I'm sure I'll get a lot of "Where's Syracuse and UConn?!" comments), but they have decades of fan base support and tradition where they are the "Big 5" for TV purposes.
04-18-2011 01:39 PM
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dgrace4cards Offline
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Post: #48
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:32 PM)KnightTower Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage.

Would you mind listing those schools?

So far we have:

Notre Dame football
Texas football
Duke basketball

Many of the SEC football programs in the hunt "that year"...and many of the same traditionally elite programs that ESPN still shoves down our throat, because they know people crave for it, like Kansas and Kentucky basketball, Miami, FSU, Michigan and Ohio State football and a few others in football.
04-18-2011 01:40 PM
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Post: #49
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
One bit of info here not mentioned yet, is if ESPN has an exclusive window with Big East before it can go to open market, then maybe 1 or the other offered up to start the window to get a sense as to where they are with each other. Both sides could benefit with this taking place early, but I still maintain that ESPN will reserve a place at their table in primetime for basketball and at least on ESPN 900U for football if we go back to them after open market shopping.
04-18-2011 01:45 PM
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Post: #50
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
03-idea ESPN will give the Big East BCS football schools more money per school, if they split for both basketball and football. The real losers in the split would be Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, DePaul and Marquette unless they could merge with the A10. There is just so much money and time slots out there. 05-stirthepot
04-18-2011 01:45 PM
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Post: #51
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:32 PM)KnightTower Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I keep pounding this point regarding TV sports rights: the true TV value of a school is how many people still pay attention when they're *terrible*, NOT when they're winning. Anyone will watch a national title contender no matter where they're from. The "special" schools are the ones that still get national TV coverage when they have a .250 winning percentage.

Would you mind listing those schools?

So far we have:

Notre Dame football
Texas football
Duke basketball

FOOTBALL
Notre Dame
Texas
Oklahoma
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
Florida
Alabama
USC
Miami
Florida State

LSU and Tennessee are also in that conversation.

BASKETBALL
UNC
Duke
Kentucky
Kansas
UCLA
Indiana

Let me emphasize that I don't believe that those are the *best* 5 basketball programs today (as I'm sure I'll get a lot of "Where's Syracuse and UConn?!" comments), but they have decades of fan base support and tradition where they are the "Big 5" for TV purposes.

I don't know how old you are Frank, but those schools are for old foggies especially basketball ones. People watch when programs are good. I wouldn't be there watching some 12-9 Indiana playing. I could careless about what's in front of their jersey. Same for football. Sure those SEC lunatics down in South care but people in CA and Northeast don't. Trust me, no one here cares about Michigan when they suck outside Michigan alums.

New generation of kids surely will look at UCONN greater than UCLA or Indiana for example. I don't even know why I am even debating this crap. Indiana? Are you serious? I have not seen them play for like 2 years I don't even care. They last time I watched them was when UCONN rolled them at Assembly Hall.

I wish to see what level of TV audience Indiana commands this year vs. other programs. I don't have the data but I bet their numbers aren't much higher than Purdue or West Virginia.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 01:56 PM by SF Husky.)
04-18-2011 01:47 PM
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Post: #52
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:30 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  I just can't agree with the part of signing up now. Its not 2 or 3 years from now, the Big East would go to the open market starting this summer (if they haven't already) and a year from now they would begin to finalize their deal.

Not quite. ESPN can start renegotiating at any time, but the window for the Big East to shop on th eopen market, with basketball and football, is indeed at least 2 years away.

(04-18-2011 01:37 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  What BE should do is get assurance from FOX and COMCAST that they will be there to bid if BE goes to the open market.

Easier said than done. You can't really get an "assurance," when it has to be thru unofficial channels. They can always change their minds.
04-18-2011 01:50 PM
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Post: #53
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
Husky, I'm in my mid 30's and still feel in tune with the youth......thats not what matters. The youth are playing video games.....the adults and the common fan of all ages are tuned into those very teams metioned above. If not, ESPN would be showing others much more. UL is a top shelf program, but we don't get much time on the air because our following is limited to many of the other top 10 traditional programs. Michigan football has sucked for a while but still get pull because of their longstanding pull.

Unfornately, a program like yours, while great on the court and lately on the field will still not travel to far distances for FF's and BCS games, nor has a large tv following exclusively...that plays into it a bit as well. I understand what you're saying about who the youth relate to, but thats not what is driving tv ratings.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 01:54 PM by dgrace4cards.)
04-18-2011 01:54 PM
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Post: #54
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:47 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  I don't know how old you are Frank, but those schools are for old foggies especially basketball ones.

New generation of kids surely will look at UCONN greater than UCLA or Indiana for example. I don't even know why I am even debating this crap. Indiana? Are you serious? I have not seen them play for like 2 years I don't even care. They last time I watched them was when UCONN rolled them at Assembly Hall.


