(05-01-2012 03:00 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  But this is the head pastor of a fairly prominent church, to judge from their website. He is a leader in the community. And you think he's an isolated case? I guarantee you he's getting calls from followers and other pastors congratulating him on having the guts to say what they are all thinking.

This is the face of Christianity for many.

Refresh my memory. What are your views on reverend Wright?

What does that have to do with the pastor?

EDIT: Before you say it, I know what you're going to say but that's in regards to the poster your question was addressed to. My point is that that has nothing to do with what this pastor said, which is the point of this thread.

(05-01-2012 10:33 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Before you say it, I know what you're going to say

Thanks for making it unnecessary for me to say anything.

Hmmm...

What if your son is pulling out his privates and playing with them in public?

What if you daughter dismembers her dolls?

What if your child pitches screaming fits by the candy in the checkout line at the grocery store?

When is it okay to discipline a child? Who has the right to make that decision?

Children are taught what acceptable behavior is every day. It is the norm in their world.

(05-01-2012 11:23 PM)Claw Wrote:  Hmmm...

What if your son is pulling out his privates and playing with them in public?

What if you daughter dismembers her dolls?

What if your child pitches screaming fits by the candy in the checkout line at the grocery store?

When is it okay to discipline a child? Who has the right to make that decision?

Children are taught what acceptable behavior is every day. It is the norm in their world.

1) Claw there is a difference between exposing themselves in Public and having a "limp wrist"... I would smack their bottom for the former and try to discourage the latter by talking to them.

2) If my Girls take their dolls apart they lose their dolls and have less to play with... Life lesson learned.

3) If my kid throws a fit in the store they don't get to come with me next time. Fits get you the opposite of what you want in my home..

(05-01-2012 11:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(05-01-2012 11:23 PM)Claw Wrote:  Hmmm...

What if your son is pulling out his privates and playing with them in public?

What if you daughter dismembers her dolls?

What if your child pitches screaming fits by the candy in the checkout line at the grocery store?

When is it okay to discipline a child? Who has the right to make that decision?

Children are taught what acceptable behavior is every day. It is the norm in their world.

1) Claw there is a difference between exposing themselves in Public and having a "limp wrist"... I would smack their bottom for the former and try to discourage the latter by talking to them.

2) If my Girls take their dolls apart they lose their dolls and have less to play with... Life lesson learned.

3) If my kid throws a fit in the store they don't get to come with me next time. Fits get you the opposite of what you want in my home..

So it's a matter of parental judgment.

My mother refused to ever let me have a skateboard or a motorcycle. Parental discretion.

Refusing to let your girl play sports might be the same thing to another parent. Same deal with the limp wrist.

I remember kids who weren't allowed to watch TV. I thought as a kid and a parent that was taking things a little too far. But, whose decision is it?

It is late and reading this so am I missing something but did Torchy ever say that the preachers comments were wrong? I don't think he ever did. Hmm.

@ Bull. I can see it now. "Son, it is against the word of God for a boy to be feminine. If you continue having a limp wrist and being feminine you are going to go to Hell." And people wonder why gay kids from fundamentalist Christian families commit suicide.

(05-01-2012 11:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  1) Claw there is a difference between exposing themselves in Public and having a "limp wrist"... I would smack their bottom for the former and try to discourage the latter by talking to them.

I understand that it's better than physically striking, but I'm not sure how much "trying to discourage ... by talking to them" helps in this matter. If a kid is going to grow up gay, he's going to grow up gay. Trying to talk him out of it, so to speak, is likely to cause more harm (i.e. feelings of shame, self-resentment, etc.).

(05-02-2012 07:20 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  [quote='Bull_In_Exile' pid='7840014' dateline='1335932810']
I understand that it's better than physically striking, but I'm not sure how much "trying to discourage ... by talking to them" helps in this matter. If a kid is going to grow up gay, he's going to grow up gay. Trying to talk him out of it, so to speak, is likely to cause more harm (i.e. feelings of shame, self-resentment, etc.).

I don't buy the premise that gender identity and sexual preference are completely fixed at birth. It's the only behavior that people have decided is totally seperated from nurture and thats BS...

It's a spectrum and for a very small number *yes* they are 99.999999% on one end or the other but in between there is room. I have gay family and we all knew very early on in his life that something was not right. But his father did *nothing* to address it.

With *any* sin I will discourage but in discipline it's important to let your kid know that (1) Lying is the only real biggie between the kid and parent and (2) no matter what the sin I will love them.

Also whenever my kids sin and I have to discipline them I let them know that *I am no better* and that I have sins of my own and that's why we need Jesus.

(05-02-2012 12:00 AM)Claw Wrote:  So it's a matter of parental judgment.

