I'm saying that if a program as bad as Tech could become a national powerhouse by being affiliated with the Big East, then ANYBODY can do it.

Do you disagree with that statement?

Quote:But to give the BE all the credit in Va Tech's rise is absurd.

Sorry if it looked like I was giving the BE all the credit. Coaches, fan support, etc. are a huge part of VPI's success, but they wouldn't have achieved national prominence in CUSA.

Quote:In your case you are making a prediction with nothing to base it on except hope.

There is a LITTLE bit more to my thinking USF will be a top 20 program than just hope. Ever consider the talent pool in the state of Florida and immediate Tampa area? How about sudden access to the BCS? What about that recruiting class that was #1 among CUSA AND the Big East this past year?

Texas and Californina produce more D-1 players than Florida and each has many schools that don't "become Va tech's." here is the point nfl...since Miami, VT and BC left many big east fans, especially from the new schools, have beat this drum about the new schools taking their place. There is zero evidence that it can happen. Is it possible...well yes..I could hit the lottery next week too.
The Big East got raped raw in football and you have to accept that. That doesn't amke them a bad league but you can't plug in three 'noname' football schools and expect them to replace the Miami Hurricanes and the other two as well.

Quote: Texas and Californina produce more D-1 players than Florida and each has many schools that don't "become Va tech's."

I do believe I said that coaching and fan support is a big part of it. But could you just go ahead and list the schools that don't "become VTs." in Texas and Cali for me (not denying it, but I want to see who in particular you are talking about).

Quote:That doesn't amke them a bad league but you can't plug in three 'noname' football schools and expect them to replace the Miami Hurricanes and the other two as well.

Of course not. At least not immediately.

Quote:There is zero evidence that it can happen. Is it possible...well yes..I could hit the lottery next week too.

I like how you use these wildly outlandish and unlikely events to compare to a completely different scenerio to make UC, UL, and USF improvement seem impossible. USF becoming a top 20 program seems a little less insane than you winning the lottery or me predicting the stock market in ten years.

In short, is it possible that a bad or mediocre program can reach the level of a top 20 program in part or even mainly because of BCS conference affiliation? You seem to want to deny that it's even possible, when clearly (Virginia Tech?) it is.

I don't deny that its possible but the odds are it is unlikely. You and others sometime phrase it as if it is likely to happen, it is not.
Here is what you are doing...
lets say the SWC breaks up in '94 and Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU decide to keep the league together and just replace the departing teams. Hummm, lets take North texas, Texas- El Paso, La tech and Tulsa.
We'll figure UTEP will become the next texas, UNT will become the next Texas A&M, La Tech will become texas tech and Tulsa will become Baylor (oh well) we might add Ark State and say they will become Arkansas.
Only one of these is likely to happen Baylor/Tulsa but Baylor wasn't good in the SWC anyway.
I'm just point out the amout of rationalizing you are doing. Its wishful thinking, not logic.

nflsucks Wrote:

Quote:Memphis is likely going to eventually end up in the Big East. Hopefully a split will occur down the road.

If this is true, then I want to stick with the basketball schools forever. Do you have any insider information or is this just your educated opinion?

Quote:Would you rather have Memphis or Navy in All-Sports?

Neither. I'd rather have Umass, Nova, or Delaware come up to 1-A before either.

Quote:The only reason the Big East didn't pick up Memphis and ECU was likely because the Big East didn't have any space.

I don't think so. ECU has bad football, bad basketball, and a small market dwarfed by the other 4 NC schools. If their history of being good is so important, then why is Memphis being considered? They have a history of sucking mightily.

Someone who had inside info on the Memphis board on the old C-USA board said that Memphis almost got in. The biggest culprits were supposedly Boston College and Syracuse. Syracuse makes sense since they were worried about geography.

Quote:I'm saying that if a program as bad as Tech could become a national powerhouse by being affiliated with the Big East, then ANYBODY can do it.

Do you disagree with that statement?

Yes I do disagree with that statement.

1. Because as I already pointed out Va Tech already had a history of being a solid football program. When it joined the Be it was already on the road to recovery. The BE helped, but IMO Va Tech could have accomplished what it did in any conference.

and 2. Evidently ANYBODY can't, because being in the Big East hasn't helped Rutgers and/or Temple accomplish anything more than what they had accomplished as eastern indy's. It also hasn't helped WVU, Syracuse, BC or Pittsburgh improve their positions from their eastern indy days in any way....with maybe the exception of BC since they will be moving up in their level of competition next year in the ACC.

Quote: I don't deny that its possible

Thank you.

Quote:but the odds are it is unlikely.

No more unlikely than Tech's rise to national prominence. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens, won't we?

Quote:I'm just point out the amout of rationalizing you are doing. Its wishful thinking, not logic.

I've already listed actual logical reasons why USF could become a top 20 program, I'm not going to keep doing it because you can't accept it.

Quote:Because as I already pointed out Va Tech already had a history of being a solid football program.

Sorta like Louisville, right?

VPI was solid? More like average and inconsistent. In the years leading up to round robin play in the Big East, Virginia Tech's records were 6-5, 10-1, 2-9, 3-8, 6-4-1, 6-5, 5-6, 2-8-1 in that order. Not quite the level they were when they left the Big East.

