(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

Let's not also forget that the under the new playoff system the SBC even if it finishes ranked last among the G5 conferences will be hauling in 12-15 million dollars of playoff money every year. That far exceeeds the 5 million or so the MVC receives from the NCAA tournament.

We've come to the tipping point where the value of FBS memberships exceeds any arrangement a school can maintain at the top scholarship level in FCS. I'm not saying Missouri State is a lock to jump but hardly is MVC basketball membership a barrier.

New Mexico St for football only and their other sports go to the Big West like Boise was going to do.

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 since Missouri State's last appearance despite playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

Ouch...lol

(02-20-2013 12:30 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  New Mexico St for football only and their other sports go to the Big West like Boise was going to do.

don't think the Big West would do that quite frankly. NMSU doesn't have the $$$ to pay the travel subsidy like Boise did.

(02-20-2013 12:37 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

Ouch...lol

I believe Waterford is referring to conference depth. There is no denying that top to bottom the MVC is a deeper and better league in hoops than the Sun Belt. The same thing comes up on the MAC board when discussing UMass. They haven't made the NCAA tourney since the 90s yet still balk at moving hoops to the MAC.

It is an intersting way to look at it but the perception (dare I say presitge) in playing hoops in a multiple bid league without fielding a program that normally secures one of those bids is better than moving to a league that traditionally secures only one bid and having to fight your way through perceived lesser competition to get that bid. If your program is so good and has been seasoning in a better league for so many years, shouldn't you then be able to play down a level and run the table? The logic seems flawed as ultimately under that scenario you run the table and make the tournament which ironically you aren't doing now. The drawback, you get upset and miss out on the bid only to be right back where you started and missing the tournament.

I will say though I can see the argument of while not necessarily being a better team in said league, there is a draw to playing better teams regularly. Trading Creighton for UL Monroe doesn't have the same sizzle on the schedule similar to UMass trading Xavier for Eastern Michigan in the MAC. The problem I have is that these programs need to figure out their identity. If you want to go FBS then that's the move. If your priority is hoops in a strong bball only league then drop the football dream. Just pick one. The BE was the ultimate hybrid fantasy, if those programs with all their history and backing couldn't figure it out, then how is Missouri State or other any other FBS wannabe going to suddenly command that respect.

Personnally I don't care if Missouri State goes to the Sunbelt and if that is a beneficial thing to them than they should. More power to them.

Let's address a couple of things. Yes the Sunbelt is an inferior basketball league compared to the Missouri Valley Conference. Look at Sagarin to see the difference if in doubt. It's nice that Western Kentucky has gone to so many NCAA tournaments but since the point made was comparing conferences how many Sunbelt schools have gone to the NCAA or NIT compared to Missouri Valley schools and what has been their respective records in post season play?

If football pays the bills, as was suggested, why did I read recently that the MAC schools lose on average right at a million dollars a year with FBS football. The article went on to say that even NIU, arguably one of the best MAC football teams over the last several years, has to subsidize their football program because it loses money when it has to stand on it's on.

Like I said earlier, I have no problem with Missouri State going to the Sunbelt or even the MAC or CUSA for that matter. All I am saying is I wouldn't assume it to be a slam dunk (sorry for the basketball metaphor).

If I was Missouri State, I'd want an MWC invite. I respect the MWC as that conference is strong in both basketball and football.

(02-20-2013 01:35 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  Yes the Sunbelt is an inferior basketball league compared to the Missouri Valley Conference. Look at Sagarin to see the difference if in doubt. It's nice that Western Kentucky has gone to so many NCAA tournaments but since the point made was comparing conferences how many Sunbelt schools have gone to the NCAA or NIT compared to Missouri Valley schools and what has been their respective records in post season play?

I'd rather be first in a 1-bid league most years than fourth in a 3-bid league most years. But that's just me.

Either way, living vicariously off of conference-mates only goes so far.

Having 4 of our teams get screwed out of NCAAs for at-large bids stings alot including the year we were league champions. Of course Doug Eligin is a lousy commissoner who doesn't care for us. It would suck to take the down grade in basketball but if it means moving the university forward I am for it.

point should be made, if Creighton and/or Wichita St leave, the gap between the MVC and the Sun Belt closes considerably.

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 since Missouri State's last appearance despite playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

People forget how much tradition the SBC has in basketball. The SBC in its history has placed as many as 4 teams in the NCAA tournament.

The way its looking right now, the SBC may not even lose anymore teams to CUSA. The BE may end up just playing with 10 all-sports if Navy leaves. That is an easier road to a Access Bowl than having to go through a conference championship game.

If the SBC goes out and adds Missouri State and New Mexico State that would add a lot of punch on the basketball side of things to the conference. The geography of the SBC vs. MVC is probably about a push for Missouri St as UALR, Ark St, ULM and UTA aren't that far away. Is Troy and South Alabama convienient to travel to for Missouri State? Probably not but Indiana St and Evansville aren't exactly easy trips either.

Revenue sharing in the SBC for football would be worth the extra 20 scholarships, IMO. Missouri St isn't going to be able to get the crowds without playing at the top level.

(02-20-2013 02:38 PM)stever20 Wrote:  point should be made, if Creighton and/or Wichita St leave, the gap between the MVC and the Sun Belt closes considerably.

Without Creighton there isn't much difference between the SBC and MVC.

Not enough at least to be delaying your FBS football over.

(02-20-2013 02:40 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 since Missouri State's last appearance despite playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

Probably not but Indiana St and Evansville aren't exactly easy trips either.