I remember kids who weren't allowed to watch TV. I thought as a kid and a parent that was taking things a little too far. But, whose decision is it?

When to punch a child? Whose decision? Nobody's. A parent who "punches" a 4 year old should be sitting his ass in jail.

(05-01-2012 10:20 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Refresh my memory. What are your views on reverend Wright?

Perhaps you'll refresh my memory: does he advocate punching 4-year olds who exhibit characteristics he considers gay?

(05-01-2012 10:08 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Of course he does, he is a bigot and thats what they do. Any one example that fits their narrative is held up as the standard and anything that does not is dismissed as an outlier.

It's not an outlier. One radio preacher at a National Organization of Marriage rally in NYC (Rev. Ariel Torres Ortega of Radio Visión Cristiana) said that gays "are worthy to death, not only do they do it, but those who also practice it" - - at the rally. US Pastor Scott Lively is primarily responsible for anti-gay sermons and seminars in Uganda that have resulted in that country possibly implementing the death penalty against homosexuals. Preacher Peter J. Peters in Colorado wrote a pamphlet called "Death Penalty for Homosexuals." Prominent Nebraska preacher and Ron Paul supporter Rev. Phillip G. Kayser advocates death for gays, as well: It is not just the sinfulness of homosexuality that is known, but also the justice of the death penalty for homosexuality. In verse 32 Paul says, "Who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." (And Paul's campaign bragged about Rev. Kayser's endorsement.) Prominent and highly popular Arizona Preacher Steven L. Anderson also advocates the death penalty for gays. Pastor DL Foster told Americans for Truth about Homosexuality (AFTAH) radio show that Dan Savage should be arrested for "propagating a lie to vulnerable kids" when saying "it gets better." This is just the very tip of the ice berg. I could go on and on. So no, it's not an outlier.

(05-01-2012 10:08 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Who cares if I live in a christian community... Who ares that my family reads christian authors, listens to other pastors and follow the Christian Community... he knows better.

You can live in a Christian community all you want, see these people every Sunday - hell, every day - and you still wouldn't have any clue whatsoever what goes on behind the private walls of their homes. You can say you don't know anybody who would do this or advocate this, but those are just empty words because you have zero clue.

(05-01-2012 10:08 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I have not heard his whole sermon, I sincerely hope he was not endorsing physical violence of that magnitude as a means of discipline. But I cna assure you in the half dozen or so churches I have attended in my life not one would have ever been ok with it..

It's not taken out of context. Read the transcript or listen to recording. He says parents should "punch" their 4 year old son if he exhibits gay-like behavior. Whether your church's would have been OK with it or not, I have no reason to doubt you when you say that they wouldn't. Fine. Nowhere did I say that every Christian church acts in this manner. I would like to see the outrage and opposition from Christians in North Carolina over this Preacher's words. I suspect I'm in for a long wait.

Ahhh, so the good pastor now says it was a "joke" now that his comments went viral and were notice by the press. Fun, fun.

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2012...ac=fo.home

"If I had to say it again, I would say it differently, no doubt," Harris said Tuesday. "Those weren't planned words, but what I do stand by is that the word of God makes it clear that effeminate behavior is ungodly. I'm not going to compromise on that."

(05-02-2012 08:35 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  I would like to see the outrage and opposition from Christians in North Carolina over this Preacher's words. I suspect I'm in for a long wait.

I think people in general are more reticent to express outrage and opposition when it's against their own "kind". We see it along racial lines, gender lines, religious lines, ideological lines, etc, every day. And I say this in the context of it being a drawback. It's a shame, really. Too much of a collectivist 'buddy system' out there where being a dissenting voice is frowned upon, even if that opposition helps their whatever group in the long run (it's one of the reasons why Ron Paul earned the respect he did -- never had a problem calling out the GOP-ers around him).

(05-02-2012 08:54 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(05-02-2012 08:35 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  I would like to see the outrage and opposition from Christians in North Carolina over this Preacher's words. I suspect I'm in for a long wait.

I think people in general are more reticent to express outrage and opposition when it's against their own "kind". We see it along racial lines, gender lines, religious lines, ideological lines, etc, every day. And I say this in the context of it being a drawback. It's a shame, really. Too much of a collectivist 'buddy system' out there where being a dissenting voice is frowned upon, even if that opposition helps their whatever group in the long run (it's one of the reasons why Ron Paul earned the respect he did -- never had a problem calling out the GOP-ers around him).

Well every Christian on this tread has said it's unacceptable to break your kids arm for acting gay....

(05-02-2012 08:59 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Well every Christian on this tread has said it's unacceptable to break your kids arm for acting gay....

Really?

