(01-24-2013 03:08 PM)Gmoney4WW Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:48 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 12:14 AM)GameParson Wrote:  Agreed. I definitely wouldn't be upset with a Tulsa add, especially if the BCS revenue split made it worthwhile. But to be frank, none of the teams we're talking about adding meet enough of the criteria to be an immediate contributor to the overall financial value of this conference. The only benefit to UMass or Charlotte is their potential on many levels is greater than the ceiling that Tulsa faces. Tulsa is great for an immediate fix to some of problems (mainly competitiveness), but in the long run it's not the best add. While Tulsa could become a national brand, it's not likely they'll ever have the number of supporters behind them to make that become a reality. And growing supporters is a much harder task for a smaller school than say ECU/UCF which have the foundations to become more prominent teams. But we'll see what our "fearless leaders" think is best.

[

Just curious Scream, have you ever been to the city of Tulsa? Have you the Univeristy Campus in the last 10 years? And are you aware of the schools historical football tradition?

By the way I do not live in Oklahoma. But the city of Tulsa is a dynamic and growing regional energy and banking center in a growing part of the country. The University is very well funded and building new facilaties everywhere you look. It can grow to whatever size it chooses ot too and I suspect will after it achieves its goal of moving from its currant mid 70's to a top 50 academic ranking. I can't argue with you about current TV potential but I think your "ceiling" arguemtn is invalid. Ten to 20 years from now Tulsa will be an even better choice. By the way did you see what our BB team composed of injured freshman did to Houston tonight.

Never been to Tulsa, but I've been to OU before and had a great time out there.

1. Academics don't mean anything in the Big East. If you look up sports conference academic rankings, we're 6th on the list of 6 major football conferences.

2. Tulsa jumped in the ranking partially but decreasing its undergraduate enrollment going from 5,500 students to 4,500 students. So the school can build all the new buildings in the world, but that does not change that the moves of the university today will create fewer alumni in the future.

3. It doesn't matter how good your team is if it's not a recognizable national brand that attracts ratings. Can Tulsa become a brand like Boise or TCU? Maybe, but it's less likely as there hasn't been a single consistent Top 25 football team in the past 10 years with less than 10,000 students. In fact, I would guess that 24 out of 25 of the top football schools have an enrollment higher than 20,000 students.

I'm not saying that Tulsa doesn't have a great football tradition. I've said many times that I would be okay with them being added. But no one can deny looking at the facts that there is a ceiling for Tulsa. Of course, glass ceilings can be broken through, but keep in mind that in the 235 years this country has been around we've never had a single woman President (just a fact to point out that glass ceilings are heard to break).

Tulsa could do very well in the future, but there are a lot of headwinds going against a smaller school trying to rise to prominence in a sport that is dominated by high enrollment, name-brand schools. Can Tulsa build a following without the foundation of large alumni networks, metro regions, etc that many of these power teams have? Only the future can tell. For now, all we can do is debate our points and hope for the best.

_________________
You talk about being a glass ceiling for us, and that there aren't any schools with an annual student populace of less than 10.000 students who have been in the top 25 for the last 10 years. There is not that many schools with a student enrollment of less than 10,000 in all of FBS football. Schools that are close to us in enrollment are Rice, Army, & Wake Forest. There will never be many schools with comparable enrollment to us in the top 25, because there aren't that many. Does that say we should be eliminated from the equation? I think not. Of the schools we are grouped with because of enrollment, we have done quite admirably, and we have the will, the money, and the fortitude to break through that glass ceiling that those four university's have before them. And you use the fact that there has never been a woman president. This is quite ironic, considering a black man was re-elected to the office of the Presidency, and he beat a Hispanic Mormon to achieve that re-election. Some(not all) of the logic that you use seems to be flawed in one respect or another. We have to win over a following that consists of non-alumni. One of the only ways to do that is by winning.
[/quote]

I clearly stated that glass ceilings can be broken, but it's difficult. What's the reason for why there have been zero schools with enrollment under 10,000 in the Top 25 football programs over the past 10 years? It's because of all the factors that we've talked about: number of living alumni, metro size, brand name, etc etc. On top of that, the Top 25 programs have to be able to attract a following in real life and on TV...otherwise, networks like ESPN just don't cover you enough to help you climb the ranks.

