(03-31-2012 11:49 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  I would definitely agree that the Rutgers and UConn invites to the ACC go out soon after FSU and Clemson departures, if they were to happen.

I think if the ACC were to lose two schools then they'd sit at 12. If you lose FSU one of the top programs in football, and Clemson one of the better ones you don't replace them with UConn and Rutgers. Especially when you still have enough teams for a conference title game.

You think if FSU and Clemson leave that schools like Miami and Georgia Tech wouldn't be thinking about how they wouldn't mind going with?

If it is true that the ACC went to 14 to act before departures so they would never drop below 12 then that same mindset is relevant in the current situation if FSU and Clemson are actually thinking about leaving. If they do leave you have to seriously take into consideration that two more will leave with them. If you do not want Pitt to then go, you invite Rutgers and UConn to make them think twice.

UConn would insure the ACC is the dominant Basketball conference, Rutgers would get 'em in New York's door. They may not necessarily be worth bringing in and going to 16...but they could be a good fallback to get back to 14 for those two reasons alone. The ACC takes pride in it's hoops, which DOES add value, and is one reason why I think the two more football oriented schools are looking to bolt.

Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

For ATHLETICS I don't think ANYONE would move. For the MONEY those athletics bring, especially in this economy, I can ABSOLUTELY see schools moving. That research costs money...

(03-31-2012 09:45 AM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 09:44 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  OK. When the Big XII has a new commissioner, they'll decide who wants to join and invite 'em...

Now that's going out on a limb.

Like I tell all my nephews, never bet unless it's a sure thing...

(03-31-2012 11:11 AM)3rdandBlunder Wrote:  There's been talk of Rutgers to the BigXII, though I'm skeptical of that. The ACC seems like a reasonable choice for UConn and Rutgers, especially if they lose the two of Clemson and FSU.

I think there's some very good schools left out there honestly to do something with that just aren't being looked at by the big leagues. Boise, Houston...those schools are stout and would help make a solid backbone. While I think Cincy is a dark horse candidate for the BigXII, I wouldn't write them completely off just yet depending on what BYU decided to do.

3rd, from what I gather, Rutgers is as good a choice as any other. Once Louisville bridges the gap between WVU and the rest of the Big XII, Rutgers isn't that much of a stretch. It's about the same distance from Morgantown as Louisville. It would also give the Big XII a foothold into the NYC audience, which would enhance the value of the Big XII's TV contract...

If FSU and Clemson are real possibilities for Big XII membership, adding Rutgers and Louisville to get to 14 would round things out nicely. It would allow the Big XII to rival the SEC in overall football strength, and would give the Big XII a TV presense in Florida and South Carolina, as well as up the Ohio Valley to Pittsburgh, covering the State of West Virginia east to D.C. and Baltimore, reaching up to NYC...

It makes sense to me...

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  When was the last time Greg Swaim was right about expansion?

Never.

(03-31-2012 12:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

Thank you.
If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.
It's interesting how many say that ther are so many ACC schools that have value to other conferences (FSU, Clemson to the Big XII), and Maryland, UVa, Carolina and Duke to the B1G), but nobody seems to understand or acknowledge how strong a group of 12 (soon to be 14) the ACC really is.
The strongest confernces (SEC, B1G, PAC, and ACC((after Pitt and Syracuse)) ) are contiguous.

(03-31-2012 12:40 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

Thank you.
If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.
It's interesting how many say that ther are so many ACC schools that have value to other conferences (FSU, Clemson to the Big XII), and Maryland, UVa, Carolina and Duke to the B1G), but nobody seems to understand or acknowledge how strong a group of 12 (soon to be 14) the ACC really is.
The strongest confernces (SEC, B1G, PAC, and ACC((after Pitt and Syracuse)) ) are contiguous.

Well, I do refer to it as the ACC vs Big 12 battle right? That means it is not a slaughter and yes the ACC does stand a shot at pulling something out.

I just feel that right now the ACC is standing on weaker footing because Texas went ahead with tv rights with the Big 12 and they signed on to a broadcasting deal that definitely puts the Big 12 above the ACC currently.

If the premise of your scenario happening is Texas moving to the SEC though....then that is going to be a hard sell. With Texas A&M the SEC can then begin expanding the broadcasting of its' games into Texas. If an SEC network is launched then they will be selling it to markets in Texas, especially when you consider LSU and Arkansas also have viewership in Texas. With a program landed in North Carolina and one in Virginia that opens those entire states to more SEC viewing. I think that is a more sure thing then trying to pull Texas into the SEC.

(03-31-2012 12:40 PM)XLance Wrote:  If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.

If Texas was willing to take an equal share of conference revenues and willing to give up ESPN's $15 million bribe a/k/a LHN, then they would have already joined the Pac or B1G or SEC. They haven't joined one of those leagues because they like their bribe money, they like making a lot more money than their conference competitors, and they like being in a position of power and control in their league.

The Big 12 might be around for quite awhile because no other "major" conference will go along with UT's demands in these areas.

Just the other day, Slive again said that the SEC does not permit its members to have their own school network. On top of that, UT likes being a big fish in a smaller pond, and the SEC has too many of its own big fish for UT to ever want to join.

