This might be a reason UCF is picked over ECU......<a href='http://www.mwcboard.com/www/forums/index.php?showtopic=274' target='_blank'>Travel Costs Going Up in MWC</a>

Doooooooooomed!

Hail TexanMark,

This assumes either as a 'football only' for the 16-team confederation or as a one-team expansion for a 9-team BABE.

I suspect that you are correct and that UCF in a one-team expansion will probably win out, but if it isn't done soon as the football only option for the 16-team federation a lot can happen between now and the next round of expansions.

In the meantime if Army and Navy recruiting restrictions loosen up to the point where they feel they can compete with other Big East teams and USF turns out to be a dud, don't be too surprised to see a 9-team BABE that dumps USF and adds Army and Navy.

Cheers,
Neil

People wonder why UC and Louisville wanted into the Big East so badly. For a number of reasons, but the main reasons, especially UC, wanted in for geographical reasons. It cuts down big time on travel expenses, and in UC's cases allows fans to travel better hopefully improving the fan base.

That's true C_C, it the past UC only had UL as its geographic rival in conference. Memphis was the second closest and even that's like 7-8hrs away. Starting next year, Pitt and WVU will provide a nice short drives for fans to travel along with the FB team. Add to that the annual rivalry game with Miami (OH) and UC will have at least 4 games every year that should draw well.

yipg Wrote:That's true C_C, it the past UC only had UL as its geographic rival in conference. Memphis was the second closest and even that's like 7-8hrs away. Starting next year, Pitt and WVU will provide a nice short drives for fans to travel along with the FB team. Add to that the annual rivalry game with Miami (OH) and UC will have at least 4 games every year that should draw well.

Exactly. And, I think it was mentioned, it's an easier commute to Syracuse because of the Cincinnati airport. I thought I had heard somewhere that one of the reasons that Syracuse liked having UC was because our airport makes their travel easier. I guess it's another geographically friendly stopping point with some many schools near us in the Big East.

Quote:In the meantime if Army and Navy recruiting restrictions loosen up to the point where they feel they can compete with other Big East teams and USF turns out to be a dud, don't be too surprised to see a 9-team BABE that dumps USF and adds Army and Navy.

-- Don't get me wrong...I would love to have Army and Navy with us in football...but wouldn't such a scenario only leave us with 7 all sports members? That is a pretty small hoops league


Jackson

Quote:-- Don't get me wrong...I would love to have Army and Navy with us in football...but wouldn't such a scenario only leave us with 7 all sports members? That is a pretty small hoops league


Jackson

You're right, I was only thinking football. My dream of a true northeastern league and my dislike for having USF thrust upon us got the better of me.

Cheers,
Neil

Let's see, traveling to North Carolina is more expensive than traveling to Orlando? I have also got the impression that USF would fight tooth & nail to keep out UCF. Am I missing something? You guys are a fickle bunch.

Omni, It seems to me that with all the schools in the northeast, there shouldn't be a problem to create a truly northeastern conference. I don't blame you for having such a desire. It's now apparent that you are not happy with the addition of USF. That's something you & L-Yes have in common. The difference between you & L-Yes is that you apparently don't want Louisville in the Big East, since Kentucky is definitely not a northeastern state. Do you consider West Virginia a northeastern state? What about Ohio? Just curious.

Brick City Pirate Wrote:Let's see, traveling to North Carolina is more expensive than traveling to Orlando? I have also got the impression that USF would fight tooth & nail to keep out UCF. Am I missing something? You guys are a fickle bunch.

You don't need a team of pack mules and an indian guide to find Orlando after you get off the plane.


Orlando is a short jaunt from Tampa. As the UC contingent was noting travel for us, even to Tampa is relatively inexpensive. Southwest Airlines offers round trip from Louisville for under 300 bucks.

Pirate, I think the reason UCF is seen to have an edge over ECU is only because of its proxemity to USF, thus creating a convenient travel partner for scheduling in all league play other than football. It certainly makes sense, especially since this thread was started with the discussion of MWC teams' increased travel expenses with the addition of TCU.

I do see your point about USF possibly not wanting UCF's competition to further dilute the recruiting base (Just as I would not want to see a Miami Ohio or Bowling Green gaining entrance to a BCS conference), but with all the talents Florida possess the state can certainly afford to have another BCS program. On the other hand, the same argument can be said for ECU's inclusion, as there're already several BCS programs established in the Carolinas.

