MU88 Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:

Cat's_Claw Wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa, TopCoog said that the BigEast never considered splitting and will never vote to split.  He might be right about the not voting to split part, they just may force a split.  It also confirms the talk that the Big East will only be together for a few years because they split into separate conferences.  Adding Depaul and Marquette was clearly critical since it would allow the B-ball schools to have, at the minimum, the required 6 football schools to maintain their automatic bid andsuch.

This conference is so ready to split its not even funny. The article plainly states the only reason they didn't split right away is that they didn't want to destroy the basketball only members. None of the all-sport members wanted or want a hybrid, that much is plainly obvious.

No. The article says that was the reason given by the football schools for not splitting. The real reason was that ND didn't go along with the football schools plan and the football schools didn't want to give up, among other things, their NCAA credits. Its a nice thing that ND finally helped out it fellow Catholic schools. Unlike Catholic school football which ND let die on the vine, this time ND took steps to help out its sister schools.

Also, here is another thought for you. I am not sure that the schools will split completely. Unless some of the football schools add/drop certain non-sports and the basketball schools do the same, the athletic programs don't exactly lineup. A conference needs to offer 16 sports and at least 6 teams need to play each, 8 in football. I would guess that if a split occurs, you will see some sort of federation that allows the schools to play in each other's conference as associate members.

No. You're wrong. The league is splitting. Expansion was carried out with that intention. The fact that ND may have held up the split is inconsequential. History has proven that hybrids are a disaster and a stop-gap measure at best. The all-sports members have 5 years in which to agree to the athletic format. Think about it for a while.

L-yes Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:

Cat's_Claw Wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa, TopCoog said that the BigEast never considered splitting and will never vote to split.  He might be right about the not voting to split part, they just may force a split.  It also confirms the talk that the Big East will only be together for a few years because they split into separate conferences.  Adding Depaul and Marquette was clearly critical since it would allow the B-ball schools to have, at the minimum, the required 6 football schools to maintain their automatic bid andsuch.

This conference is so ready to split its not even funny. The article plainly states the only reason they didn't split right away is that they didn't want to destroy the basketball only members. None of the all-sport members wanted or want a hybrid, that much is plainly obvious.

No. The article says that was the reason given by the football schools for not splitting. The real reason was that ND didn't go along with the football schools plan and the football schools didn't want to give up, among other things, their NCAA credits. Its a nice thing that ND finally helped out it fellow Catholic schools. Unlike Catholic school football which ND let die on the vine, this time ND took steps to help out its sister schools.

Also, here is another thought for you. I am not sure that the schools will split completely. Unless some of the football schools add/drop certain non-sports and the basketball schools do the same, the athletic programs don't exactly lineup. A conference needs to offer 16 sports and at least 6 teams need to play each, 8 in football. I would guess that if a split occurs, you will see some sort of federation that allows the schools to play in each other's conference as associate members.

No. You're wrong. The league is splitting. Expansion was carried out with that intention. The fact that ND may have held up the split is inconsequential. History has proven that hybrids are a disaster and a stop-gap measure at best. The all-sports members have 5 years in which to agree to the athletic format. Think about it for a while.

I know you want a complete split to happen, but you are not looking at it rationally. I am not saying a split won't occur but look at the facts. For example, after the 3 new football schools are added, you still need another 2 field hockey schools and another 3 lacrosse schools to continue playing as a conference. The same is true in other sports. In order to form their own conference, the football schools would have to add and drop non-revenue sports in order to have enough member institutions to compete. Will UC start lacrosse and invest in the program? Will the conference drop field hockey? What will the conference add to replace field hockey in order to have the minimum number of schools participating? Then, what happens to the field hockey program at the 4 schools that do offer the sport? There is a lot of expense associated with adding and dropping programs.

I envision the 16 schools forming 2 conferences, but in some sports, the conference will co-sponsor the league. This will allow each school to continue to offer its chosen group of non-revenue sports. Face it, for the most part, there are longstanding relationships between the schools in the BE. Besides, the relationships between the original BE members, MU, DePaul and ND have been playing each other for 90 years. MU and ND were in the same non-revenue sports league in the 80s. MU, DePaul and UC have been in the same conference for 15 years. I see all 16 schools cooperating with each other to insure the most economically friendly situation for the member institutions when and if the split occurs.

I too am interested to see if the split extends outside of the major sports as well. Do you kick Nova, G'Town, Seton Hall, and St. Johns to the curb in baseball? Are Nova and Providence out for field hockey? etc. etc.