Bit, I don't think you fully heard what I had to say. I think Clemson and FSU will come...as 13 and 14. I do NOT think they'd be 11 and 12. Like I said, they don't NEED to move. They may not be fully happy where they're at, but they're comfortable for now. I think it's going to take the BigXII add Louisville and BYU (or Rutgers, or Cincy, ect), to do the job. Not necessarily because Clemson and FSU are going to rush out the door to play in a conference with Louisville...but making THAT move first does a number of things that will sweeten the pot for Clemson and FSU:

1) It brings The BigXII back up to snuff. The rest of the conference world is at 12+ including, at the moment, the new Big East. Sitting at 10 and throwing darts at the wall does NOT put the BigXII in a position of strength over the 14 school ACC.

2) It brings in the extra revenue with a CCG. People may talk hogwash about how a CCG is or isn't bad for the BigXII, but the truth of the matter is, it's money in the bank from the TV networks.

3) It'll show precisely how much more money they can make going to the BigXII under the BigXII's new TV deal, which is structured to bring in money if schools come on board. The numbers will become clearer once the BigXII is at 12 and with a CCG than they are right now.

4) BYU notwithstanding, Louisville bridges the gap. While I understand the somewhat national appeal is alluring for BYU, quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if ALL expansion was eastward. As or right now, Clemson and FSU would equally be on an island and isolated from the rest of the BigXII....they'd just be on that island with WVU. Certainly it eases the pains of travel having neighbors close by, but there are still travel pains. The more schools you can put in the east, the happier everyone (in the east) is going to be.

From all accounts, the BigXII has Louisville and BYU in the bag. Making the move to bring us on first will prove to the ACC duo that they are, in fact, taking steps toward stability. That alone is a big deal.

So I take it that no one learned from last year that Greg Swaim is an absolute idiot.

(03-31-2012 01:18 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  So I take it that no one learned from last year that Greg Swaim is an absolute idiot.

This

They should add Louisville and Cincinatti. Solid football and very good basketball. Big markets, especially Cincinatti. Let BYU join the Big Least or Alliance if they need a conference to join someday.

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  When was the last time Greg Swaim was right about expansion?

Given that he's probably reported every conceivable combination of things as fact, he's probably predicted most moves before they happen.

If Florida State and Clemson were really interested (and at this point, I don't believe that anymore, but it was possible), then I don't see an advantage to adding Louisville and BYU first. Florida State and Clemson might prefer a 14 or 16 team conference, but they would want the added teams to be teams they are used to playing to help them fit in better in the Big 12. In other words, if you have the Big 12 and those two schools seriously talking, the more likely combination in my opinion (if 14 or 16 were wanted) would be to expand the offer to more ACC schools. If the ACC was really close to losing both Florida State and Clemson, does anyone doubt that Georgia Tech and Miami (FL) would hesitate to follow? If not them, then maybe even Pitt and Maryland.

I think Louisville and BYU make a lot of sense for the Big 12 if it goes back to 12 (which it probably will eventually), but I just don't think it's fits in well together with a move into ACC territory.

(03-31-2012 11:49 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  I would definitely agree that the Rutgers and UConn invites to the ACC go out soon after FSU and Clemson departures, if they were to happen.

I think if the ACC were to lose two schools then they'd sit at 12. If you lose FSU one of the top programs in football, and Clemson one of the better ones you don't replace them with UConn and Rutgers. Especially when you still have enough teams for a conference title game.

At that point the ACC needs 2 more because this is what I would expect if FSU/Clemson move...

UNC. GT, MD, UVA, Duke, and others will listen to Big Ten talks
VT & NCST would listen to the SEC
Miami probably comes with FSU

You'd need numbers just incase.

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

why would Vanderbilt or South Carolina leave the SEC for the ACC? South Carolina still gets their rivalry game against Clemson no matter which conference they're in and both schools would lose money and prestige by moving to a clearly inferior conference.

(03-31-2012 01:41 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  If Florida State and Clemson were really interested (and at this point, I don't believe that anymore, but it was possible), then I don't see an advantage to adding Louisville and BYU first. Florida State and Clemson might prefer a 14 or 16 team conference, but they would want the added teams to be teams they are used to playing to help them fit in better in the Big 12. In other words, if you have the Big 12 and those two schools seriously talking, the more likely combination in my opinion (if 14 or 16 were wanted) would be to expand the offer to more ACC schools. If the ACC was really close to losing both Florida State and Clemson to the Big 12, does anyone doubt that Georgia Tech and Miami (FL) would hesitate to follow? If not them, then maybe even Pitt and Maryland.

+1000 with the added caveat that was implied but I made explicit.

Cheers,
Neil

(03-31-2012 12:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:40 PM)XLance Wrote:  If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.

If Texas was willing to take an equal share of conference revenues and willing to give up ESPN's $15 million bribe a/k/a LHN, then they would have already joined the Pac or B1G or SEC. They haven't joined one of those leagues because they like their bribe money, they like making a lot more money than their conference competitors, and they like being in a position of power and control in their league.

The Big 12 might be around for quite awhile because no other "major" conference will go along with UT's demands in these areas.

Just the other day, Slive again said that the SEC does not permit its members to have their own school network. On top of that, UT likes being a big fish in a smaller pond, and the SEC has too many of its own big fish for UT to ever want to join.

You must be related to Powers because you seem to know the mind of UT better than most.