Winning can only get you so far. The odds are highly stacked against Tulsa on so many levels. It's a great program -- I will not deny that. But its potential is limited because it is much harder for Tulsa to grow supporters than it is for ECU and UCF to win more games. There's no doubt in my mind that ECU could become the next WVU or UCF could become a UF. They have a high concentration of alumni living in the #10 and #4 most populated states in the country. They are gradually building name recognition, and with the right series of wins, it's easy to see how their programs could take off. Tulsa is in the 28th most populated state (with 1/3 the amount of people as NC and 1/7 the population of Florida). You don't have large alumni base. You don't have a large metro. That doesn't mean you're not a great team -- it just means there are many constraints, and as Tulsa tries to climb the ranks of college football the barriers to entry are going to be steeper than for a schools like UCF or ECU.

I really hope no one thinks I'm putting down any school here. I rarely trash talk a university unless it's out of fun. I just want the Big East to become stronger and better than before, and to do that we have to acknowledge our weaknesses and be strategically clever. Because as a conference, we have our own glass ceilings and it's going to be a rough journey as we attempt to claw our way back to the top.

300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

I don't care anymore...the nbe can add cincinnati state for all I care at this point.

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

(01-25-2013 12:43 AM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

Neither of us are wrong. College sports is one of those things that is like politics -- everyone has an opinion but the majority of people's opinions are mislead by many untruths and personal emotions. College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true. Yet many of us let our emotions distort our ability to think rationally about very fundamental concepts. And that leads to people not changing their opinions or even agreeing to consider the points others are making.

(01-25-2013 01:02 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:43 AM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

Neither of us are wrong. College sports is one of those things that is like politics -- everyone has an opinion but the majority of people's opinions are mislead by many untruths and personal emotions. College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true. Yet many of us let our emotions distort our ability to think rationally about very fundamental concepts. And that leads to people not changing their opinions or even agreeing to consider the points others are making.

I fully understand that college football programs and conferences are indeed required to provide income to meet expenses and compete/excel. We all want the most favorable financial situation possible for our university athletic programs.

However, I disagree with everything that I can muster that college football is not about people, universities, etc. We're not following the NFL, XFL, CFL, etc. We're following programs sponsored by universities that most of us have deep emotional ties to. Most of our players won't be playing on Sundays and will end up being citizens in our own communities, coaching our kids/grandkids, sitting next to us in church, etc, etc. Call me old, call me old fashion, call me an antique; but if you don't have the emotion of college football within you, you might as well be following the Iowa Barnstormers or New Orleans VooDoo.

I think that we've probably uncovered a difference between the typical eastern football fan and the typical southern football fan. For you it's a business; for me it's a lifelong emotional tie that won't be broken.

You are both right and wrong. College sports is rooted in all of those things you mentioned. It is the foundation that this present day monster is built on. However, it is no long about those wonderful attributes. It is a business pure and simple. If any ounce of tradition or any thought were given to the fans, rivalries like UT/TAMU and Mizzou/KU would not have been sacrificed. Maryland would not be leaving the only home its ever known. In the end, this mad dash for cash will be the undoing of college football.

(01-25-2013 02:08 AM)oldtiger Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 01:02 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:43 AM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

Neither of us are wrong. College sports is one of those things that is like politics -- everyone has an opinion but the majority of people's opinions are mislead by many untruths and personal emotions. College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true. Yet many of us let our emotions distort our ability to think rationally about very fundamental concepts. And that leads to people not changing their opinions or even agreeing to consider the points others are making.

I fully understand that college football programs and conferences are indeed required to provide income to meet expenses and compete/excel. We all want the most favorable financial situation possible for our university athletic programs.