Quote:but IMO Va Tech could have accomplished what it did in any conference.

Something tells me VPI wouldn't have gotten the recruits they did after going to Gator and Orange and Sugar Bowls if they would have routinely went to the Liberty Bowl. Just a hunch.

Quote:Evidently ANYBODY can't, because being in the Big East hasn't helped Rutgers and/or Temple accomplish anything more than what they had accomplished as eastern indy's.

ANYBODY can, yes, but not EVERYBODY does. As I said, it's about coaching and fan support, too, which these schools had little of both in Big East times.

Quote:with maybe the exception of BC since they will be moving up in their level of competition next year in the ACC.

Duke, meet BC, your new cellar mate.

I don't deny that its possible but the odds are it is unlikely. You and others sometime phrase it as if it is likely to happen, it is not.

The reason people are rationalizing that it might happen is because, unlike you, we have info on the incoming schools. All 3 of the incoming Big East schools have had significant jumps in recruiting. Louisville just got a prized quarterback, South Florida has one of the better recruiting classes in the nation, and Cincinnati just picked up a star running back and a big time quarterback. And this was without the benefit of the Big East save for a few situations. You're the only one claiming that Big East fans are saying that the new schools will "take their place". Nobody said they would, even the Big East schools and incoming schools. What we have said is that there will be more parity, and better balance in the conference and while there won't necessarily be a powerhouse outside of potentially West Virginia, the Big East will look better. Example, in the past Miami dominated and there might be another Top 25 team, but everyone looked at it as "Miami's" conference. Now, the new Big East will force schools to upgrade their football programs and instead of having one dominate program and a few decent programs, the Big East can put themselves in position to have one Top 10 or 12 program (West Virginia), potentially a second one, and 2 or 3 Top 25 programs. That IS possible, that's not wishful thinking. West Virginia, Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville have all been Top 25 programs in recent years. You can't replace Miami, but you can better your situation. A Big East without Miami might not be dominant, but it would be formidable. And it would look better. While it wouldn't be better, the Big East with a #10 West Virginia, #15 Louisville, #17 Pittsburgh and #23 Syracuse would look better then #1 Miami and maybe a #15 West Virginia even if the situation isn't better. I'd rather have a conference with more Top 25 teams then one that relies on one team. That is the Big East's fault, the Big East should have built Top 25 teams around Miami. Hopefully losing Miami will force Pitt and Syracuse to get back to their recent level so that the Big East can have a handful of Top 25 teams. Because that is the only way you're going to gain respect if you're the Big East. West Virginia and Louisville should be Top 25 teams this year and Pitt's schedule should allow them to sneak back into the Top 25, Syracuse has a chance to get back into the Top 25. Get 3 teams into the Top 25 (which is more then possible), and possibly a 4th and the Big East suddenly looks like a solid, balanced conference. That IS doable, because those schools have shown to be Top 25 caliber programs.

Here is what you are doing...
lets say the SWC breaks up in '94 and Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU decide to keep the league together and just replace the departing teams. Hummm, lets take North texas, Texas- El Paso, La tech and Tulsa.

We'll figure UTEP will become the next texas, UNT will become the next Texas A&M, La Tech will become texas tech and Tulsa will become Baylor (oh well) we might add Ark State and say they will become Arkansas.
Only one of these is likely to happen Baylor/Tulsa but Baylor wasn't good in the SWC anyway.
I'm just point out the amout of rationalizing you are doing. Its wishful thinking, not logic.

What?

Yes I do disagree with that statement.

1. Because as I already pointed out Va Tech already had a history of being a solid football program. When it joined the Be it was already on the road to recovery. The BE helped, but IMO Va Tech could have accomplished what it did in any conference.


Well the Virginia Tech coach disagree with you. Frank Beamer said the Big East allowed him to get into homes he couldn't get into before and that Virginia Tech wouldn't have been as good as they are now without the Big East. Virginia Tech wouldn't have accomplished what they did in "any conference", only a BCS conference.

and 2. Evidently ANYBODY can't, because being in the Big East hasn't helped Rutgers and/or Temple accomplish anything more than what they had accomplished as eastern indy's. It also hasn't helped WVU, Syracuse, BC or Pittsburgh improve their positions from their eastern indy days in any way....with maybe the exception of BC since they will be moving up in their level of competition next year in the ACC.

Lets see, Syracuse finished in the Top 15 several years back, West Virginia is a preseason Top 10 or 15 team and considered the favorite to go to a BCS bowl and has been in the Top 25 the last few years, Pitt was a Top 10 team last year and considered a preseason contender to the national championship, BC is considered a serious contender to the Big East title, has built up the basketball program and only got invited to the ACC because they were successful in the Big East. You're right, the Big East did NOTHING to improve their status. Heck, it's already improving Louisville and Cincinnati's recruiting, which will shown next year. You'll always have exceptions to the rules, but you seemed to conveniently leave out that Temple got kicked out of the Big East for refusing to improve their athletic facility, which is the reason they DIDN'T succeed in the Big East. And nobody has really mentioned basketball. Only someone ignorant of athletics would say that the Big East did nothing to improve those schools status.