MU88 Wrote:No. The article says that was the reason given by the football schools for not splitting. The real reason was that ND didn't go along with the football schools plan and the football schools didn't want to give up, among other things, their NCAA credits. Its a nice thing that ND finally helped out it fellow Catholic schools. Unlike Catholic school football which ND let die on the vine, this time ND took steps to help out its sister schools.

There is a quote in the article that clearly says that the football schools didn't split on their own:

"If we had just up and left, it would've been disruptive to the point of destructive," he said. "In order to give them the opportunity to exist, if you will, and to grow, we had to expand on both sides. Our presidents were not prepared to stab them in the back the way some of the rest of us had been stabbed in the back."


Notre Dame played a big part but don't think for a second that the football schools wouldn't find a way to split if they wanted to.

MU88 Wrote:I know you want a complete split to happen, but you are not looking at it rationally. I am not saying a split won't occur but look at the facts. For example, after the 3 new football schools are added, you still need another 2 field hockey schools and another 3 lacrosse schools to continue playing as a conference. The same is true in other sports. In order to form their own conference, the football schools would have to add and drop non-revenue sports in order to have enough member institutions to compete. Will UC start lacrosse and invest in the program? Will the conference drop field hockey? What will the conference add to replace field hockey in order to have the minimum number of schools participating? Then, what happens to the field hockey program at the 4 schools that do offer the sport? There is a lot of expense associated with adding and dropping programs.

UC has already started to put into place programs to add and improve their Olympic Sports. Clearly that would help in a conference split and probably is done to speed up a conference split.

MU88 Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:

Cat's_Claw Wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa, TopCoog said that the BigEast never considered splitting and will never vote to split.  He might be right about the not voting to split part, they just may force a split.  It also confirms the talk that the Big East will only be together for a few years because they split into separate conferences.  Adding Depaul and Marquette was clearly critical since it would allow the B-ball schools to have, at the minimum, the required 6 football schools to maintain their automatic bid andsuch.

This conference is so ready to split its not even funny. The article plainly states the only reason they didn't split right away is that they didn't want to destroy the basketball only members. None of the all-sport members wanted or want a hybrid, that much is plainly obvious.

No. The article says that was the reason given by the football schools for not splitting. The real reason was that ND didn't go along with the football schools plan and the football schools didn't want to give up, among other things, their NCAA credits. Its a nice thing that ND finally helped out it fellow Catholic schools. Unlike Catholic school football which ND let die on the vine, this time ND took steps to help out its sister schools.

Also, here is another thought for you. I am not sure that the schools will split completely. Unless some of the football schools add/drop certain non-sports and the basketball schools do the same, the athletic programs don't exactly lineup. A conference needs to offer 16 sports and at least 6 teams need to play each, 8 in football. I would guess that if a split occurs, you will see some sort of federation that allows the schools to play in each other's conference as associate members.

No. You're wrong. The league is splitting. Expansion was carried out with that intention. The fact that ND may have held up the split is inconsequential. History has proven that hybrids are a disaster and a stop-gap measure at best. The all-sports members have 5 years in which to agree to the athletic format. Think about it for a while.

I know you want a complete split to happen, but you are not looking at it rationally. I am not saying a split won't occur but look at the facts. For example, after the 3 new football schools are added, you still need another 2 field hockey schools and another 3 lacrosse schools to continue playing as a conference. The same is true in other sports. In order to form their own conference, the football schools would have to add and drop non-revenue sports in order to have enough member institutions to compete. Will UC start lacrosse and invest in the program? Will the conference drop field hockey? What will the conference add to replace field hockey in order to have the minimum number of schools participating? Then, what happens to the field hockey program at the 4 schools that do offer the sport? There is a lot of expense associated with adding and dropping programs.

I envision the 16 schools forming 2 conferences, but in some sports, the conference will co-sponsor the league. This will allow each school to continue to offer its chosen group of non-revenue sports. Face it, for the most part, there are longstanding relationships between the schools in the BE. Besides, the relationships between the original BE members, MU, DePaul and ND have been playing each other for 90 years. MU and ND were in the same non-revenue sports league in the 80s. MU, DePaul and UC have been in the same conference for 15 years. I see all 16 schools cooperating with each other to insure the most economically friendly situation for the member institutions when and if the split occurs.

I'm completely rational and luckily so are the ADs and Presidents who will ultimately make the decision (it’s already been made if you want my opinion). I'll make a friendly bet with you that if we are still around this board over the next three years we will hear something about an imminent split; it could be sooner, it could be later. I wouldn't be too surprised if we see a program that is willing to come aboard for football only membership in the near future with the full membership coming upon the split in 2010. It’s just a matter of who would be willing to do that which would be anyone we asked outside the BCS if it came down to it.