More Christian Love from a religious leader in North Carolina:

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/boy...7/31/24662

A four-year old boy was shot to death by his common-law father, a religious leader who thought the boy was gay, because he had slapped another boy’s behind. As The New Civil Rights Movement reported earlier this month, four-year old Jadon Higganbothan was murdered by Peter Lucas Moses, 27, who also shot to death a 28-​year old woman, Antoinetta Yvonne McKoy, police and prosecutors say.

Now that prosecutors have revealed Moses’s motivation for thinking four-year old Jardon was gay, we also learned on Friday they asked for the death penalty in this tragic North Carolina case. Moses now faces two counts of first-degree murder.

(05-02-2012 09:09 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  More Christian Love from a religious leader in North Carolina:

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/boy...7/31/24662

A four-year old boy was shot to death by his common-law father, a religious leader who thought the boy was gay, because he had slapped another boy’s behind. As The New Civil Rights Movement reported earlier this month, four-year old Jadon Higganbothan was murdered by Peter Lucas Moses, 27, who also shot to death a 28-​year old woman, Antoinetta Yvonne McKoy, police and prosecutors say.

Now that prosecutors have revealed Moses’s motivation for thinking four-year old Jardon was gay, we also learned on Friday they asked for the death penalty in this tragic North Carolina case. Moses now faces two counts of first-degree murder.

Thank God Atheist never abuse or kill their kids!

(05-02-2012 09:09 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  More Christian Love from a religious leader in North Carolina:
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/boy...7/31/24662
A four-year old boy was shot to death by his common-law father, a religious leader who thought the boy was gay, because he had slapped another boy’s behind. As The New Civil Rights Movement reported earlier this month, four-year old Jadon Higganbothan was murdered by Peter Lucas Moses, 27, who also shot to death a 28-​year old woman, Antoinetta Yvonne McKoy, police and prosecutors say.
Now that prosecutors have revealed Moses’s motivation for thinking four-year old Jardon was gay, we also learned on Friday they asked for the death penalty in this tragic North Carolina case. Moses now faces two counts of first-degree murder.

Explain something for me.

Why is it that when something like this happens, it's "Christians" doing it, but when al Qaeda destroys the WTC or Major Hassan shoots up Fort Hood it's a outlier in an otherwise peaceful religion?

This nutcase's actions are no more or less a reflection on Christianity than al Qaeda's or Major Hassan's are on Islam. A little objectivity and consistency would be appropriate.

(05-02-2012 09:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Explain something for me.

Why is it that when something like this happens, it's "Christians" doing it, but when al Qaeda destroys the WTC or Major Hassan shoots up Fort Hood it's a outlier in an otherwise peaceful religion?

This nutcase's actions are no more or less a reflection on Christianity than al Qaeda's or Major Hassan's are on Islam. A little objectivity and consistency would be appropriate.

I think most Christians and Muslims - although deluded by superstition - are generally peaceful. It's usually the Christians and the right wingers who consider Muslims to be largely a violent religion and culture, and Muslims probably feel the same way about Christians. I personally don't want to live under the grip of EITHER of them.

But the reality is this - we are in the US and Christianity holds sway here. It is the Christians that are powerful in this country and using their beliefs to directly impact the lives of others. So what other religions do is not really relevant to this discussion. We're not dealing with Muslims here. (And if we were, it would be far worse most likely, given Muslim attitudes towards gays.)

There is a large segment of the Christian public, including leadership, who views gay people as something less than human: defective, amoral, untrustworthy, not worthy of living their lives out in happiness with equal rights, not worthy to raise kids, etc... There is a real venom out there among many Christians - all one has to do is read an article about gay rights and view the comments "Christians" make on any news site, or see the anti-gay rallies, or read some of the blogs or commentaries. And these Christians approach it all through some moral high ground, as if their belief in bronze-age folklore gives them the right to decide who is living their life right, or wrong. It gives them - in their minds - freedom to fight the rights of others, to hate, to even "punch" their 4 year olds in the name of God. Gay people have been murdered specifically because of this; beaten, intimidated, run out of town. It's not a few crazy outliers. Look at the drive to pass some of these laws. Hell, Tennessee tried to pass a law so that even the word "Gay" or any discussion of it was banned from public schools, as if pretending something doesn't exist, or not talking about it, will make it go away.

There are Christians who take different views. There are churches who welcome gay people, and don't view a difference in orientation as a sin. They celebrate love and commitment. But that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

So yeah - - the topic here, since this is a "Christian nation" as you folks like to say - - isn't Islam. It's Christianity. And there is an ugliness that is showing it's face again and again and again, and instead of justifying it or explaining it away or saying "Well, the Muslims are even worse", maybe some of you folks should open your eyes to what's going on around you and try and reclaim your religion from those who use it's teachings to hold down, bully, commit violence, propagate shame and hate and unworthiness on others.