However, I disagree with everything that I can muster that college football is not about people, universities, etc. We're not following the NFL, XFL, CFL, etc. We're following programs sponsored by universities that most of us have deep emotional ties to. Most of our players won't be playing on Sundays and will end up being citizens in our own communities, coaching our kids/grandkids, sitting next to us in church, etc, etc. Call me old, call me old fashion, call me an antique; but if you don't have the emotion of college football within you, you might as well be following the Iowa Barnstormers or New Orleans VooDoo.

I think that we've probably uncovered a difference between the typical eastern football fan and the typical southern football fan. For you it's a business; for me it's a lifelong emotional tie that won't be broken.

(01-25-2013 08:42 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  You are both right and wrong. College sports is rooted in all of those things you mentioned. It is the foundation that this present day monster is built on. However, it is no long about those wonderful attributes. It is a business pure and simple. If any ounce of tradition or any thought were given to the fans, rivalries like UT/TAMU and Mizzou/KU would not have been sacrificed. Maryland would not be leaving the only home its ever known. In the end, this mad dash for cash will be the undoing of college football.

[quote='oldtiger' pid='8882686' dateline='1359097718']
[quote='ScreamShatter' pid='8882648' dateline='1359093763']
[quote='Lord2FLI' pid='8882627' dateline='1359092597']
[quote='ScreamShatter' pid='8882561' dateline='1359090192']

Correct. The realignment mess is not about the hard core fans, we are taken for granted in the money equations. This is all about the casual fan and getting onto more cable boxes. Typically, when a business goes through this type of upheaval, there is a plan. Here, there seems to be no plan. Certainly they are not improving their product to entice more customers, in fact, the product is becoming watered down.

As a college sports fan, I do not give two cents about money, markets, alumni, stadiums whatever. I want to see good games and see my Owls compete against good teams. My vote is to add Tulsa now.

(01-25-2013 08:42 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  You are both right and wrong. College sports is rooted in all of those things you mentioned. It is the foundation that this present day monster is built on. However, it is no long about those wonderful attributes. It is a business pure and simple. If any ounce of tradition or any thought were given to the fans, rivalries like UT/TAMU and Mizzou/KU would not have been sacrificed. Maryland would not be leaving the only home its ever known. In the end, this mad dash for cash will be the undoing of college football.

(01-25-2013 02:08 AM)oldtiger Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 01:02 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:43 AM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

Neither of us are wrong. College sports is one of those things that is like politics -- everyone has an opinion but the majority of people's opinions are mislead by many untruths and personal emotions. College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true. Yet many of us let our emotions distort our ability to think rationally about very fundamental concepts. And that leads to people not changing their opinions or even agreeing to consider the points others are making.

I fully understand that college football programs and conferences are indeed required to provide income to meet expenses and compete/excel. We all want the most favorable financial situation possible for our university athletic programs.

However, I disagree with everything that I can muster that college football is not about people, universities, etc. We're not following the NFL, XFL, CFL, etc. We're following programs sponsored by universities that most of us have deep emotional ties to. Most of our players won't be playing on Sundays and will end up being citizens in our own communities, coaching our kids/grandkids, sitting next to us in church, etc, etc. Call me old, call me old fashion, call me an antique; but if you don't have the emotion of college football within you, you might as well be following the Iowa Barnstormers or New Orleans VooDoo.

I think that we've probably uncovered a difference between the typical eastern football fan and the typical southern football fan. For you it's a business; for me it's a lifelong emotional tie that won't be broken.

Simply put, I'm saying that it's about balance. Income is very important but you can't ignore performance. No one is going to tune in or show up to watch a great revenue/expense statement from an athletic program.

It's unfortunate that balance is something that's become a difficult concept to understand in today's black and white conference realignment process.