Quote: envision the 16 schools forming 2 conferences, but in some sports, the conference will co-sponsor the league. This will allow each school to continue to offer its chosen group of non-revenue sports. Face it, for the most part, there are longstanding relationships between the schools in the BE. Besides, the relationships between the original BE members, MU, DePaul and ND have been playing each other for 90 years. MU and ND were in the same non-revenue sports league in the 80s. MU, DePaul and UC have been in the same conference for 15 years. I see all 16 schools cooperating with each other to insure the most economically friendly situation for the member institutions when and if the split occurs.

-- I am completly against this idea...The football schools split needs to be as clean as the MWCs was from the WAC...GT baseball cannot play in the EAC with all other sports in the BE

-- Obviously this kind of siutation has to be negotatied...and the way that I am reading the BE papers the football schools were railroaded into staying with the bball onlys...to me that doesn't speak well for the relationship between the two leagues in the future...The only situation I would be in favor of is an EAC/BE challenge in hoops like the ACC/Big 10 has

Quote:I wouldn't be too surprised if we see a program that is willing to come aboard for football only membership in the near future with the full membership coming upon the split in 2010. It’s just a matter of who would be willing to do that which would be anyone we asked outside the BCS if it came down to it.

-- Agreed...I think a football only member is coming after the 2005 season


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:I imagine it will officially happen in 2010, but the decision will be made long before that.

-- That is my understanding of things as well....I would imagine the new leage would officially come into being in the summer of 2010, prior to football season

-- I would also think that the membership of the all sports league would have to be known sometime in 2008 just to get the schedules in place, and so voting can take place for where the league offices should be/to start looking for a commisioner


Jackson

We may be hearing split as early as 2008.

Notre Dame I think in the end will join the football schools after the split because they also have better basketball.

On the 9th member its really anyones guess. Memphis has the best overall support numbers between football and basketball, but they have a geography problem. ECU has the football but not the basketball needed. Marshall has the geography but little potential. UCF has potential but is coming off an 0-11 season.

Maybe the Big East needs to take another look at Temple after the split. They have as much TV value as any, plus the geography. It would give the EAC a stronger footprint in the Northeast which they are going to need after the split from Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown, and St.John's.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:I imagine it will officially happen in 2010, but the decision will be made long before that.

-- That is my understanding of things as well....I would imagine the new leage would officially come into being in the summer of 2010, prior to football season

-- I would also think that the membership of the all sports league would have to be known sometime in 2008 just to get the schedules in place, and so voting can take place for where the league offices should be/to start looking for a commisioner


Jackson

We may be hearing split as early as 2008.

Notre Dame I think in the end will join the football schools after the split because they also have better basketball.

On the 9th member its really anyones guess. Memphis has the best overall support numbers between football and basketball, but they have a geography problem. ECU has the football but not the basketball needed. Marshall has the geography but little potential. UCF has potential but is coming off an 0-11 season.

Maybe the Big East needs to take another look at Temple after the split. They have as much TV value as any, plus the geography. It would give the EAC a stronger footprint in the Northeast which they are going to need after the split from Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Georgetown, and St.John's.

Just say no to Temple. All they do is give a portal to the Philly market, nothing more.
Location--->not in a very good part of the city, Academics--->nothing special, Fan Support--->horrible, TV eyeballs---> :laugh:

Truth be known--if the BE didn't already have two immature programs (USF and UConn) I would rather give Nova a chance over a third life for Temple. Unfortunatley, Nova had their chance to upgrade into the BE at the same time UConn did.

Temple needs to join the A-10 and drop FB to 1-AA

"Notre Dame I think in the end will join the football schools after the split because they also have better basketball."

Well, its close. Here are the average RPIs of the 16 NBE members as of today.

Football Schools 72.5
BBall Schools 80.1

Again, ND is first a Catholic school, second an academic instiution and third, plays sports. If the bball schools are able to provide acceptable non-revenue competiton, I would guess that ND sticks with the hoops schools. Its natural rivals are the hoops schools and these schools are peer institutions. Further, I am sure ND has more alums and draws a greater percentage of students from Milwaukee, Chicago, NY, DC, Prov/Boston than Orlando, Memphis, Louisville, or WV. The Milwaukee archdiocese has around 1,000,000 members, the Memphis diocese has 60,000. Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along? I am not sure that they add that much financial without football to justify splitting revenue another way.

MU88 Wrote:Further, I am sure ND has more alums and draws a greater percentage of students from Milwaukee, Chicago, NY, DC, Prov/Boston than Orlando, Memphis, Louisville, or WV. The Milwaukee archdiocese has around 1,000,000 members, the Memphis diocese has 60,000. Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along? I am not sure that they add that much financial without football to justify splitting revenue another way.