I posted this on the CUSA board, too. but you guys are missing the point of the article.

Taking TCU out of the discussion, if you look closely the article its main point is about 9 team leagues and travel costs and scheduling implications for M/W basketball, volleyball and maybe a few other minor sports. The increased cost of odd numbered team conferences has to do with loss of the "travel partner" system for such sports and the resulting increased trips that have to be made for everybody to play each other. In that regard, the travel costs would have increased significantly no matter who was added. A nine team conference is great for football (4 home and 4 away round robin schedule) but hard on those sports mentioned above (and not as big of a deal for the tournament/meet sports like golf, track, swimming, etc). This is something for the BE to consider, should they split up and add a team to 9, as has been discussed. The distance to TCU is a factor, but unless a league adds a team that most can bus to, there isn't that much difference in plane travel costs.

Now for TCU, the biggest factor in increased travel costs in the MW is the travel distance, but for the others in the conference the increase is almost totally due to the odd number of teams.

Quote:Omni, It seems to me that with all the schools in the northeast, there shouldn't be a problem to create a truly northeastern conference. I don't blame you for having such a desire. It's now apparent that you are not happy with the addition of USF. That's something you & L-Yes have in common. The difference between you & L-Yes is that you apparently don't want Louisville in the Big East, since Kentucky is definitely not a northeastern state. Do you consider West Virginia a northeastern state? What about Ohio? Just curious.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Northeastern can be a state of mind regardless of location. Maryland is northeastern, but they consider themselves 'southern'. Louisville may be 'southern' in terms of geography but I get the feeling from Cards fans (and this was true even prior to the BE inviting them) that some of them see themselves as mid-westerners, partial northeasterners particularly true in terms of basketball if not in football. And even if ACC expansion never took place, the BE has had its eye on Louisville since 1999.

Miami was definitely a 'southern' school that had more in common with the northeast than they do the south. I didn't get that feeling from VT and I don't get that feeling from USF. I think both joined the BE as an act of desperation. Of course the BE's invite to USF was also an act of desperation with BC bolting. So it's definitely a marriage of convenience on both sides.

WVU has a long tradition of playing northeastern schools even prior to the formation of the Big East. I'm sure they view themselves as 'southern' and if they had their preference they, like Louisville, would prefer to be in the SEC - but in both cases I believe the BE is a close second for them - and its a meaningful close second.

Not sure what Cincinnati fans feel about being in what is suppose to be a northeastern conference, but at this point I have to think that Pitt-WVU-UL-UC will form quite a nice compact geographical rivalry base. As would have SU-BC-UConn-RU.

See why USF simply doesn't belong? I wish them well in the BE, but without a travel partner(s) they are an island that will sooner or later want to drift away.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:L-yes Posted on Apr 30 2005, 08:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE (Brick City Pirate @ Apr 30 2005, 07:45 AM)
Let's see, traveling to North Carolina is more expensive than traveling to Orlando? I have also got the impression that USF would fight tooth & nail to keep out UCF. Am I missing something? You guys are a fickle bunch.&nbsp;

You don't need a team of pack mules and an indian guide to find Orlando after you get off the plane.

:laugh:

That's the best one-liner I've read on these boards in days.

Cheers,
Neil

Quote:-- Don't get me wrong...I would love to have Army and Navy with us in football...but wouldn't such a scenario only leave us with 7 all sports members? That is a pretty small hoops league

If they had their recruiting limitations lifted, then they could be competitive in basketball as well and qualify as all sports members.

Omni, is this even a remote possibility? Are the Academies even trying to get these lifted, and if so, why aren't they successful?

Travel costs are really a non-factor for USF. We had to fly all our sports in C-USA, so nothing is really going to change. If anything, USF actually did a study that showed that travel costs would actually go down a little bit once we joined the BigEast just about all BE schools are close to a major airport.

Regarding UCF, what many people forget is that once USF learned it would be replacing BC it was lobbying for UCF to become BE number 9. This was documented in both the Orando and Tampa Bay area media. That is the irony about all the pent up hatred for USF by UCFers. It was a source of frustration for some USF fans b/c there is a long history of UCF's administration trying to get diminish USF football. That is, when USF was trying to get the State's approval for football there were some very candid and negative comments by UCF's football and academic administration about the potential of USF football. Similarly when UCF was among the early leaders for the BE they talked down USF's potential.