TV execs and the "power" conferences will learn that choking off the "little" guys will impact their bottom line. As a fan of a "have-not" program I used to watch big games featuring teams from the "big" conferences in BCS bowls, NCGs, and rivalry games bc I had/have a hope that one day my school can reach that level or there was good history and tradition behind them. The realignment mess and the systematic exclusion of half the FBS teams will result in dissolution and disinterest in the overall product by a significant portion of the audience. I will continue to support my team but tune out the rest and watch professional sports. I could not care less about Minnesota at Maryland, Rutgers at Northwestern. Mizzou at Ole Miss. TAMU at USC. Utah at Cal, Iowa St at WVU. There are more games people dont give a f*ck about than games that intrigue. Money I understand, but How much money is necessary? They're not building new facilities annually (yet). You can only recruit but so much. Build but so much. They already pay coaches 4 million in salary. They could afford to pay full cost scholarships any time they choose. They dont need more money.

(01-25-2013 01:02 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true.

I think it is about ALL of those things. Money is certainly important, but not everything. I think perhaps the key word is PRIDE.

(01-25-2013 09:19 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  TV execs and the "power" conferences will learn that choking off the "little" guys will impact their bottom line. As a fan of a "have-not" program I used to watch big games featuring teams from the "big" conferences in BCS bowls, NCGs, and rivalry games bc I had/have a hope that one day my school can reach that level or there was good history and tradition behind them. The realignment mess and the systematic exclusion of half the FBS teams will result in dissolution and disinterest in the overall product by a significant portion of the audience. I will continue to support my team but tune out the rest and watch professional sports. I could not care less about Minnesota at Maryland, Rutgers at Northwestern. Mizzou at Ole Miss. TAMU at USC. Utah at Cal, Iowa St at WVU. There are more games people dont give a f*ck about than games that intrigue. Money I understand, but How much money is necessary? They're not building new facilities annually (yet). You can only recruit but so much. Build but so much. They already pay coaches 4 million in salary. They could afford to pay full cost scholarships any time they choose. They dont need more money.

I agree 95%. The 5% missing is that I don't, nor ever will, give a hoot about pro sports. I'd rather go to high school games than watch over-paid pros play for money.

(01-25-2013 01:02 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:43 AM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 12:03 AM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

That's because people don't think logically about these kinds of things. Instead, they rely on knee jerk reactions to form their opinions -- and knee jerk additions are what Big East leadership is doing.

No, it's because its the internet and no one gives any ground on the internet. Everyone is a blowhard who is overblown, pretentious and convinced they are the only one who sees the light. You are all wrong.

Neither of us are wrong. College sports is one of those things that is like politics -- everyone has an opinion but the majority of people's opinions are mislead by many untruths and personal emotions. College football is not about people, universities, mascots, cheerleaders, etc. College football is a business. It's about revenue and expenses, hiring the best managers, hiring the best teams, marketing, expansion, strategy, etc. We all know this is true. Yet many of us let our emotions distort our ability to think rationally about very fundamental concepts. And that leads to people not changing their opinions or even agreeing to consider the points others are making.

Yeah I don't give a **** about any of that, go to any messageboard, blog, article, anywhere anonymous ******** have free reign to say whatever dumb*** **** they want and you'll find people arguing and refusing to back off ANYTHING they've said, no matter how ******* off base it is. We're no longer allowed to call people with stupid ideas stupid, we are expected to treat their idiotic views as though they are some sort of authority and their opinion somehow matters. Wrong, no one's opinion matters, and ******* ignorant should be called out when they espouse us with their moronic opinions.

You're responding to me because you see it as a challenge to whatever "intellectual" territory you think you've gained in this thread and thus you're trying and convince us of something both hilarious and sad, that internet is not full of ******* idiots, just impassioned fans. Save your breathe, because I call bull****, you gain nothing by continuing to reply in an attempt to one-up me and get the last word. All you're doing is simply proving my point.

And yes, all those pretty little stars are intentional.

All this debate is for nothing.... the decision has been made already

Screamer just likes to post drivel and remind us about capitalism.

I'm looking forward to talking about football.

(01-24-2013 11:23 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 07:12 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  300 posts, and oddly not a soul has changed their mind or stance.