Husky, his list is on the money. Indiana is coming off the trainwresck that is Kelvin Sampson, has had one of the worst three year stretches in school history, and still averaged 30% more fans than UConn, and finished number 11 in attendance. I can tell you from living close to Indiana, even as down as they are, they are still big time. And no, no one looks at Uconn as greater than UCLA.
04-18-2011 01:54 PM
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Post: #55
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:50 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:30 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  I just can't agree with the part of signing up now. Its not 2 or 3 years from now, the Big East would go to the open market starting this summer (if they haven't already) and a year from now they would begin to finalize their deal.

Not quite. ESPN can start renegotiating at any time, but the window for the Big East to shop on th eopen market, with basketball and football, is indeed at least 2 years away.

(04-18-2011 01:37 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  What BE should do is get assurance from FOX and COMCAST that they will be there to bid if BE goes to the open market.

Easier said than done. You can't really get an "assurance," when it has to be thru unofficial channels. They can always change their minds.

You're telling me that within months of a new tv contract needing to be signed is when they can legally shop the market. That seems like way to short of a window to just be starting to dance with a new partner. I have to think they get close to a year on the open market.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 01:57 PM by dgrace4cards.)
04-18-2011 01:56 PM
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Post: #56
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:45 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  03-idea ESPN will give the Big East BCS football schools more money per school, if they split for both basketball and football.

You say this a lot, but never give any reason. how on earth does losing the two most valuable commodies in the Big East make them more valuable?
04-18-2011 01:57 PM
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Post: #57
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:56 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  You're telling me that within months of a new tv contract needing to be signed is when they can legally shop the market. That seems like way to short of a window to just be starting to dance with a new partner. I have to think they get close to a year on the open market.


No, the Basketball contract has an extra year on it; that is the problem. The football contract ends in 2013 I believe, and basketball in 2014, with the negotiating window generally started one year before that. The above talks are referring to starting the renegotaiton window earlier than normal (which allows only ESPN to negotiate), which would be 2012 for football, and 2013 for basketball. However, if you want to shop both together, you have to wait until you can legally shop basketball too. It was a nifty little thing ESPN put in there.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 02:12 PM by adcorbett.)
04-18-2011 02:01 PM
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Post: #58
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 02:01 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:56 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  You're telling me that within months of a new tv contract needing to be signed is when they can legally shop the market. That seems like way to short of a window to just be starting to dance with a new partner. I have to think they get close to a year on the open market.


No, the Basketball contract has an extra year on it; that is the problem. The football contract ends in 2013 I believe, and basketball in 2014, with the negotiating window generally started one year before that. The above talks are referring to startin the renegotaiton window earlier (which allows only ESPN to negotiate) than normal, which would be 2012 for football, and 2013 for basketball. However, if you want to shop both together, you have to wait until you can legally shop basketball too. It was a nifty little thing ESPN put in there.

Ahah....good point, and nice strategy indeed by those prickelly thorns. Oh well, we don't want to be the next C-USA I'm sure.
04-18-2011 02:04 PM
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Post: #59
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 01:54 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(04-18-2011 01:47 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  I don't know how old you are Frank, but those schools are for old foggies especially basketball ones.

New generation of kids surely will look at UCONN greater than UCLA or Indiana for example. I don't even know why I am even debating this crap. Indiana? Are you serious? I have not seen them play for like 2 years I don't even care. They last time I watched them was when UCONN rolled them at Assembly Hall.


Husky, his list is on the money. Indiana is coming off the trainwresck that is Kelvin Sampson, has had one of the worst three year stretches in school history, and still averaged 30% more fans than UConn, and finished number 11 in attendance. I can tell you from living close to Indiana, even as down as they are, they are still big time. And no, no one looks at Uconn as greater than UCLA.

Well considering Indiana got a much bigger place to play of course their attendance is higher. If UCONN charges students reasonably and we have a 20K on campus facility, we would sell that out easily with amount of student demand.

It is just not winning streak, we got multiple NBA players in the league a program like Indiana can't touch. There are fans outside the midwest you know.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 02:06 PM by SF Husky.)
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Post: #60
RE: ESPN, Big East talking extension per Sports Business Journal
(04-18-2011 02:04 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  It is just not winning streak, we got multiple NBA players in the league a program like Indiana can't touch. There are fans outside the midwest you know.

Indiana has had more NBA players than Uconn. They also have more titles.

This isn't something that Frank just made up, there is a Big Six in college basketball, and it will not be changing anytime soon. No matter how down those six programs get (and Indiana, UCL, and Kentucky have had periods of being down), they are still considered head and shoulders above the rest. Just because one happens to be down at the current moment, doesn't mean anything. And as strange as it sounds, Indiana was just a top ten team three years ago, when Uconn was in the NIT. They just had an unusual situation occur with Sampson. And if you took a snapshot at that time, you might have found Uconn ranked behind Georgetown or Villanova in the pecking order, and that would be equally as unfair.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2011 02:11 PM by adcorbett.)
04-18-2011 02:08 PM
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