However, despite all the childishness from UCF, South Florida took the high road and opted to help them out when it had every reason to return serve and squash them when they were down. Today that same animosity exists. Recently UCF's admin has gone out of their way several times to take shots at USF. Many of their supporters view this as them having a chip on their shoulders, in reality it's just another example of the institutional wide insecurities they suffer from in Orlando and just plain and simple low class. If you doubt what I am saying, ask any MAC fan what I am talking about in reference to their players and behavior of visiting fans. Similarly ask West Virginia fans what they think of UCF.....

USF doesn't need UCF to survive. Furthermore, for all the talk about facilities nothing has really come out of the ground at UCF. To date it's just cleared fields and schematics. They still don't have financing in place for their new arena and the football stadium is running into regulatory pitfalls that can significantly delay the project. Building costs are going to continue to rise, so if they wait too long to move forward they may be priced out the market. UCF fans like to talk a lot about their facilities but the truth is that by the time they are all finished, USF will be well into finishing it's athletic village plan.

Quote:Similarly ask West Virginia fans what they think of UCF.....

I wonder just how much damage their backing out of our contract may have caused them when it comes to possible Big East inclusion...

While UCF would give USF a travel partner, Temple would provide a lot of short distances for most of the schools. Hartford is just 183 miles from Philly, Piscataway is 58, Pitt is 254, WVU is about the same, Syracuse is 221. It's a shame the Owls have no commitment to football. If they were taking the steps UCF is taking, I doubt they would have ever been kicked out.

Is 220-250 too far to drive to? I know I could do it no problem, but would a football team be willing to drive on a bus that far or would they just hop on a plane?

omnicarrier Wrote:Not sure what Cincinnati fans feel about being in what is suppose to be a northeastern conference, but at this point I have to think that Pitt-WVU-UL-UC will form quite a nice compact geographical rivalry base. As would have SU-BC-UConn-RU.

By and large Cincinnati fans are pretty much pleased to be in a northeastern conference. A lot of people come to Cincinnati from New York and areas around there so it makes since.

CyberBull Wrote:Travel costs are really a non-factor for USF. We had to fly all our sports in C-USA, so nothing is really going to change. If anything, USF actually did a study that showed that travel costs would actually go down a little bit once we joined the BigEast just about all BE schools are close to a major airport.

Regarding UCF, what many people forget is that once USF learned it would be replacing BC it was lobbying for UCF to become BE number 9. This was documented in both the Orando and Tampa Bay area media. That is the irony about all the pent up hatred for USF by UCFers. It was a source of frustration for some USF fans b/c there is a long history of UCF's administration trying to get diminish USF football. That is, when USF was trying to get the State's approval for football there were some very candid and negative comments by UCF's football and academic administration about the potential of USF football. Similarly when UCF was among the early leaders for the BE they talked down USF's potential.

However, despite all the childishness from UCF, South Florida took the high road and opted to help them out when it had every reason to return serve and squash them when they were down. Today that same animosity exists. Recently UCF's admin has gone out of their way several times to take shots at USF. Many of their supporters view this as them having a chip on their shoulders, in reality it's just another example of the institutional wide insecurities they suffer from in Orlando and just plain and simple low class. If you doubt what I am saying, ask any MAC fan what I am talking about in reference to their players and behavior of visiting fans. Similarly ask West Virginia fans what they think of UCF.....

USF doesn't need UCF to survive. Furthermore, for all the talk about facilities nothing has really come out of the ground at UCF. To date it's just cleared fields and schematics. They still don't have financing in place for their new arena and the football stadium is running into regulatory pitfalls that can significantly delay the project. Building costs are going to continue to rise, so if they wait too long to move forward they may be priced out the market. UCF fans like to talk a lot about their facilities but the truth is that by the time they are all finished, USF will be well into finishing it's athletic village plan.

That makes sense. I always got the sense that it was USF vs UCF for a membership in the Big East originally. Now that South Florida is a solid member of the conference why fight UCF? Adding UCF might not hurt recruiting much, Miami and Florida State co-exist fine, and Miami, Florida and Florida State all co-existed fine while battling each other for recruits while being in a BCS conference.