I don't care anymore...the nbe can add cincinnati state for all I care at this point.

Hells yeah! We'd really save on travel costs for olympic sports. That is, if Cincinnati State had olympic sports...

[quote][quote='FrancisDrake' pid='8883063' dateline='1359123591']
TV execs and the "power" conferences will learn that choking off the "little" guys will impact their bottom line. As a fan of a "have-not" program I used to watch big games featuring teams from the "big" conferences in BCS bowls, NCGs, and rivalry games bc I had/have a hope that one day my school can reach that level or there was good history and tradition behind them. The realignment mess and the systematic exclusion of half the FBS teams will result in dissolution and disinterest in the overall product by a significant portion of the audience. I will continue to support my team but tune out the rest and watch professional sports. I could not care less about Minnesota at Maryland, Rutgers at Northwestern. Mizzou at Ole Miss. TAMU at USC. Utah at Cal, Iowa St at WVU. There are more games people dont give a f*ck about than games that intrigue. Money I understand, but How much money is necessary? They're not building new facilities annually (yet). You can only recruit but so much. Build but so much. They already pay coaches 4 million in salary. They could afford to pay full cost scholarships any time they choose. They dont need more money.
[/quote]

This has been one of the things that I simply cannnot believe that the smart money grabbers at the top can't see coming. Those of us who support the 60 to 80 schools who are in danger at some point of being left out follow all of college football because it is our aspiration to one day or at least every once in a while jump up and compete at a top 10 level. Boise does not have a national following because people like Boisie. People outside of their tiny community cheer for them because they have done what we aspire to do. If the possibility of that ever happening is taken away interest in the product will be greatly diminished. Not to mention the lawsuits. But greed always seeks to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

(01-25-2013 09:19 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  TV execs and the "power" conferences will learn that choking off the "little" guys will impact their bottom line. As a fan of a "have-not" program I used to watch big games featuring teams from the "big" conferences in BCS bowls, NCGs, and rivalry games bc I had/have a hope that one day my school can reach that level or there was good history and tradition behind them. The realignment mess and the systematic exclusion of half the FBS teams will result in dissolution and disinterest in the overall product by a significant portion of the audience. I will continue to support my team but tune out the rest and watch professional sports. I could not care less about Minnesota at Maryland, Rutgers at Northwestern. Mizzou at Ole Miss. TAMU at USC. Utah at Cal, Iowa St at WVU. There are more games people dont give a f*ck about than games that intrigue. Money I understand, but How much money is necessary? They're not building new facilities annually (yet). You can only recruit but so much. Build but so much. They already pay coaches 4 million in salary. They could afford to pay full cost scholarships any time they choose. They dont need more money.

Amen brother. If the big conferences cause my school's team to wither on the vine, they won't be getting my eyes on their games and they won't be getting the money from my pocket that now goes to my school.

I was there this past season. As a background, I was the kind of guy who used watch college football all day long. I would get up in the morning and watch College Gameday, start watching a game at noon and would still be watching late in the evening/early in the morning to watch a West Coast game.

Last year, I just couldn't do it anymore. Watching Gameday is brutal anymore. All it is a bunch of elitist taking potshots at schools like my alma mater and making excuses for schools in Power Conferences for underperforming. This even boils over into the games. You new Big East teams will quickly find out (if you haven't already), the talking heads will trash the Big East even if it is two PAC12 schools playing at the time.

Even if they are not acting like complete tools, I find myself very angry watching teams like BC, Duke, Wake Forest, Minnesota, Purdue, Vandy, Mississippi State, Kansas, Iowa State, TCU, Washington State and Oregon State sit pretty while my alma mater is told they are a midmajor and they need to accept whatever scraps they get and like it.


There are a lot of graduates of the schools that are potentially being left out. My alma mater for example has over 200K living alumni. We are not alone in this regard. When it all boils down to it, some will keep watching but there will be millions who will turn the television sets off. If I had to guess I am going to say the NFL is going to see a nice bump in a few years.