Both are 2 1/2 hours from St. Louis on interstates. Real easy for bus travel and basketball flys charter into the city.

(02-20-2013 02:46 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 02:40 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 since Missouri State's last appearance despite playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

Probably not but Indiana St and Evansville aren't exactly easy trips either.

Both are 2 1/2 hours from St. Louis on interstates. Real easy for bus travel and basketball flys charter into the city.

Springfield is not that close to St. Louis though.

Schools only lose money because they choose to lose money. Hell there aren't but a few schools in the Rich 5 leagues that don't lose money at least some years.

Maryland's annual deficit is generally about the size of a Valley or Sun Belt athletic budget.

As to what comes from being in a successful league.

Are you a tick or a dog?

If you aren't racking up the successes, then you are just riding someone else's success.

Would you rather be Washington State and not have played in a bowl game in a decade or Boise State? Except the difference is there is no real difference in Sun Belt and Valley revenue and once the CFP kicks in after next season the revenue difference will tilt well to the Sun Belt's favor.

Funny how important it seems to be "in a good league". OK, let's look at UNLV. Left the deary Big West for the WAC then MWC. Formerly one of the great names of college basketball. 19 NCAA appearances but only 7 of those since moving to "a good league". Ten Sweet 16 but only one since moving to "a good league". Five Elite Eight, four Final Fours, one national title and not one of those since moving to "a good league".

Missouri State has moved to "a good league" and they have had six NCAA appearances, four prior to the Valley, two after joining, BUT one of those NCAA appearances in the Valley had a roster at least partially recruited to play in a bad conference.

So really all Missouri State has gained is some good knowledge of the Valley teams when they fill their bracket out.

(02-20-2013 02:43 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 02:38 PM)stever20 Wrote:  point should be made, if Creighton and/or Wichita St leave, the gap between the MVC and the Sun Belt closes considerably.

Without Creighton there isn't much difference between the SBC and MVC.

Not enough at least to be delaying your FBS football over.

Louis, I'm not sure I totally agree with that but if Creighton leaves it doesn't help. On the other hand, if WKU gets an invite to CUSA that would also hurt the Sunbelt.

As for The Valley, Wichita State is left and based on their geography likely not going anywhere. Can we forget what UNI has done recently? Bradley has been down the last few years due to previous coach but the new coach is turning it around and I anticipate they will be back to their former selves next year. Illinois State has not been to the NCAA in many years due to a couple bad coaching hires but they have been in the NIT four of the last five years and with the way they are playing right now going to the post season this year looks probable. Missouri State may not have been to the NCAA (screwed very badly about 5 years back or so) but they too have been to many post season tournaments. Of course this is a mute point if they go Sunbelt.

As I said earlier, if Missouri State finds the Sunbelt attractive and feels it betters their position, then they should go for it. As i recall, they had this chance about 10 years ago and turned it down then. Perhaps things are different now.

I think it would be interesting to hear what some Missouri State fans have to say on this.

(02-20-2013 02:55 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 02:46 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 02:40 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:35 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 12:03 PM)Waterford Rider Wrote:  I have no inside knowledge nor am I associated with Missouri State in any sort of way. However, I find it difficult to believe Missouri State would give up their place at the table of the Missouri Valley Conference as that league is far far and away much better at bball than the Sunbelt. Not even a close comparison. While football is growing somewhat at MSU let's not forget that it is a basketball school first.

In two decades+ in the Valley, Missouri State has made two NCAA appearances, the most recent 14 years ago.

Western Kentucky has made six NCAA appearances, two round of 32 appearances and a Sweet 16 since Missouri State's last appearance despite playing basketball in the inferior basketball league, Sun Belt.

Probably not but Indiana St and Evansville aren't exactly easy trips either.

Both are 2 1/2 hours from St. Louis on interstates. Real easy for bus travel and basketball flys charter into the city.

Springfield is not that close to St. Louis though.

2 1/2 hours from Springfield, straight shot on the interstate.

(02-20-2013 11:51 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Chris I don't think the western teams are thrilled about going into North Carolina or deeper into Georgia. I suspect they would prefer a Chattanooga/Missouri State solution if either is prepared to go FBS.

Chattanooga has been the doormat of the SoCon for 20 years and Missouri St has had one winning season in the last 20. Both teams struggle with attendance and neither have made the FCS playoffs in over 20 years. Not exactly a recipe for success to improve the Sun Belt's football product. But if a conference's primary mission is to promote good travel routes, then I guess they should be considered. Forget the fact App State and Ga Southern have more national titles than these teams have had winning seasons.

(02-20-2013 06:32 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 11:51 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Chris I don't think the western teams are thrilled about going into North Carolina or deeper into Georgia. I suspect they would prefer a Chattanooga/Missouri State solution if either is prepared to go FBS.

Chattanooga has been the doormat of the SoCon for 20 years and Missouri St has had one winning season in the last 20. Both teams struggle with attendance and neither have made the FCS playoffs in over 20 years. Not exactly a recipe for success to improve the Sun Belt's football product. But if a conference's primary mission is to promote good travel routes, then I guess they should be considered. Forget the fact App State and Ga Southern have more national titles than these teams have had winning seasons.

Shocking as this may seem, there ARE sports other than football and it would take half a season for some of the candidates to draw the same number of people Missouri State has for a single home basketball game or two or three men's home games to draw what the Bears have women's basketball at a single game.

Basketball is becoming more and more irrelevant every day. The Sun Belt is a football conference so it would be odd to invest in a declining product (basketball) that already does not fit the conference profile (football)