You are right about the basketball schools being in attractive markets for the university of Notre Dame.

The same ND catholic connection could be said about the current football schools except for WVU and USF. Not sure about Louisville but I would assume they have a larger diocese than Memphis.

Notre Dame brings a lot of name value as a 9th or 10th basketball member to the Football conference. They have a presence in the Chicago market and anywhere else in the region.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:Further, I am sure ND has more alums and draws a greater percentage of students from Milwaukee, Chicago, NY, DC, Prov/Boston than Orlando, Memphis, Louisville, or WV.  The Milwaukee archdiocese has around 1,000,000 members, the Memphis diocese has 60,000.  Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along?  I am not sure that they add that much financial without football to justify splitting revenue another way.

You are right about the basketball schools being in attractive markets for the university of Notre Dame.

The same ND catholic connection could be said about the current football schools except for WVU and USF. Not sure about Louisville but I would assume they have a larger diocese than Memphis.

Notre Dame brings a lot of name value as a 9th or 10th basketball member to the Football conference. They have a presence in the Chicago market and anywhere else in the region.

Louisville is an archdioceses fwiw.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:Further, I am sure ND has more alums and draws a greater percentage of students from Milwaukee, Chicago, NY, DC, Prov/Boston than Orlando, Memphis, Louisville, or WV.  The Milwaukee archdiocese has around 1,000,000 members, the Memphis diocese has 60,000.  Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along?  I am not sure that they add that much financial without football to justify splitting revenue another way.

You are right about the basketball schools being in attractive markets for the university of Notre Dame.

The same ND catholic connection could be said about the current football schools except for WVU and USF. Not sure about Louisville but I would assume they have a larger diocese than Memphis.

Notre Dame brings a lot of name value as a 9th or 10th basketball member to the Football conference. They have a presence in the Chicago market and anywhere else in the region.

It might not be a matter of the football schools wanting Notre Dame so much as Notre Dame tagging along with the football schools in a split meaning they cut a deal. Notre Dame may look at the football schools as being more stable then the b-ball schools since they would bring in more money.

There are some sports we might see BE teams still play in the same conference. Baseball, for one. Providence, Marquette, and DePaul don't play baseball, leaving them 5 teams...one of the perimeters of a split might be letting in their baseball teams.

Cat's_Claw Wrote:

Kit-Cat,Feb 25 2005, 07:27 PM Wrote:[QUOTE=MU88,Feb 25 2005, 01:39 PM] Further, I am sure ND has more alums and draws a greater percentage of students from Milwaukee, Chicago, NY, DC, Prov/Boston than Orlando, Memphis, Louisville, or WV. The Milwaukee archdiocese has around 1,000,000 members, the Memphis diocese has 60,000. Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along? I am not sure that they add that much financial without football to justify splitting revenue another way.

You are right about the basketball schools being in attractive markets for the university of Notre Dame.

<a href='http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/scus2.html' target='_blank'>http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/scus2.html</a>

Rank Cath Pop Pop of Area % Area Name
155 64,944 1,455,808 4.46% Memphis
91 197,283 1,220,070 16.17% Louisville (Archdiocese)
70 260,000 1,211,537 21.46% Honolulu
3 2,442,000 6,052,000 40.35% Chicago (Archdiocese)
24 689,519 2,236,283 30.83% Milwaukee (Archdiocese)
32 516,470 2,932,047 17.61% Cincinnati (Archdiocese)
135 88,485 464,629 19.04% Covington (which is part of Greater Cincinnati, but is part of Louisville's archdiocese numbers)
19 793,417 1,975,373 40.17% Pittsburgh
56 345,736 1,174,887 29.43% Syracuse
22 719,963 1,863,384 38.64% Hartford (Archdiocese)

I'm not sure what any of this really means with regard to this discussion.

MU88 Wrote:Besides, why would the football schools want ND if they don't bring football along?&nbsp;

If the year is 2010, then we don't need anything from Notre Dame.

The only thing they can do for us is agree to join the football schools (even without playing football), in a year or two so our new conference will have the required 6 continuous members for 5 years, so basketball and all the other sports can keep their NCAA automatic bids.

I think it would be worth it in a year or two if Notre Dame decides to do this because we really need to get the split done sooner rather than later.

But if the year 2010 is approaching and we still haven't split, then there would be no reason to take Notre Dame if they're not going to play Big East football.

I think in 2010, Notre Dame will either be a full member or gone! I think we may have a ninth football only member in the 2006 season.