Come on Cat...you are smarter than that. The Big East was crippled by the powers that left. Even Trangese knows that. You cant replace three teams like that with three who don't have one single top ten finish between them and put out all this worthless hype. Its a decent league but it was weak BEFORE the three left. OU people screamed all the time about Miami being #1 playing a Big East schedule. Come on back down to earth, its nice down here.

You are like trying to talk to a brick wall, you know that?

Quote:The Big East was crippled by the powers that left.

No, being crippled would involve losing the BCS bid, but instead, we have it with no special conditions, AND the Big East STILL has a team in the preseason top 12.

Quote:You cant replace three teams like that with three who don't have one single top ten finish between them

How many times in this thread have I responded to this? :bang:

There is no response to it. You have replaced the Miami Hurricanes with frickin louisville....wake up...the coffee is on.

Here's a response, the three teams will improve with BCS access.

Oh and the Big East still has a team in the top 12.

Pre season polls don't count nfl....tell me about the top 12 in december.

I plan to. WVU has risen from preseason polls in the past two years, and I have a good feeling we will do the same this year.

Quote:Well the Virginia Tech coach disagree with you. Frank Beamer said the Big East allowed him to get into homes he couldn't get into before and that Virginia Tech wouldn't have been as good as they are now without the Big East. Virginia Tech wouldn't have accomplished what they did in "any conference", only a BCS conference.

Considering the fact that Va Tech had already turned it around before the creation of the BCS...I wouldn't bet the farm on the fact that the BCS had a hand in the turnaround.

Quote:Lets see, Syracuse finished in the Top 15 several years back

And before the Big East they finished in 4th in '87.

Quote:West Virginia is a preseason Top 10 or 15 team and considered the favorite to go to a BCS bowl and has been in the Top 25 the last few years

Ah..the love afair with WVU. Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that other than WVU, Maryland, and BC they play a very weak schedule.
And they have been in the final top 25 twice since the formation of the BE....the same number of times they accomplished the same thing in '88 & '89.

Quote:Pitt was a Top 10 team last year and considered a preseason contender to the national championship

How'd that turn out again?

Pitt has finished in the Top 25 once since the formation of the BE.

Quote:BC is considered a serious contender to the Big East title, has built up the basketball program and only got invited to the ACC because they were successful in the Big East.

The fact that BC was in the BE was not a factor in their invitation to the ACC. The fact that BC is a traditional solid football program, a fine academic institution, and most importantly located in a major media market were the factors. Basketball was not part of the equation either....the ACC didn't follow the Be and go after a basketball solution to a football problem.

Quote:You'll always have exceptions to the rules, but you seemed to conveniently leave out that Temple got kicked out of the Big East for refusing to improve their athletic facility, which is the reason they DIDN'T succeed in the Big East.

Temple plays football in a brand new football facility, Lincoln Financial Field....home of the Eagles.

Quote:And nobody has really mentioned basketball.

Explaint to me how the BE improved VT & Miami's basketball.

Quote:Considering the fact that Va Tech had already turned it around before the creation of the BCS...I wouldn't bet the farm on the fact that the BCS had a hand in the turnaround.

Okay, you are right, the Big East had nothing to do with VPI reaching the level they did. Frank Beamer is wrong, you clearly know the Tech program better than the head coach. :stupid:

Quote:Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that other than WVU, Maryland, and BC they play a very weak schedule.

Exact same schedule we always play except no Miami. Exactly how far do you think we would drop simply because of one different team on the schedule?

Quote:The fact that BC is a traditional solid football program, a fine academic institution, and most importantly located in a major media market were the factors.

Well, you're a third right. Market drove BC's inclusion. Traditional solid football program? 4th or 5th place is the highest they ever finished in the Big East.

Quote:Explaint to me how the BE improved VT & Miami's basketball.

How about you explain to me what it did for Uconn. Again, ANYBODY can, not EVERYBODY does.

West Virginia is the only team in that league that can consistently play top 10 football 'under the right circumstances.' Syracuse and Pitt are tired old programs, they don't have the poop to come back to a top 10 level on a consistent basis. OU and LSU would mop up the floor with louisville and Cincy. You have to look at it in terms of being as good as Miami and OU or your league will fall out. It won't be enought to have a 12 team now and then. If you don;'t have at least two CONSISTENT title contenders the negative publicity will kick in. I think we'll end up with the Big Five before the smoke clears. MT said last week they will reevauate after the 2007 season. You'll have to play your asses off tho have a shot.

Quote:West Virginia is the only team in that league that can consistently play top 10 football 'under the right circumstances.'

What circumstances might those be? The past two years our biggest hurdles have been Miami, Wisconsin, and Maryland. Guess what? Two of those are gone for good. I guess the circumstances are right.

Quote:If you don;'t have at least two CONSISTENT title contenders the negative publicity will kick in. I think we'll end up with the Big Five before the smoke clears.

If we continue to meet the requirements that the "Big 5" are subject to, they really can't kick us out, can they?